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The W - Football - Nevada, Fresno State move to MWC, BYU considers going Independent
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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5474774

I don't see why BYU would want to go the Notre Dame route and go independent in football, but join the WAC in every other sport. At least ND has a clause where they can get into a BCS game based on their BCS rank, or the rank of a lesser school if they have at least 9 wins.

BYU doesn't have that same clause. The only thing I can think of is that they have their own network and they don't want to have to get a share from a conference network when they can just play their home games on their own channel.



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Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
Do BYU and Notre Dame ever play each other? Doesn't this seem like a natural rivalry, the Harvard and Yale of religious schools?



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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.26
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
    Do BYU and Notre Dame ever play each other? Doesn't this seem like a natural rivalry, the Harvard and Yale of religious schools?


Notre Dame and Boston College play each other quite often. They are the only two Catholic schools playing Division I football.

Notre Dame and BYU have played six times - each year from 1992-94 and 2003-05. Notre Dame went 4-2 in those games.

It sounds like now we may end up with a 12-team MWC with BYU staying, Boise State, Fresno State, and Nevada being added and now Houston being added. That would be kind of cool.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

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lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
BYU has a religion that has a lot of followers outside Utah, crazy I know, so they travel well maybe. Its a good chance for them to spread their wings. I would assume a game against ND would be natural, but ND has Texas and Miami already booked in the near future and if they go Big Ten when the shit its the fan again in the spring and it will. ND will probably keep those two schools plus USC and BC as their outside conference games. I am not sure if BYU is right about their national standing, but if they want to spin, the wheel, I say go ahead raggedy man.
StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
The talking heads on ESPN seem to think that to followers of the Mormon faith, BYU is a national school with a national football team and a national fanbase. No one is saying they'd get the same favored treatment from the BCS that Notre Dame gets, but they do have good reason to believe they'd do well in markets outside of their immediate vicinity. Makes sense to me anyway.

- StingArmy
redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.91
If they play a national schedule, they won't be in a bad position. BYU does have name recognition nationally and could be more of a power as an independent than on the fringe in the WAC or MWC. Now, if in a few years they are playing WAC and Conference USA schools, they will be completely off the radar.
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.55
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    The talking heads on ESPN seem to think that to followers of the Mormon faith, BYU is a national school with a national football team and a national fanbase. No one is saying they'd get the same favored treatment from the BCS that Notre Dame gets, but they do have good reason to believe they'd do well in markets outside of their immediate vicinity. Makes sense to me anyway.

    - StingArmy


Don't underestimate the power of being LDS or Catholic affiliated. It's pretty impressive. ND is really a small student base school (around 10,000) and can field BCS teams in major sports. I imagine BYU can do the same. And with a rabid alumni base they have accesss to large piles of cash.

Finally, free of being locked into a conference with mostly teams that dont help your ranking, may be a smart move. Or if they are as good as they hope to be, no powerhouse will schedule them.



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Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
I think it's in part just a bluff by them, all about money. I also think it's retarded of them to consider going independant, and any comparison to Notre Dame is pointless. They aren't ND, they aren't going to be ND, they don't and won't have that kind of support.

Just a pretty dumb move to even consider in my view.
TheOldMan
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Since: 13.2.03
From: Chicago

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.43
As I understand the cable business (and I'd guess that's what's behind any talk of BYU going independent), the thinking is that because there's a niche audience of Mormons all over the country, going indy could allow the school to clean up because people will demand the BYU Network get carried coast-to-coast.

They ought to notice that Notre Dame doesn't even have a private sports cable channel - their deal is split between the Big East, and then NBC for home football and the NCAA deal for away games. The Big 10 Network is doing well, but there's a big difference between what they clear from Midwestern states, and what they get as part of the "sports tier" in SEC country and out West.

It's something like $1 per household per month in "Big 10 Territory", 10ยข per household outside of the geographic area. (This is why you hear a lot of talk about Rutgers to the Big 10.) Texas stayed with the Big 12 because they get to run their own cable network, but there's a lot more people in Texas than in Utah. I just don't see where there are enough BYU alumni around to get an out-of-state cable system to add the channel.

