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The W - Hockey - NHL planning for 2010-11 season w/ Winnipeg team!?
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The Thrill
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Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
Welcome home, men of the 2nd Bn, 127th Infantry, 32d "Red Arrow" Brigade, WI Army National Guard! Job well done in Iraq!

(Did I just start a hockey thread? Whoa!)

Apparently the NHL is getting ready for just that possibility. (CBC Sports)

Tonight, the Glendale, AZ city council has to decide whether to give the NHL what it wants (a guarantee to cover the losses the league'll incur running the Phoenix Coyotes this season), or face losing the franchise.

That CBC Sports article says Glendale's looking a $14 million budget shortfall square in the face...yikes. On the other hand, if they let the NHL sell the Coyotes to the guys who'll move 'em back to Winnipeg, then there's no tenant for the Jobing.com Arena, which the city built specifically for the Coyotes.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but...could be one interesting city council meeting. (Probably because they're not the make-you-bash-your-h​​ead-against-the-wall GB city council.)

(edited by The Thrill on 11.5.10 2046)





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Since: 24.6.07
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.04
The Coyotes are not moving. Winnipeg is not getting another team any time soon. I do hope this becomes a yearly tradition though.



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The Thrill
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Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.25
Welcome home, men of the 2nd Bn, 127th Infantry, 32d "Red Arrow" Brigade, WI Army National Guard! Job well done in Iraq!

And it would appear that the Glendale city council has opened up the coffers and proven you right.

(EDIT: WTF!? Posted this w/ my BlackBerry last night, 5 minutes from Lambeau Field...and I'm allegedly in CANADA!? Fits the thread's spirit, but really? Really?) :-)

(edited by The Thrill on 12.5.10 1436)






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Since: 24.6.07
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.04
Wow there are going to be some pissed off Glendale residents now though. I don't think the team will move any time soon but the NHL can't keep cutting its losses with them apparently, I don't know what the solution is.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.92
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    The Coyotes are not moving. Winnipeg is not getting another team any time soon. I do hope this becomes a yearly tradition though.


Bettman and the NHL leadership need to pull their heads out of their behinds.

There are teams, like Phoenix losing boatloads of money year after year. That can't be healthy for your league.

On the other hand...

There are two multi-million/billion aires that want into the league. David Thomson (Winnipeg) and Jim Balsillie (Hamilton/Southern Ontario) have money and want to own hockey teams.

For crying out loud, let some new blood into the club Bettman. It can't hurt.





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Since: 24.6.07
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.04
I think the problem with Winnipeg is an arena issue and the problem with Hamilton is territorial rights with surrounding NHL markets, right?

Phoenix is a good NHL market, Glendale isn't.



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hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    I think the problem with Winnipeg is an arena issue and the problem with Hamilton is territorial rights with surrounding NHL markets, right?
That's the impression I got; Toronto doesn't want the competition.

That being said, I think Bettman also doesn't want to admit defeat on the American front. Winnipeg instead of Hamilton just takes out one of his excuses, rather than switching it from a no-go to open arms.



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Since: 24.6.07
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.04
The American front has not been defeated even if Phoenix has been a financial disaster (which (I still believe firmly lies on the fact the arena is 30 miles from Phoenix.. getting fans to travel 8 times a year for football is easier than 41 games for hockey, usually on weeknights.) Florida and Nashville haven't done too great either, but otherwise Quebec to Colorado worked out, Nashville is becoming a little successful now, Atlanta is a terrible idea but the Flames were popular back in the day so there's hope, and Tampa was such a successful franchise initially and they have a Cup. Carolina is pretty steady now and has a Cup also. Anaheim and LA are two of the more popular teams in the NHL and San Jose apparently has the most rabid fanbase in America.. and California has no ice. So I refuse to believe American expansion has been a failure. It just hasn't been mega successful initially, but sometimes it takes time to establish a market.

Just because teams will instantly become mega popular in Canada doesn't mean the league should move teams there, though. It's a short term fix, but you never know what long term damage it could do. What if the dollar collapses like it did in 1995 again? Then you have to move these teams again later on.

Also not only do I think Toronto would veto a Hamilton move, I heard Buffalo would too.

