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The W - Pro Wrestling - Murderer?! Not Cool! (Page 2)
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NotAWrestler
Pinkelwurst








Since: 6.9.02

Since last post: 4327 days
Last activity: 4319 days
#21 Posted on
I must concur with InVerse ... like it or scream bloody murder about it, you must admit, the "Kane a murderer" angle has gotten everyone in a tizzy, which is exactly the purpose of a "shocker" angle like this.

As for a murder angle being "inappropriate" after 9/11 ... c'mon, if you're willing to let that influence your view of EVERYTHING, especially a poorly-written grapplin' show, then the terrorists did their job better than they'd hoped. It's worse than the "pretend-the-WTC-never-existed" crap that Hollywood was doing.

I don't find it inappropriate, though I did question what the hell Gerwitz has been smoking (RVD must've been in a giving mood). Still, I must admit I'm curious as to how this plays out. If I can't watch it next week, you can be damn sure I'll be on here to find out what happens.

And hey, I like Jericho's current angle. It goes along with his obsession with being a "huge rock star". And it's better than spilled coffee, at least ...

(edited by NotAWrestler on 8.10.02 1429)


"Master! Sir! Did you see my MAD SKILLZ?!?"
-Hammer, Xenogears

"Hey, hey, hey, Rock!"
-"Mizark" Henry
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1393 days
Last activity: 301 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by InVerse

      Originally posted by asteroidboy
      and so on, it's not the same as a friggin staged TV show. So angles like murder carry a different connotation.


    So you know the show is fake but you refuse to treat it as such unless they come out and state as such every week? It must suck to be so anal and not be able to enjoy simple fantasy.



*sigh*

Since they still try to cling to the guise of being "real," at least from the hours of 8 p.m. to 10 p.m., I'm saying that it's not always the best idea to run angles involving murder. Marks (of any age) could get it confused. Because some viewers are gullible. I'll give you an example. I had to interview the guy who just got kicked off Survivor. CBS asked me to please not mention that the entire show was filmed this summer, because a lot of people think it's going on right now.

It's not the same thing, I know, but people don't always get it. And you're expecting a level of sophistication from viewers that many don't have.

Besides, does anyone think this angle is gonna sell tickets?
I just read that No Mercy sales are extremely slow....



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#23 Posted on
I still fail to see how people thinking it's real is a problem. Are you worried that a mob is going to hunt down Kane and extract justice? Is some cop sitting at home who doesn't know it's fake going to come down and arrest Kane on Raw next week? Is some kid going to decide that if Kane killed somebody, then it must be ok, so he's going to go kill somebody too?

We don't even know if this IS a murder angle. All we know is that there was a murder accusation. For all we know, HHH could be completely full of shit and not even Kane has any idea what he's talking about. It's not like Kane gave any definitive reaction last night. Trash the angle after it happens, if you don't like it, but unless you're on the writing team and know exactly how the angle is planned out, what's the point?
DirtyMikeSeaver
Boudin rouge








Since: 19.5.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 56 days
Last activity: 30 days
#24 Posted on
Hey, I'm not the hugest fan of this. I like to think that the complicated storyline of "One guy wants the title that the other one has" would be able to work, but let's face it, no one was excited by this match and it needed some heat on it. I think people are not liking this not so much for the idioticy of the murder storyline, but more about the fact that no one actually believes that the writers can pull this off and make it interesting. InVerse's prior post about Raven/Helms/Bearer's involvement and storyline can prove that you could resonably pull this off. However, given the egos involved, this looks to be a mess waiting to happen. These guys can't even remember that Booker T and Test were once tag champs.

One thing that I give them credit for, at least with this angle, is that they are trying to add depth to the Kane character. I like Kane, but the whole "Kanarooni/Making out with Terri" slant to him wasn't really clicking. Sure, this could be a dog, but if handled well, it could make him more 3 dimensional and interesting.



By the way, Storm's gimmick includes 1.) telling the audience to shut up, and 2.) occasionally making everyone stand for the Canadian national anthem. You know they don't know what to do with a wrestler when he's making fans stand for a national anthem. It's like waving a white flag and saying, "This guy has no personality -- we give up."

ESPN's Bill Simmons
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2997 days
Last activity: 211 days
#25 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    Since they still try to cling to the guise of being "real," at least from the hours of 8 p.m. to 10 p.m., I'm saying that it's not always the best idea to run angles involving murder. Marks (of any age) could get it confused. Because some viewers are gullible.