And then finances aside, good luck scheduling as an independent.



lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
The thing with Notre Dame is they have won national champions in the past, have long time foes like Michigan, USC and Navy while also having a huge following who travels. BYU is a known school, but doesn't have the tradition, rivalries and probably the following to pull this off. ND gets good ratings, because they play other popular teams as well. Who is BYU going to schedule when most of the big time schools are ducking Boise St and TCU?

When Notre Dame made the deal with NBC, they were coming off their last golden era under Lou and gave NBC one of the biggest college sports ratings two weeks in a row with the FSU and BC games in 1993 as well as a ton of other games. I am not sure BYU can do that, yet there is almost a 1,000 channels out there nowadays, so they can end up on one of them, but I don't think its going to be an NBC or have their own network like the Big Ten does. Like I said before they can spin the wheel, just don't be shocked when it comes up "Lose three seasons worth of note and go back to a conference."
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
    Originally posted by lotjx
    The thing with Notre Dame is they have won national champions in the past,


Been awarded or voted as champion, you mean.

My system of awarding a FBS championship is no more or less valid than the Dunkle System or the dozens of other selectors like The Congrove Computer Rankings, The AP Poll, The Colley Matrix, or the BCS.

No one can actually agree how many "National Championships" that major schools have "won." Notre Dame claims it has "won" 11 championships, but the College Football Data Warehouse claims it has 13 championships. If you go by the AP and Coaches' poll, Notre Dame only has 8 championships. Where did these other 3 championships come from?



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-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
    Originally posted by Zeruel
      Originally posted by lotjx
      The thing with Notre Dame is they have won national champions in the past,


    Been awarded or voted as champion, you mean.

    My system of awarding a FBS championship is no more or less valid than the Dunkle System or the dozens of other selectors like The Congrove Computer Rankings, The AP Poll, The Colley Matrix, or the BCS.

    No one can actually agree how many "National Championships" that major schools have "won." Notre Dame claims it has "won" 11 championships, but the College Football Data Warehouse claims it has 13 championships. If you go by the AP and Coaches' poll, Notre Dame only has 8 championships. Where did these other 3 championships come from?


Alabama also has the same problem. It might have something to do with who the AP voted for during that time. I think its only been recently that we have done co-national champions. The Michigan State/Notre Dame tied game comes to mind that it could of those 3. Why you are bringing this up, I have no idea, but it doesn't change the fact Notre Dame has won championships more then BYU. It also doesn't change the fact due to Notre Dame's past and rather large audience they have the NBC deal. Granted there have been rough patches, but even last year ND haters can say they had the most exciting games on TV regardless of the wins. I am sure Charlie Weiss cares about the wins, but its really about the ratings as far as NBC is concerned.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
    Originally posted by lotjx
      Originally posted by Zeruel
        Originally posted by lotjx
        The thing with Notre Dame is they have won national champions in the past,


      Been awarded or voted as champion, you mean.

      My system of awarding a FBS championship is no more or less valid than the Dunkle System or the dozens of other selectors like The Congrove Computer Rankings, The AP Poll, The Colley Matrix, or the BCS.

      No one can actually agree how many "National Championships" that major schools have "won." Notre Dame claims it has "won" 11 championships, but the College Football Data Warehouse claims it has 13 championships. If you go by the AP and Coaches' poll, Notre Dame only has 8 championships. Where did these other 3 championships come from?


    Why you are bringing this up, I have no idea, but it doesn't change the fact Notre Dame has won championships more then BYU.


No, they haven't. They have both won ZERO national championships in NCAA DIV I-A/FBS Football. That's why I've brought it up. You do realize that the NCAA doesn't award a national championship in the FBS, right? As far as the NCAA is concerned, the Div I champion from last season is Villanova and all Alabama did was play in the BCS cartel's money making end of season exhibition game. Also, if it is a "Bowl Championship Series", why is it a "Series" of one game to decide their "champion"? I never understood that.

The AP assigning a national title is just as valid as me claiming that Indy was last year's NFL champion because I found a bunch of people who voted them the #1 team in the last poll (and many such "championships" were awarded before the bowl games because they were done at the end of the regular season).