(edited by Psycho Penguin on 12.5.10 1738)


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Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    The American front has not been defeated even if Phoenix has been a financial disaster (which (I still believe firmly lies on the fact the arena is 30 miles from Phoenix.. getting fans to travel 8 times a year for football is easier than 41 games for hockey, usually on weeknights.) Florida and Nashville haven't done too great either, but otherwise Quebec to Colorado worked out, Nashville is becoming a little successful now, Atlanta is a terrible idea but the Flames were popular back in the day so there's hope, and Tampa was such a successful franchise initially and they have a Cup. Carolina is pretty steady now and has a Cup also. Anaheim and LA are two of the more popular teams in the NHL and San Jose apparently has the most rabid fanbase in America.. and California has no ice. So I refuse to believe American expansion has been a failure. It just hasn't been mega successful initially, but sometimes it takes time to establish a market.

    Just because teams will instantly become mega popular in Canada doesn't mean the league should move teams there, though. It's a short term fix, but you never know what long term damage it could do. What if the dollar collapses like it did in 1995 again? Then you have to move these teams again later on.
All valid points. My thinking was more Bettman wouldn't want to admit *any* defeat. But as you say, Phoenix is a battle, not a war.
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    Also not only do I think Toronto would veto a Hamilton move, I heard Buffalo would too.
Call me a crazy Western Canadian conspiracy theorist, but I think it's more likely that Buffalo has a vote, while Toronto has a veto, if you know what I mean.



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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
    Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
    (I still believe firmly lies on the fact the arena is 30 miles from Phoenix.. getting fans to travel 8 times a year for football is easier than 41 games for hockey, usually on weeknights.)


I agree with you too, but even after the Nats arrived here, people from Northern Virginia still drive 60 miles or so to Baltimore to see the O's (or to me more accurate, the Yankees, Sox, and anyone the O's are facing in the AL).

I don't know if they go 81 times a year, but people still do make it up there. If people in Phoenix really want their team to stay, they better start buying tickets and making that drive.



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Loosie
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Kitchener, Ontario

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.18
With Balsillie it's not so much moving a team to KW or Hamilton. It's that Bettman doesn't want him as an owner. Balsillie is actually passionate about his hockey, and heaven forbid there be a voice that doesn't agree with Bettman on the BoD.

As far as Winnipeg is concerned they do have the arena. The MTS Centre can hold an NHL team.

I still don't buy the Toronto veto power to block a team moving into SW Ontario. Mainly because a new team in the area would have no noticable impact on Toronto. The waiting list for season tickets is years long. Current season ticket 'rights' (if you will) are litearly willed down generations. Even after 5 years (counting the lockout) the Leafs still sell out year after year. The team's fan base (myself included) can be jaded, but we always come back. Yes we bitch, yes we claim each new player acquired is THE GREATEST EVAR~! But we always suppor our team. This is no to say others don't, but when you look at Atlanta, Florida, Tampa, Carolina, Nashville, Phoenix, and even Washington before Ovechkin arrived. When the teams were crap the fans stayed away. You will never see that in Toronto. Not to mention all the buisnesses that own most of the front row seats. (Hence why the building usually looks empty at the beginning of each period.)

Ok of my soapbox.

I would love to see a move to Winnipeg, but I also realize the team is in Phoenix, and as much as it pains me to say this. I think they need to explore all avenues to keep the team in Phoenix as long as it is profitable. That being said in the 15 years it has been in Phoenix, I don;t believe it has made many any single year. That should tell you something.

