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The W - Current Events & Politics - Nice editorial on Affirmative Action
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Since: 26.6.02
From: New Jersey, USA

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#1 Posted on
I never would have thought I'd agree with anything said by someone calling themselves a "feminist" but I dig what this chick has to say:
Affirmative Action Insults Immigrant Contributions




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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Wendy McElroy is not a feminist per se. She generally rallies against modern day feminism in its current left-wing/Martha Burk type state. This is typical of her excellent work...

(edited by Grimis on 10.12.02 1412)


LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#3 Posted on
God... this article echos shit I have been saying for years. Sadly, the response will be - she will be ignored, or demonized.
The MLKJr "I Have a Dream" is one thing I like to point out when arguing against Affirmitive Action... of course the point is rarely gotten.
McElroy just got a fan... I might have to start looking for her columns!




3 out of 5 Statisticians agree- Statistics are all bull$hit!
"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#4 Posted on
You cannot compare the immigrant experience to the Black and Native American experience.

Every American has some version of McElroy's "poor Irish Grandparents" story. That's the norm for America. That's a very different thing from the historic inequities that Black and Native Americans went through.

I personally think adding "Hispanics," "Asians," and to some extent Carribean and African immigrants to the whole affirmative action, we-were-oppressed mix is utterly ridiculous. These groups are going through the same thing all immigrant groups to the U.S. went through, and they aren't owed anything more than the opportunity America provided previous immigrant groups.

Now, Blacks, who were made to work for free for hundreds of years, and then not given the equal opportunites America provided for another hundred, I think we owe something to. The descendents of the people who enslaved them are benefiting from their work, so I think the decendents of the people who did the work should benefit too. The details are, of course, very complicated and I won't pretend I figured them out.

And Native Americans, that's a whole other thing, but we certainly owe them something also. Casino Gamblings probably a good start though.



Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#5 Posted on
hmm...I wonder what the response of an inner-city black student struggling in a failing school district would be? I don't know many students at my 99% white, rich, suburban high school that had any sort of trouble getting into a college they deserved.



"All we are is meat."

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Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#6 Posted on
I think it is a mistake to go down the road of "OWING" one race or another something. I mean, who pays who? What if White immigrant A, whos ancestors had nothing to do with slavery or oppression, comes to this country? Are you saying his grandchildren should have to pay the descendants of slaves, or grant them privleges? What about the African immigrant, whose ancestors enjoyed a slave free-existence? Are THEY owed reparations? Special Privledges?
I can say for certain that 75% of my American ancestors were NOT slave holders. (the other 25% I am not certain about). So am I only 25% liable?
It is a much better solution to fix the problem. I think that your typical slave would feel much better that his great, great grandaughter would live a free life, and not be oppressed than to be pissed off she is not getting treated "special" because he is a slave. The "black reparations" crowd is a classic example of money-hungry "victimology addicts" who don't care about equality, and simply want to be owed something.
Now the Native Americans... damn, that is a tough problem. My gut opinion? Abolishing the Reservation system is the best thing that we can do for them.
Why the hell would you do that? You ask. Well, for starters, that land is shitty. I do not know how many of you have actually BEEN on a reservation, but I have never seen one that is a really good place to live. I am not saying that the NAs would have to LEAVE the land, per se, I just want to abolish the reservation "borders."
When the reservations were established, the US thought of the Natives as nothing more than savage animals. We established the reservations as a way of seeming noble and giving. Natives are now, for the most part, integrated into our society. They ARE Americans. Keeping them separate is the same as treating them like animals. They deserve full representation in our government, and the full benefits living in the American Society bring to their people and economies. Reservation Casinos would become a mute point if their county-style governments were granted full access to our current government network (local-county-state-fedral web), instead of being treated as a separate entitiy. This would result in a boosting of their own economies, as well as granting more access to our federal funds for their own problems.
One of the reasons the reservations are still alive is the idea that it helps to keep their customs alive. Well, for one, the customs, in this day and age, would survive with or without the reservations. The true POINT behind the customs have, for the most part, passed with time (war rituals, and the like) but without the reservations, they would still be remembered in books, civil-war type reenactments, and in the homes and hearts who are proud of their ancestor's history. Hell, I am proud of my Scottish descent, and my posessions and knowledge reflect that. People will still celebrate their roots, whether or not they have an official square of land to do it in.
And finally- integrating them is good for the US. First off... it removes the conquerors/conquered separation and makes us two warring peoples who are now united in peace. It gives the United States a cultural history that, unlike every other nation in the world, it is lacking. The NAs are no longer the oppressed conquered, but valued citizens. Hell, take their service in the wars we have fought since WWII and see that the will is there for them to accept our country as their own. I think it already is.
Look- there is no way that anyone could make things the way they were. If all non-Native American peoples suddenly just up and left the continent, do you really think that life would return to the way it was before we got here? No way! Nor, I think, would the NAs want it to. What was is hopelessly broken... perhaps it is time to make something new instead of worrying about how one set of descendants should go about paying back another set of descendants.
The same is true for all races and sexes. Affirmitive Action does nothing more than further race separation and promoting advantages based on race (racism?). We should be worried about focusing our efforts into building a place where all people of different races, cultures, sexs, whatever can cohabitate in respect and equality, than worrying about who owes who what for ancient wrongs....