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
By the way, since the point was comparing Notre Dame to BYU, I should mention that BYU was chosen as the national champion in 1984 by all of the major voters of the time: the AP, the Football Writers Association of America, the National Football Foundation, United Press International, and the USA Today/CNN poll. There were a smattering of organizations who chose other teams that year, of course.
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
The won vs. selected distinction has merit in some contexts, but not this one. lotjx's point is that Notre Dame has a tradition of winning and being in the hunt for national championships. That's a huge part of why they're able to have a special TV contract with a major television network, get special treatment by the BCS, etc. Whether they won those championships or had the championships awarded to them, they still have a bunch of championships. BYU, not so much.

- StingArmy
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    The won vs. selected distinction has merit in some contexts, but not this one. lotjx's point is that Notre Dame has a tradition of winning and being in the hunt for national championships. That's a huge part of why they're able to have a special TV contract with a major television network, get special treatment by the BCS, etc. Whether they won those championships or had the championships awarded to them, they still have a bunch of championships. BYU, not so much.

    - StingArmy


BYU has a better tradition of winning. ND has been on a losing trend the last few decades where BYU has been improving.


Seasons ND (W-L-T) W% BYU (W-L-T) W%
Last 5 35-27-0 0.565 49-15-0 0.766
Last 10 70-52-0 0.574 81-44-0 0.648
Last 15 108-74-0 0.593 125-63-0 0.665
Last 20 154-87-2 0.638 167-83-2 0.667
Last 25 196-104-2 0.652 214-102-2 0.676
Last 30 230-126-4 0.644 269-110-2 0.709


If we look at the individual 5-year chunks:

Seasons ND (W-L-T) W% BYU (W-L-T) W%
2005-2009 35-27-0 0.565 49-15-0 0.766
2000-2004 35-25-0 0.583 32-29-0 0.525
1995-1999 38-22-0 0.633 44-19-0 0.698
1990-1994 46-13-2 0.770 42-20-2 0.672
1985-1989 42-17-0 0.712 47-19-0 0.712
1980-1984 34-22-2 0.603 55-8-0 0.873


In those 30 Seasons:
Undefeated: ND - 1 (1988, 12-0-0), BYU - 1 (1984, 13-0-0)
1 non-win: ND - 2 (1989 12-1, 1993 11-1), BYU - 3 (1980 12-1, 1983 11-1, 1996 14-1*)
2 non-wins: ND - 1 (1992 10-1-1), BYU - 5 (1981 11-2, 2001 12-2, 2006 11-2, 2007 11-2, 2009 11-2)
10+ wins: ND - 7, BYU - 14
0.500 or better: ND - 23 (7 losing seasons - 1981, 1985-86, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2007), BYU - 27 (3 losing seasons - 2002-2004)

*I double checked this. They played 12 games (11-1), and won the Pigskin classic vs TAMU (41-37), WAC Championship game vs Wyoming (28-25), and the Cotton Bowl vs Kansas State (19-15) to make them 14-1.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not in either team's camp. I dislike both teams equally. In my original post, I couldn't see why they would go independent and be like ND with their own TV deal. Now, after doing the research, I see they are out "Notre Dameing" Notre Dame.

Like TheOldMan said, ND's NBC deal is for home games only. It looks like BYU will have every game on their channel if they go this route.


(edited by Zeruel on 23.8.10 1600)


-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
I am not sure how BYU is going to pull that off since the reason NBC doesn't have the away games is because of the deals with the conferences have with their networks. Good luck, trying to schedule those games. I can only imagine what their schedule is going to look like after the WAC deal is done, I am sure Yale and Harvard will be able for some TV time on Verses. I say ESPN gets them and forces them to get a Big East type of schedule. ESPN has so many deals that it will hardly matter if BYU is independent, but I am sure they will schedule them around for the more important games. I hear ESPN ocho is a nice place.

As for the stats on ND vs. BYU. The reality is Notre Dame had a TV deal and a number championships before BYU ever did regardless who awards them are not. As long as the NCAA recognizes them that is all that matters. I'll take ND's 8 or 11 to BYU's 1 any day of the week. Notre Dame has played Michigan and USC since the 1960s every year, the WAC was and has been a shit conference minus the last few years. I would love for ND to be in the WAC, win it every other year, but that is not going to happen. Notre Dame has Texas, Miami and probably another big school lined-up in the near future. Yet, BYU did beat Oklahoma last year thanks to Bradford's injury, but lost the only real competition they faced in FSU and TCU. When people think college football teams Notre Dame is near top of list, BYU can not say the same.