As far as the dollar is concerned. I think we've reached an era where parity bewteen the Canadian and American dollars will be the norm. So I don't think that would be an issue.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.53
It's not Balsillie's passion that's keeping him out of the league, it's the fact that he's a liar who negotiated in bad faith and tried to steal two teams.
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
I can buy the NHL not wanting Balsille as an owner since he's basically just tried to hijack a franchise without going through the proper channels. But there is really no logical reason for Winnipeg to not have a team. They have the arena, they have the ownership in Thomson, the fans are certainly crazy-passionate....what's the holdup, aside from Bettman's pig-headed rejection of Canada as a market for new teams. Seriously, how does Bettman still have a job? The NHL has taken several steps back since he became commissioner 16 years ago.
Peter The Hegemon
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Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.04
    Originally posted by Loosie


    I still don't buy the Toronto veto power to block a team moving into SW Ontario. Mainly because a new team in the area would have no noticable impact on Toronto. The waiting list for season tickets is years long. Current season ticket 'rights' (if you will) are litearly willed down generations. Even after 5 years (counting the lockout) the Leafs still sell out year after year. The team's fan base (myself included) can be jaded, but we always come back. Yes we bitch, yes we claim each new player acquired is THE GREATEST EVAR~! But we always suppor our team.


Well, it's not just the live attendance. I'm assuming that the Leafs are on the cable systems in Hamilton, have a radio affiliate there, sell merchandise there, and so on. There are a lot of ways they make money off their fan base, and putting another team in Ontario can take some of those away, just as I'm sure they lost some revenue when Ottawa came in. Whether they are entitled to that revenue is another question, but I can see why they'd want to keep another team out.
Psycho Penguin
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Since: 24.6.07
From: Greenacres FL

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.04
I don't really see the benefit of moving Phoenix back to Winnipeg. It's not fair to say Bettman is not admitting a mistake when the point is to develop a new hockey market, which takes time. I still say the biggest issue is the arena being in Glendale, but it's too late to correct that wrong so just got to hope the team keeps winning and fans start making the commute more.

Comparing the Coyotes situation to the Nationals isn't correct either. Yes, baseball has twice as many home games. It's also a much more popular sport in an area with more initial fans of the sport. Washington was rumored to be getting a baseball team for ages and Phoenix just came out of nowhere with getting a hockey team.

Many Phoenix area fans that are hockey fans are fans of other teams, naturally, so developing a fanbase takes time. Might even take 20 years to get a true fanbase since you need to wait for kids to grow up Coyotes fans and then pass it to their kids, but that's true in a lot of cities.. expanding to new hockey markets is not a bad long term idea.

About the Winnipeg arena deal, from source of godly information Wikipedia:
Many questions have arisen about the MTS Centre's potential suitability to host an NHL team. At its current hockey capacity of 15,015, it would be by far the smallest home arena in the NHL, well below the current smallest--the New York Islanders' Nassau Coliseum--which seats 16,234.

And the Islanders are in danger of moving too, although I am not sure if that's because of the arena or not. Why not move them to Winnipeg if anything? New York area does not need 3 teams.



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Mr Heel II
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Since: 25.2.02

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.20
The threat of the Islanders leaving is absolutely due to their arena situation and a long-running city-developer feud to solve said situation.

As for Winnipeg, the argument that their current arena (which was built AFTER the Jets left and certainly should have been better designed if they were ever planning to woo a team again) is too small is certainly valid. I guess parking is also a situation there. But another concern I've heard is many believe it's not a big enough TV market anymore.

The NHL has changed a lot since Winnipeg last had a team. I don't know if I can see that city supporting a franchise again. But I'd love to see them get it. Still have a Jets jersey from their last season.

I was in the old Winnipeg Arena once (for Robert Plant). That was certainly a one-of-a-kind place. May have been the ultimate nosebleed arena.

(edited by Mr Heel II on 13.5.10 1340)
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
People more familiar with the area can correct me, but I've driven (or at least sat in a car while someone else drove) from Phoenix to Glendale and it's not that long of a drive. Like, maybe 15 minutes from downtown normally, worse during a game. And probably a shorter drive than most of the people who are going to Blackhawks games.



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Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.72
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    People more familiar with the area can correct me, but I've driven (or at least sat in a car while someone else drove) from Phoenix to Glendale and it's not that long of a drive. Like, maybe 15 minutes from downtown normally, worse during a game. And probably a shorter drive than most of the people who are going to Blackhawks games.


It's right next to the stadium where Wrestlemania was and the cab ride from Peoria, past downtown Phoenix was something like fifteen minutes. Not a long ride at all imo. Traffic on the parking lots wasn't great on the way back but that's the case at most arenas afaik.

(edited by dMp on 13.5.10 2331)


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