I think you hit it spot-on, Texas Kelly. The fact of the matter is that the WWF hasn't developed a credible heel since HHH first rose to power because the new heels are booked to fail. Because it seems that HHH and Austin are unwilling to look even remotely weak, they have to get screwed in order to lose. Rock, to his credit, will do the job.
But what this means is that the heel is always seen as below the face. This isn't how it was when HHH got promoted, however. HHH got clean wins over toppish faces, and actually was able to come through with his threats. He would threaten to hurt someone, he'd threaten to drop a sledgehammer on someone's knee, and HE'D ACTUALLY DO IT.
Jericho, meanwhile, threatens to put Trips out of action with the Walls of Jericho and doesn't. He threatens to prove to the Rock that Rocky will feel pain, and he doesn't.
The same thing happened with Angle, particularly on his first title run. Hell, Angle needed Rikishi to win his first title. Even when he won the Hell in the Cell six way, he didn't do anything to deserve it. People put finishers on everyone else, and Angle just draped an arm over a prone wrestler (I can't remember who.) Hell if that creates a threatening wrestler.
The complaints aren't so much that HHH won, it's that elevated wrestlers are booked to look weak, stupid and, ultimately, to fail. It's a ridiculous way to elevate wrestlers, and the last three guys they've tried it with (Angle, Rikishi and Jericho) have all slipped back to the mid-card (I'm just assuming that's where Jericho will end back up.)
Even rats will stop pressing the button that gives them an electric shock after a while.
Originally posted by 210I KNOW. How dare the WWF let him win over Rock and Austin and carry the belt over 3 straight PPV's. The nerve.
But he was booked to look utterly weak in each match, so that he never had a chance to win and so that everyone knew it. You can argue that was part of his character but it's also a character that is unlikely to make it back to the main event after he returns to the mid-card. He had a title run, but there was no way that was a fair shake of the dice. The company certainly didn't revolve around him (or the Unified Heavyweight Championship of the World), and the only significant things he really got to be part of were matches when he looked like a pussy.
His angles were minimal until they started being more about Steph and Triple H. Was that really a "fair shake of the dice"?
"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."
Originally posted by ekedolphinIt's almost as if the idiot in the back writing this crap is saying, “Hey, let's insult the intelligence of every wrestling fan we have.
i think it's almost as if one of the guys in the back writing this crap came up with a good idea and a couple of the other guys in the back writing this crap changed some of it on the fly and a couple of the guys out in the ring performing this crap nixed stuff and added other stuff intermitantly along the way.
lordofthesmarks: you can say what you want about triple h and you'll be right about some of it, but for all those wins over toppish faces during his rise to the top, it took him four tries to beat the big show.
(edited by Notorious F.A.B. on 21.3.02 0246)
It's just you against the group mind.
I like weiners.
F.A.B, that's true, but by the time H was having trouble with Big Slow he was already pretty well established as a main event player and over with the crowd. Show, however, was not. I believe the title was put on Show in order to attempt to establish as a giant (hee hee, puns) threat, the sort that they envisioned for him when he came over. It didn't work. They had Show wrestling guys like Big Bossman at PPV for the title, and doing it in a sub-main.
However, I do recall Show getting the win on H on a RAW in a fairly clean fashion that got an actual pop from the crowd. I was shocked because it was clear that he was beginning to get over with the crowd as a champion. Amazing what a high profile clean win will do for you, isn't it?
Of course, like one week later they put the title back on H in almost as clean of a finish, the only questionable part of it was H kicking Little Show before pedigreeing Big Show. Nowadays, low blows hardly count as an unclean win.
Your point is well taken, F.A.B. To sum: he did need four tries to go over. His troubles getting past Show were starting to make Show seem a legitimate threat again. As a result, Show started getting over with the fans. Of course, once H got the duke Show was forgotten about by the fans. It's a lesson worth learning, both here and by the writing crew.
However, I do recall Show getting the win on H on a RAW in a fairly clean fashion that got an actual pop from the crowd.
Yup. The last RAW of 1999. Show beat off all of DX, almost took a Pedigree, but Mankind (who had been "fired" earlier in the night) returned to stop that. With HHH staggering, Show hit the Chokeslam and retained the belt.
Unfortunately, he dropped the belt a week later to HHH, which was more or less the end of his run as a main eventer. He sort of kept going after the belt all the way into Wrestlemania 2000 - but you knew there was no way he was ever going to touch it again.
Right now, there is still the chance that the Jericho championship run will end up meaning something good to him in the future. Certainly, that chance is less than it was two weeks ago. But it still exists.
However, note that Stephanie was specific about saying: "If you pin me, I will retire from the WWF." On Monday, if HHH pins Jericho instead of Stephanie... I would love to see someone justify that.
Faust, the only problem with your analysis is that the same dynamic has occured between them regardless of what their roles in the promotion were. When Jericho was the hard charging, never backing down underdog HHH still made him his bitch repeatedly.