(edited by lotjx on 23.8.10 1550)
StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
It really pains me to be on this side of the debate because I really thoroughly dislike Notre Dame. But here goes...
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    BYU has a better tradition of winning. ND has been on a losing trend the last few decades where BYU has been improving.

Those stats could be relevant, no doubt, but I would say they could be rendered far relevant if you look at WHO those wins and losses were against for each team. If Notre Dame was having pretty good success against a litany of big name schools with powerful football programs, I would find that more impressive than if BYU was having marginally more success against a bunch of whatshisname Mountain West foes.

More importantly than wins or losses, though, Notre Dame is a brand. People make movies about Notre Dame. It has a mystique (deserved or not). BYU is clearly the far superior team, talent-wise, over the pass several years, but Notre Dame is IMHO clearly the more popular team. BYU could be the best flavor of Jones Soda, but Notre Dame is still Pepsi.

I don't know how far into the future you can ride the wave of previous successes, but at least for now Notre Dame has proven that you can ride it pretty dang far. Maybe this is just my East Coast bias speaking, but I just don't think BYU has close to the same name recognition or brand name power that Notre Dame has.

- StingArmy
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
    Originally posted by lotjx
    The reality is Notre Dame had a TV deal and a number championships before BYU ever did regardless who awards them are not. As long as the NCAA recognizes them that is all that matters.


Because you refuse to read anything that people write, I will repeat it AGAIN.

THE NCAA DOESN'T RECOGNIZE A DIV I-A/BCS "CHAMPION."
THE NCAA DOESN'T RECOGNIZE A DIV I-A/BCS "CHAMPION."
THE NCAA DOESN'T RECOGNIZE A DIV I-A/BCS "CHAMPION."

The NCAA doesn't recognize the 8-11 "championships" Notre Dame has nor the one that BYU claims to have. Villanova has more national championships than Notre Dame in Div I football.

    Originally posted by StingArmy
    It really pains me to be on this side of the debate because I really thoroughly dislike Notre Dame. But here goes...
      Originally posted by Zeruel
      BYU has a better tradition of winning. ND has been on a losing trend the last few decades where BYU has been improving.

    Those stats could be relevant, no doubt, but I would say they could be rendered far relevant if you look at WHO those wins and losses were against for each team. If Notre Dame was having pretty good success against a litany of big name schools with powerful football programs, I would find that more impressive than if BYU was having marginally more success against a bunch of whatshisname Mountain West foes.


Oh, I will be the first to agree with you that the quality of the opponent matters GREATLY. Army could go 12-0 but if it's over Temple, Rice, WKU, La Tech, North Texas, Northern Iowa, Washington, Washington State, Tulane, NM, NM State, and Idaho, I don't think anyone would seriously consider Army a top 10 school. Even being undefeated.

Looking at the last three years (because my ranking only go back that far) the BCS and I have been pretty close in ranking BYU in the same area (+/- 4 spots pre-bowl)

2007: Me - 15, BCS - 17, Computers only - 19
2008: Me - 19, BCS - 16, Computers only - 16
2009: Me - 12, BCS - 14, Computers only - 15

It seems that their MWC sked isn't really holding them back, considering that they played Utah and TCU. With Utah leaving and Boise State coming in, I think their SOS and opponents' SOS will be just fine for the BCS and their computers.

(edited by Zeruel on 23.8.10 1955)


-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

-- July 2009 Ordained Reverend --
JayJayDean
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.26
    Originally posted by lotjx
    a number championships before BYU ever did regardless who awards them are not. As long as the NCAA recognizes them that is all that matters.


Zeruel's point was that the NCAA DOESN'T recognize them, they just don't do anything like a playoff to override the polls and BCS.

In basketball, there are polls just like in football. The difference is that they play out the games and decide the "official" NCAA champion.

The football national champion in the Bowl Subdivision is the *BCS* National Champion, not the *NCAA* National Champions. That's why the BCS champion gets a crystal football and not an NCAA trophy.



Holy fuck shit motherfucker shit. Read comics. Fuck shit shit fuck shit I sold out when I did my job. Fuck fuck fuck shit fuck. Sorry had to do it....

*snip*

Revenge of the Sith = one thumb up from me. Fuck shit. I want to tittie fuck your ass.
-- The Guinness. to Cerebus
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