3 out of 5 Statisticians agree- Statistics are all bull$hit!
"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#7 Posted on
I think it is a mistake to go down the road of "OWING" one race or another something. I mean, who pays who? What if White immigrant A, whos ancestors had nothing to do with slavery or oppression, comes to this country? Are you saying his grandchildren should have to pay the descendants of slaves, or grant them privleges? What about the African immigrant, whose ancestors enjoyed a slave free-existence? Are THEY owed reparations? Special Privledges?

These are good questions I don't know the answers too. The details are tricky. But I think having the conversation is something valuable we as a society should do, and that's really all the "reperations" folks are asking for. The media would have you think it's just folks looking for a check. That's not true. The main issue is that they want this question talked about and debated, instead of being swept under the rug.

We aren't talking about a few folks who were enslaved for a few years. We're talking about millions of people and hundreds of years. I understand it's a long time ago, but the scope of it demands (I think) that we examine how it affected society today, who it affected how, and what we can do to correct it.

American society benefited from an enourmous amount of forced, free labor. It's that labor that made many people rich, and their descendents rich (at least compared to the descendents of those who did the work). And it's that labor that made this country such a great place for your and my anscestors to some to. Even if they hd no part in it, they, and us as a result, certainly benefited from it. And that's something that needs to be looked at.

Nobody wants to be told that they're responsible, or benefited from, such evil. And nobody wants to be told they didn't work for what they got, or that they don't deserved what they have. But this is a society in which the riches of the parents are passed on to the children, in many different ways. If you want to have a 100% inheritance tax (and a lot of other reforms), then I might say "it was a long time ago, it's not like these people NOW have been enslaved, everyone is equal now, lets just start over."

Now, I'm not saying the children (or grandchildren) of parents who worked hard to get what they have shouldn't benefit. In many ways, that's the American story. But in that case, you have to acknowledge that there were people that worked even harder (involuntarily to boot), and never got the chance to pass this on to their children. Not as a matter of luck, or an isolated incident, or anything else that might come about within the normal course of the immigrant experience. It was as a matter of public policy of the country you and I are citizens of. And that this should be rectified. How? That's a good question. Let's discuss it.

I feel enourmously proud to be an American because of all the people and society of America has accomplished, even if I or my family PERSONALLY never did. Here's an example: I'll talk all sorts of shit to the French about how they punked out of World War II and we had to come rescue their stupid froggy asses. Now did I PERSONALLY storm the beach at Omaha so the Eiffle tower wouldn't have a swastika hanging from it? Of course not. But I proudly claim that as my legacy as an American, and reserve the right to be proud of it, and talk shit to the French about it.

On the same page though, I also feel enourmously ashamed of what the people and society of America really screwed up, even if I or my family PERSONALLY never had anything to do with it. And the same way I rightly claim the benefits of being an American that I or my family PERSONALLY may have never fought for or contributed to, I also claim the responsibilities and duties of being an American that I and my family PERSONALLY were not responsible for. And I believe rectifying what we did to the Blacks and Native Americans of our country is part of that.

You have to take the good with the bad. I don't understand how people can claim all the positive history about America as their own, while disavowing the negative history as something that's not relevant now.


(edited by MoeGates on 10.12.02 1709)

Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#8 Posted on
It begs the question though... why wasn't the blood that was shed to free slaves in America and start the ball rolling towards true equality enough? BROTHER KILLED BROTHER (to borrow a somewhat overused poetic description) in the bloodiest war we have fought to accomplish this. That has got to count for one hell of a lot.
Of course these issues should be addressed, but the Al Sharptons and Jessie Jacksons of the world only want the issue addressed THEIR way, or you are a racist. Plain and simple. I think people would be a lot more receptive to their ideas if they were more about dialoge and less about demands....



(edited by Pool-Boy on 10.12.02 1410)


3 out of 5 Statisticians agree- Statistics are all bull$hit!
"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
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#9 Posted on
What do Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson demand? Their position on reparations has always been that they support House Resolution 40, which reads

"To acknowledge the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery in the United States and the 13 American colonies between 1619 and 1865 and to establish a commission to examine the institution of slavery, subsequent de jure and de facto racial and economic discrimination against African Americans, and the impact of these forces on living African Americans, to make recommendations to the Congress on appropriate remedies, and for other purposes."

