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Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Yup, the Results are in and they may surprirse you

Dean: 43.87%
Kucinich: 23.93%
Kerry: 15.73%
Edwards: 3.19%
Gephardt: 2.44%
Graham: 2.24%
Braun: 2.21%
Undecided: 2.01%
Other: 1.93%
Lieberman: 1.92%
Clark(as a write-in): 0.92%
Sharpton: 0.53%
Gore(as a write-in): 0.24%
HMS Hillary(as write-in): 0.19%

This is the Democratic base that is going to decdied the nomination?!? HA!



"When life hands you lemons, head down the hall, hide in the closet of your enemy, wait until they get a papercut, then leap out shouting BANZAI and crush the lemon in your hand right over the papercut. Save the peel. Go downstairs to the bar. Order a vodka. Use the peel. Yum!"
- James Lileks
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OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 5 days
AIM:  
#2 Posted on
It's not the base - it's the Progressive wing. I voted - for Howard Dean - and am glad to see that he's probably going to get the support of those Democrats who actually have the guts to stand and fight.

I know it seems impossible that a relatively unknown governer from a mid-sized state could rally enough support to defeat a sitting President named George Bush who's riding high after a victory in Iraq despite a shady economic plan, but stranger things have happened...



redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 389 days
Last activity: 389 days
#3 Posted on
Dean and Kucinich with 67% of the vote? I guess the theory that the real nutcases are on computers has picked up some evidence. And how could the Rev. Al Sharpton get .5%? I think Reverend Al should start protesting that his supporters are not allowed to demonstrate on the information superhighway.



Where have you gone Gene Rayburn, a nation turns it lonely eyes to you.
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2944 days
Last activity: 158 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Grimis
    This is the Democratic base that is going to decide the nomination?!? HA!


Nope. It's the base that (a) is Internet-savvy, (b) is sufficiently politically motivated to give a rat's ass at this well-before-the-primaries point, and (c) felt strongly enough to register and vote in this "primary."

Given those facts, is it any real surprise that the progressive wing (Dean, Kucinich, Kerry) absolutely slaughtered the party-preferred status-quo frontrunners (Gephardt, Lieberman) by a twenty-to-one ratio, or that Lieberman lost to both "Undecided" AND "Other?"

That said, Kucinich will disappear as soon as fundraising becomes a pressing need. Despite his results here, Gephardt and Lieberman aren't dead yet (though I can dream, can't I), and will try to make the Dean-Kerry dogfight into a four-horse race.




"You may be wondering why I have been making so many references lately to Fox News. The reason is that it is now my cable news network of choice -- because if Im going to watch the news and be lied to, I want it to be ridiculously obvious that I am being lied to." -- Center for an Informed America, Newsletter #34
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2455 days
Last activity: 558 days
#5 Posted on
What makes you guys think that Dean is some crazy irresponsible leftie?

Honestly - as far as I've seen, his policies are nothing like Dennis K.'s, so why lump them together?

The results look, to me, like Dean and Kuchinich are the only ones who stand out from the crowd, and the other (prety much indistinguishable from each other) candidates split what was left.

The thing I find interesting (and encouraging) is that, despite reports that conservatives were being urged to register and vote for Sharpton in order to sabotage the Democrats, he still finished dead last.

Also very happy about protofascist Leiberman's poor showing.

I'm looking forward to the Dean/Clark ticket, which is a lot closer to the political center of america than the ticket which the Republicans are going to throw out there.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
ScreamingHeadGuy
Frankfurter








Since: 1.2.02
From: Appleton, WI

Since last post: 659 days
Last activity: 659 days
#6 Posted on
I don't actually view Dean as a "centrist" by any means. I saw him on Meet the Press last Sunday and all I could think was how this guy was so unprepared. I know Tim is a pretty good host and keeps his political leanings (whatever they may be) out of the show, but his simple questions just hit Dean so hard.

But I'll wait to see what the actual primaries show. 'Cuz I believe this a very unscientific poll at best.



Fashion Reporter Extraordinare

Wisdom is learning from one's mistakes.
Greater wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.

Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    What makes you guys think that Dean is some crazy irresponsible leftie?