But assault, battery, kidnapping, smashing ambulances with Mack Trucks, running over people with motor vehicles, demolishing a supermarket, assault with a deadly weapon (hello, Mr. Sledgehammer, Mr. Brass Knuckles and Mr. Flaming Barbed Wire 2x4), attempted rape, corpse theft, various degrees of attempted murder, adultery, prostitution, and performing violent physical actions on other human beings that could reasonably cause permanent harm or death if they were attempted in real life (also known as "wrestling moves") are okay, then?




"No society has managed to invest more time and energy in the perpetuation of the fiction that it is _moral, sane and wholesome_ than our current crop of _Modern Americans_."
-- Frank Zappa
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 6 hours
#26 Posted on
I think tying this to 9/11 is extremely riduculous. Everything doesn't, and shouldn't, revolve around that event. ("The world has changed" was a stupid comment to begin with. Only time will tell what kind of historical impact this event will have) In fact, it's best that we move on.

I also find that saying a show is not fictional because it doesn't run credits lame. And I give most people credit for knowing that TV shows are fictional, even wrestling. And if someone is so stupid to believe it is real, ignoring all references that it's not, then they are too stupid to worry about at all. And even if they do think it's real, what are they going to do about it, call the police? I'm not sure I'm seeing the bad that is going to happen, unless you are suggesting that someone is going to try to take out Kane or Triple H for some reason.

BUT, do I think this angle will work? Nope. Murder is a little further than I'm willing for my supension of disbelief to go. So in a way, I am saying that wrestling is different than other TV shows. But not for offensive or irresponsible reasons. Just for some reason, I expect a little more realism in wrestling than in other TV shows, for entertainment purposes. (That's probably not fair. 24 was a popular show based on a impossible string of events within a 24 hour time-period. But I would be willing to buy that. But it is somehow different with wrestling, I guess because the fiction they portray is a real-life sports organization.)
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2639 days
Last activity: 2638 days
#27 Posted on
WOW, I knew I shouldn't have brought up that 9/11 thing. Well, I just wanted to give you the opinion I had as I saw it. So consider that first post a knee-jerk response as I first saw it. But now that I'm thinking about it, and reading these other posts on this thread, you're right. The way the murder thing was brought up after I had so much fun with TLC and Raw Roulette as a whole just kind of set me off to the point where I was blaming anyone and everyone. Okay, I should not equate the terrorist thing to this. Still, the way the ending went really pissed me off, because it happened so suddenly and kind of harsh as far as endings go, and I didn't agree with it. It could be like that whole Undertaker thing when he accidentally set his house on fire or something. That wouldn't be so bad, but still a tad cheesy for my taste. This is a LONG post, but I felt like letting off some steam from last night. I'm a calmer, gentler Mistress now. Honest!

Ringmistress



Ringmistress - A bitch among heels.
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#28 Posted on
If they did an angle where Kane actually murdered someone on the show, I could buy it as being too unrealistic, but how many murderers are actually walking free on the streets today? There's even a good chance that someone in the crowd last night has killed someone in the past. And besides, I'm still thoroughly convinced that we'll discover that Katie *ick was never murdered, Kane just feels responsible for her death. And if he did murder her, it won't have been on purpose. Haven't any of you read Frankenstein? It's not all that hard to find similarities between Frankenstein's monster and Kane.
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2639 days
Last activity: 2638 days
#29 Posted on
I read Frankenstein (Hell, I saw the movie too!) The first thing I thought about during HHH's accusation was that scene where this girl gave him a flower. If it's implied, then, I'll give it a shot.

Ringmistress



Ringmistress - A bitch among heels.
emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#30 Posted on
I agree completely with everything InVerse has said in this thread. (Well, except the part about Edge being the next Sting. Besides that...) The initial presentation last night might have been timed & exposed a bit better -- yeah, so? The overall story could be really interesting, & give Kane all sorts of push.

I'm just astonished at the level of frenzy about it. Residual second-hand adrenaline from the TLC match???
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2639 days
Last activity: 2638 days
#31 Posted on
Yes, Emma, that's exactly what it was!