To read the whole thing Click Here

That doesn't sound like they're demanding anything. It sounds like they want to acknowledge the history, and discuss what can be done to rectify it.

It's typical of the conservative corporate media to make it look like they're "demanding" something (read: a check). Instead of taking the media's word for it, go read Al's book "Al on America," for his take. I'm sure you'll disagree with 95% of what he has to say, but keep an open mind and you might be surprised at the other 5%.


(edited by MoeGates on 10.12.02 1728)


Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    What do Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson demand? Their position on reparations has always been that they support House Resolution 40, which reads

    "To acknowledge the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery in the United States and the 13 American colonies between 1619 and 1865 and to establish a commission to examine the institution of slavery, subsequent de jure and de facto racial and economic discrimination against African Americans, and the impact of these forces on living African Americans, to make recommendations to the Congress on appropriate remedies, and for other purposes."

    To read the whole thing Click Here

    That doesn't sound like they're demanding anything. It sounds like they want to acknowledge the history, and discuss what can be done to rectify it.

    It's typical of the conservative corporate media to make it look like they're "demanding" something (read: a check). Instead of taking the media's word for it, go read Al's book "Al on America," for his take. I'm sure you'll disagree with 95% of what he has to say, but keep an open mind and you might be surprised at the other 5%.


    (edited by MoeGates on 10.12.02 1728)



You're gonna defend SHARPTON now, Moe?

Do we need a freakin' commission to investigate slavery? Any rational being knows that it was one of the most horrible institutions in the history of man. And we can probably agree that the plight of many black people today stems at least in part from slavery and the legacy of slavery, racism. I ask, however: What do you want to do about it? Because the money that pays for any kind of reparation, be it in the form of a check, or some other sort of governmental benefit, is going to come from the vast, vast majority of people who had absolutely nothing to do with slavery. We've ended institutional racism, and I think that's all we (as a society) can do.



Damn your eyes!
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#11 Posted on
You're gonna defend SHARPTON now, Moe?

Well, I wouldn't vote for the guy, but as I've said before, the conservative corporate media gives him a much worse rap then he deserves. At least read what the guy has to say in his own words before you get all incredulous.

I ask, however: What do you want to do about it?

I want our government to start a discussion about it, instead of it being an absolute non-starter issue. In the end what do I want done about it? I honestly don't know. Maybe nothing. It's a very complicated issue. But it should be talked about on an official level, and that's all Al, and Jesse, and myself are asking for.







Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    I want our government to start a discussion about it, instead of it being an absolute non-starter issue. In the end what do I want done about it? I honestly don't know. Maybe nothing. It's a very complicated issue. But it should be talked about on an official level, and that's all Al, and Jesse, and myself are asking for.


Let's have this discussion here.

Panelist # 1: We're here to talk about slavery.
Panelist # 2: Slavery happened.
Panelist # 3: Slavery wasn't a proud moment in our history.
Panelist # 4: We stopped it.
Panelist # 5: It ended 137 years ago.
Panelist # 6: Let's get a pizza.

There is nothing to talk about. Slavery happened. Was it morally bad? Yes. Was it necessary for the economy to function at the time? Yes. Was it something to be proud of? Hell no.

Should wealth be transferred from white people to black people based on race? No. That's called RACISM and any self-professing liberal, conservative, or rational person should be able to see it for what it is.

(edited by Grimis on 10.12.02 1902)


LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
The same conservative corporate media that is (justifiably) all over Lott, but which doesn't care to note that Robert Byrd, D-WV, was a Klan member? Also, two words: Tawana Brawley. This man maliciously lied to the American people and wasted the time and money of our court system with a trumped up charge.

And I don't think slavery is a complicated issue. The horrors of slavery are more or less cut-and-dried. Short of going back in time and ending slavery before it started, all we can do now is make sure the playing field is in fact level, and permit black people the chance to catch up, which they inevitably will.



Damn your eyes!
antizeus
Linguica








Since: 3.1.02

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#14 Posted on
Arguing over whether the media is (are?) conservative or liberal is a distraction. The media is/are corporate. There are a handful of large media conglomerates who control most of the mainstream sources of information. They present information in such a way as to enhance shareholder value. This means that important issues, such as increasing corporate influence in the political process, get downplayed, while left/right puppet shows get pushed to the moon.

In any case, if we must discuss things in liberal/conservative terms (hack, spit), then the reporters tend to be "liberal" and the management tends to be "conservative". Except on Fox News I guess.

Of course this post is based mostly on my anti-corporate bias.



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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 9 days
Last activity: 19 hours
#15 Posted on
Should wealth be transferred from white people to black people based on race? No. That's called RACISM and any self-professing liberal, conservative, or rational person should be able to see it for what it is.