OK...from a column in today's Wash TimeS

- as a med student [Dean] performed his ob-gyn rotation at a Planned Parenthood clinic? Vermont magazine reported on this in 1998, adding: "While he has never performed an abortion himself, he is strongly pro-choice and certainly understands the medical procedures involved." This rates as the medical equivalent of not inhaling.

- Dean, is an opponent of parental notification

= Vermont under Dean was one of a handful of states in which abortions may be performed by non-doctors? In 1998 the last year the state released data 183 girls under the age of 18 had abortions, more than half of them performed by non-doctors

- Vermont had the third highest percentage of Medicaid recipients in the Union

- Vermont has one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the nation. Corporations have left Vermont; farm revenues are down; logging and manufacturing jobs have disappeared; maybe the only sector to thrive in the Dean years is the public sector.


Under than the gun stuff, he's out to lunch. Not as much as Kucinich mind you, but still...



"When life hands you lemons, head down the hall, hide in the closet of your enemy, wait until they get a papercut, then leap out shouting BANZAI and crush the lemon in your hand right over the papercut. Save the peel. Go downstairs to the bar. Order a vodka. Use the peel. Yum!"
- James Lileks
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3816 days
Last activity: 3761 days
#8 Posted on
MoveOn is a progressive site, so a higher than average amount of support for Kucinich shoudn't be a big surprise.

That having been said, it's pretty easy to predict the primaries already. Iowa will probably go to Gephardt or Lieberman, New Hampshire to Dean or Kerry. At this point, the Dem race basically drops down to two people: whoever wins Iowa (the "centrist" candidate) and whoever wins New Hampshire (the "progressive" candidate). Of course, this assumes that Iowa doesn't go to Dean, who's been polling stronger and stronger there. If Dean wins Iowa the nom is his to lose.

You have to look at the Dem field rationally. Mosely-Braun and Sharpton have no chance and everybody knows it, so they're just running on pride. Kucinich won't get the funding (and he looks like a Smurf) so he's out. Graham is basically running to show his stuff as a potential veep candidate right now.

Lieberman's widely loathed by the progressive wing and grassroots of the party, and conventional wisdom is probably right when they say that A) he's too indistingushable from the Republicans on too many issues and B) America isn't going to elect an orthodox Jew into the White House.

The one thing that could really help Lieberman is the discovery of WMDs in Iraq, but even that doesn't help him as much as it does Edwards, who has the pro-war thing that Lieberman does but Edwards is a southern, good-looking Christian and Edwards has more fire in his belly than Lieberman. That having been said, Edwards is probably still too green to get the nomination right now - this is a trial run for him, and he's doing well thus far on that basis.

That leaves Kerry, Gephardt, and Dean. Gephardt is running because he's popular with party bigwigs who will give him a lot of cash. Kerry and Dean are running with far less corporate support than Gephardt, but are competitive with Gephardt (who is a sad sack of shit, IMO) and their grassroots organization smash the crap out of anything either party is doing. Dean's campaign is getting thirty thousand people to meet up on their own.

Kerry's got good people working for him, and so does Dean, so it boils down thusly: Kerry looks like Frankenstein's Monster, and Dean looks like a normal joe you can have a beer with. And that last factor is pretty important.
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2455 days
Last activity: 558 days
#9 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
      What makes you guys think that Dean is some crazy irresponsible leftie?


    OK...from a column in today's Wash TimeS

    - as a med student [Dean] performed his ob-gyn rotation at a Planned Parenthood clinic? Vermont magazine reported on this in 1998, adding: "While he has never performed an abortion himself, he is strongly pro-choice and certainly understands the medical procedures involved." This rates as the medical equivalent of not inhaling.

    - Dean, is an opponent of parental notification

    = Vermont under Dean was one of a handful of states in which abortions may be performed by non-doctors? In 1998 the last year the state released data 183 girls under the age of 18 had abortions, more than half of them performed by non-doctors

    - Vermont had the third highest percentage of Medicaid recipients in the Union

    - Vermont has one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the nation. Corporations have left Vermont; farm revenues are down; logging and manufacturing jobs have disappeared; maybe the only sector to thrive in the Dean years is the public sector.