Ringmistress



Ringmistress - A bitch among heels.
Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 415 days
Last activity: 376 days
#32 Posted on

    Originally posted by InVerse
    Haven't any of you read Frankenstein? It's not all that hard to find similarities between Frankenstein's monster and Kane.

Hmm, what was it that Phil Hartman's Frankenstein character would say? "FIRE BAD!" No, I'm sorry, I see no connection at all ;-)



Teppan-Yaki
Pepperoni








Since: 28.6.02

Since last post: 901 days
Last activity: 871 days
#33 Posted on

    Originally posted by emma
    I agree completely with everything InVerse has said in this thread. (Well, except the part about Edge being the next Sting. Besides that...) The initial presentation last night might have been timed & exposed a bit better -- yeah, so? The overall story could be really interesting, & give Kane all sorts of push.

    I'm just astonished at the level of frenzy about it. Residual second-hand adrenaline from the TLC match???



No, an adrenaline rush from the TLC match screeching into a brick wall. First thing I thought of when I heard her name was, "Michael Vick has a sister? Poor guy... and she died so young."

I don't mind the gimmick-o-rama that got shoved down our throats; however, bringing in a complete fictional character and left-field plot twist was asinine. At least with Victoria mentioning that Trish hurt her, there's some connection. With Scooby Flair and sHHHaggy on the case of an alleged murderer, well, that's great! Another crime solved and Trips comes out on top. Nothing against him, but I don't feel that this murder angle means anything.



"People say, how can I help on this war against terror? How can I fight evil? You can do so by mentoring a child; by going into a shut-in's house and say I love you."
George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2002
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#34 Posted on

    Originally posted by Teppan-Yaki
    I don't mind the gimmick-o-rama that got shoved down our throats;


So did the WWE at least send a superstar to tie you to your chair and force you to watch the show or did they just send some corporate monkey?
Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

Since last post: 30 days
Last activity: 8 hours
AIM:  
#35 Posted on
I don't like it, one bit.

That having been said, I think it could garner tons of sympathy heaat for Kane. He was riding high, the fans really were digging his schtick, he seemed to be becoming a normal guy and HHH drags him right on back down. Especially if it turns out to be accidental or the like. Either it'll make fans say "Aww...Poor Kane. Things were going so well for him, and then HHH had to go and ruin it." Or, it'll make people hate HHH because he's such a "bastard, bastard, bastard Damn His Lying Soul Straight to Hell!" Or both. Or neither.

[rant]

As much as we hate the current WWE writing staff (with the exception of Internet Writing God Paul Heyman), we sure as hell give them a short leash don't we? There's been a little bit of discussion over on the Random Board about how crappy last year's Buffy, the Vampire Slayer was, and how specific people (namely, Executive Producer Marti Noxon) were to blame, because she'd stated that she'd felt the show should take a more dramatic turn, which it did, to terrible results.

But who's fault was that? The writers who couldn't write a good dramatic episode (though they had in the past)? The actors (who can act in dramatic episodes)? Or the producer (who had written some good and bad storylines)? The Producer of course, though she had no clue how poorly her work would be recieved. Why were the writers who were so good a year or two earlier, so bad this year?

In wrestling we don't have the benifit of knowing who's writing each individual storyline. We have some vague notion that Steph and Brian Comic Book Guy are in charge, and thus deserve all the blame. And rightly so. And no, alot of the writers aren't the same as before, but we hate the one that was with a passion. But how the hell are they supposed to know how an angle will be recieved? If they go back to the well of stories, then we call them stale. If they try something new, we automatically say that we hate it, and then we get all giddy when it fails. We ask "Shouldn't the Title chase be enough?", minutes after saying, ourselves, "The Titles don't mean anything."

Here's a concept: How about building up a main event storyline to make the people going after the titles more over, therefore making the titles themselves more over. Austin/McMahon wasn't about the WWF Title. Sure, Austin wanted the title, but he wanted Vince more. The title was a trophy, for Austin to shove in Vince's face to say "na na, I've got your title." But really, it wasn't about the title at all.

Steph isn't the best writer/booker. She's too personally involved in booking HHH. True and true. But just because she wrote a segment doesn't always mean it will be bad. Just because we percieve that the WWE has no friggin' clue how to book, doesn't mean that they really have no clue how to book. Is this a bad concept for a feud? Yeah... Does that mean that it can't end up being good, or at the very least, decent? No.