Sure, I agree that's wrong. "Transfering wealth from white people to black people based on race" is not what reparations are about, any more than "transfering wealth from white people to Japanese people" is what reperations for the Japanese internment camps are about. Should we have "gone to get a pizza" there also? How about for Holocaust victims? Just because reperations for slavery is a larger and (much) more complicated issue than the other two, doesn't mean it shouldn't be approached as well.

The same conservative corporate media that is (justifiably) all over Lott, but which doesn't care to note that Robert Byrd, D-WV, was a Klan member? Also, two words: Tawana Brawley. This man maliciously lied to the American people and wasted the time and money of our court system with a trumped up charge.


Well, you'll get no arguement from me on the Robert Byrd thing. Democrats (Byrd is almost as far from being a "liberal" as Lott) I think have a tendancy to forgive him stuff they shouldn't because he's such an icon, similar to the way Republicans do woth Strom Thurmond, and I think it's just as bad.

I already posted a while ago about Tawana Brawley here, so I won't repeat myself, but go read his take on it. While it wasn't his finest moment, he does have an explanation, a nd while you may not agree with it, it makes sence.









Liberals - Damn sexy chicks that aren't ashamed to put out in ways you didn't even know existed.
---real life bedroom experiences
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2868 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91
I don't think affirmative action is about slavery at all. Slavery ended a looong time ago. Prejudice towards blacks didn't. It exists to this day in America, albeit in small ways. Segregation was around until the sixties. Black people weren't allowed to drink out of the same fountains as whites, for crying out loud. What the fuck is that all about? Blacks couldn't achieve any social position even close to whites, in terms of pay or respect. Things have changed a lot over the past half-century, for sure. In WWII the highest-ranking black man in the Army was a captain, and now Colin Powell runs all types of shit, and has for 15 years. This is good. But the military is exceptional in this regard, as it puts merit first in a way no other organization does. I think the main issue is education, which affirmative action attempts to redress in its twistede way. Black schools fucking suck. Fact. Don't even try to argue that one. So because blacks recieve an education that is sub-par, affirmative action lowers college standards. Huh? How the hell does that help? That's like putting a band-aid on a fucking gutshot. How about... gee, I dunno, IMPROVING INNER-CITY SCHOOLS so black people get the same quality of education that white folks do? I mean, please, who the fuck is in charge of this shit? Is that so damn hard to figure? I tell you what, guys, if I got bumped off of a college enrollment list for some motherfucker who scored worse than me, I would be apeshit. And, as for that guy, he probably isn't going to do so well because he simply hasn't had the proper education. This solves nothing. It's completely asinine. It makes me very irritated.



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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
i thought Jesse Jackson, et al, wanted $$$ from slavery...just like japanese americans got $$$ for being effectly jailed for looking japanese.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: West Palm Beach, FL

Since last post: 89 days
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#18 Posted on

    Sure, I agree that's wrong. "Transfering wealth from white people to black people based on race" is not what reparations are about, any more than "transfering wealth from white people to Japanese people" is what reperations for the Japanese internment camps are about. Should we have "gone to get a pizza" there also?


The one difference there, is that the Japanese that received reparations were the direct vitim of the action. Not a victim, perceived or real, 150 years after the fact.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1276 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Jobberman
    The one difference there, is that the Japanese that received reparations were the direct vitim of the action. Not a victim, perceived or real, 150 years after the fact.

This is the exact reason that something to the effect of 68% of the population opposes any sort of reperations. The Japanese reperations case is in fact different because survivors or their immediate progenywere the ones receiving the benefit. Under current reparations plans, the money would be transferred from the government(i.e. the taxpayer, regardless if their family owned slaves or was even here in 1865) to blacks regardless of whether their family were slaves or not, regardless whether or not they weere here in 1865.



LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2033 days
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#20 Posted on
The biggest problems I see with cash reparations are the following.
1. Who pays? Just the American govt? Or does the African countries that sold the slaves have to pay? The Portuguesse or Dutch ships that transported them?
2. Who receives the money? Do you have to prove that you are a certain 64th or 128th slave descendant? Or just anyone who is African American now?
3. How much money? This is a big question involved with the top two. These are rought numbers but here goes. 30 million AA's times even a fairly small settlement 10K equals 300 billion dollars! That would damn near bankrupt the country.
4. Even if they got all that money would it make up for it? Is 10K, 100K, or even a million dollars enough to make up for 250 years of slavery? Of 100 years of segragation? Of 400 years of racism? Sorry about all that here is your check? That would piss me off more. Granted I am white but come on.



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
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It's Moore crying about a conspiracy that doesn't exist, which isn't exactly new ground for him. It says in the article that Disney stated a year ago they wouldn't carry the movie and Miramax made the deal anyway hoping they'd forget or something.
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