I hate it just as much as many of you do. I don't like the concept of this angle. But railing on its execution is just stupid at this point. So, stay skeptical, but at least give it a chance to get off the ground. [/rant]



Since everyone else is doing it (ok, not EVERYONE, but...)

Vikings (0-4) - Bye weeks are boring (round 2)
Badgers (5-1) - Congrats to Penn State. Time to rethink our defense.
Twins (0-0) - 'Tis a new season! Really scary finish though...
Buffy 7.2 earns a 8.8 Out of 10 for being the funniest episode since "Tabula Rasa" and without the dramatic ending. It might even have scored higher if my UPN's audio didn't cut out and I didn't have to watch it in closed captioning...
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1393 days
Last activity: 301 days
#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by vsp

      Originally posted by asteroidboy
      Since they still try to cling to the guise of being "real," at least from the hours of 8 p.m. to 10 p.m., I'm saying that it's not always the best idea to run angles involving murder. Marks (of any age) could get it confused. Because some viewers are gullible.


    But assault, battery, kidnapping, smashing ambulances with Mack Trucks, running over people with motor vehicles, demolishing a supermarket, assault with a deadly weapon (hello, Mr. Sledgehammer, Mr. Brass Knuckles and Mr. Flaming Barbed Wire 2x4), attempted rape, corpse theft, various degrees of attempted murder, adultery, prostitution, and performing violent physical actions on other human beings that could reasonably cause permanent harm or death if they were attempted in real life (also known as "wrestling moves") are okay, then?



I don't want to sound like the PTC, but man, there's gotta be some kind of line. Yes, the WWE pushes it all the time, but why jump over it with a murder angle? Granted, we'll probably find out that Kane didn't do it, but does that make it better?

And if you're going with the "it's all entertainment defense" remember that JR spent much of last week's show comparing it to Monday Night Football.



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#37 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    And if you're going with the "it's all entertainment defense" remember that JR spent much of last week's show comparing it to Monday Night Football.


Actually, he was explaining why you *can't* compare Monday Night Football to Raw. Besides, the NFL has had more than it's share of murderers, so what's your point?
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1393 days
Last activity: 301 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95

    Originally posted by InVerse

      Originally posted by asteroidboy
      And if you're going with the "it's all entertainment defense" remember that JR spent much of last week's show comparing it to Monday Night Football.


    Actually, he was explaining why you *can't* compare Monday Night Football to Raw. Besides, the NFL has had more than it's share of murderers, so what's your point?




During RAW's main event between Jericho and Kane, JR said (in the middle of knocking the NFL), "We don't take a break here! We'll keep going until we have a winner!!"
That's not comparing??

I must have missed the NFL game where Brett Favre came out before a game and called Ray Lewis a murderer. Are you being dense on purpose, InVerse??



"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex

"Was he no-selling?" - Me
UrbanZombie
Chaurice








Since: 8.10.02

Since last post: 3735 days
Last activity: 3696 days
#39 Posted on
I just wanted to point out that Inverse's theory for how this could work out is brilliant. So good that I registered just to post a compliment. See, it's not hard to put together a logical, subtle storyline, guys... how come you can't do it when you're presumably *paying* an entire roster of writers? I don't ask for Shakespeare, just the general idea that you have a plan that extends beyond "And then you say 'YOU'RE A MURDERERAAH!' and spread your arms. Yeah, just like that."
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

Since last post: 16 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#40 Posted on

    Originally posted by asteroidboy
    During RAW's main event between Jericho and Kane, JR said (in the middle of knocking the NFL), "We don't take a break here! We'll keep going until we have a winner!!"
    That's not comparing??

    I must have missed the NFL game where Brett Favre came out before a game and called Ray Lewis a murderer. Are you being dense on purpose, InVerse??



Yes, that's comparing by saying the WWE isn't the NFL. They've never said "Hey, we're just like the NFL." they've repeatedly stated that they're not anything like football. Yet you see that as evidence that they should be judged just like football?

As for murderers in the NFL, let's see. A few years ago, Rae Carruth of the Panthers was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of his part in the murder of his girlfriend. I won't even bother to get into OJ.

And go ahead and point out that nobody called Carruth a murderer on Monday Night Football. I'll point out once again that wrestling and football are entirely different things. One is a sport and the other is an entertainment program.
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