    Under than the gun stuff, he's out to lunch. Not as much as Kucinich mind you, but still...



And then I would counter with...

Dean is for a balanced budget, pro death penalty, & gets and 'A' from the NRA. These are not positions embraced on the left.

He's also pro-choice, pro universal healthcare, pro gay rights, so I'll grant you that he's to the left on those.

Farm revenue, logging and manufacturing jobs are down all over, probably even in Texas. I notice that overall employment figures are left out (leading me to believe that they aren't negative), and the public sector point seems to be pure speculation.

Dean's defense and security plans look moderate to me, and any percieved leftward tilt can be corrected by VP candidate Graham or Clark.

So, he's a little left on some things, a little right on some others. Looks like the center to me.










-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    Dean is for a balanced budget, pro death penalty, & gets and 'A' from the NRA. These are not positions embraced on the left.

Dean is on the record as saying he is for state's rights on gun issues, but also for further federal regulation of the ever amorphous "assault weapons". So that's a wash as far as I'm concerned. He may be for a balanced budget, but it's damn hard to do that when your for universal, single-paer healthcare.


    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    Farm revenue, logging and manufacturing jobs are down all over, probably even in Texas. I notice that overall employment figures are left out (leading me to believe that they aren't negative), and the public sector point seems to be pure speculation.
OK, I'll grant that.


    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    Dean's defense and security plans look moderate to me, and any percieved leftward tilt can be corrected by VP candidate Graham or Clark.

I wouldn't say that is a "perceived" left-ward tilt. Dean is indifferent on ensuring that the US has the strongest military in the world. His foreign policy speech clearly tated "we will not always have the strongest military." While that's not at the Kucinich level of wackiness, it's pretty sad. Clark isn't really going to help either because Clark's military policy involves interventions all over the place and putting troops under NATO command i.e. under the comman of a non-American. That's not strong military or foreign policy in my book.



"When life hands you lemons, head down the hall, hide in the closet of your enemy, wait until they get a papercut, then leap out shouting BANZAI and crush the lemon in your hand right over the papercut. Save the peel. Go downstairs to the bar. Order a vodka. Use the peel. Yum!"
- James Lileks
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2944 days
Last activity: 158 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by Grimis
    Dean is indifferent on ensuring that the US has the strongest military in the world. His foreign policy speech clearly stated "we will not always have the strongest military." While that's not at the Kucinich level of wackiness, it's pretty sad.


What's so sad about it? History is littered with regimes and countries who _once_ could claim to be the strongest military in the world, but are no longer on that level. Some had other nations gang up on them (Germany in WWII comes to mind). Some stretched their resources too thin, or spent themselves out of contention (British Empire, 80's Russia). Some were defeated by another nation's technological advances, or fell victim to superior wartime strategy.

It's not as if Dean said that we shouldn't _try_ to maintain the strongest military, or that R&D and training should be shut down, or that all military spending and/or staffing should be slashed. What he said was that nobody playing King of the Hill stays at the top forever. That's not wackiness, that's called "learning from history."



"You may be wondering why I have been making so many references lately to Fox News. The reason is that it is now my cable news network of choice -- because if Im going to watch the news and be lied to, I want it to be ridiculously obvious that I am being lied to." -- Center for an Informed America, Newsletter #34
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2455 days
Last activity: 558 days
#12 Posted on
What VSP said. If China can keep economic growth going at anything close to it's current rate, it will be able to easily outspend the US in the not-too-distant future, no matter how much the US spends. It just makes sense to recognize that.

Also, I agree that a balanced budget + universal health care is difficult. Not impossible, though. I'm pretty sure Canada is doing it now, and has for the last few years.

As far as the military/foreign policy things, I don't particularly like the policy of intervening all over the place that much. It just seems a lot like Clinton's policy, and Clinton wasn't a huge liberal in my book. My overall point is just that I don't think Dean is to the left of electability.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3816 days
Last activity: 3761 days
#13 Posted on
I saw him on Meet the Press last Sunday and all I could think was how this guy was so unprepared. I know Tim is a pretty good host and keeps his political leanings (whatever they may be) out of the show, but his simple questions just hit Dean so hard.

I saw it as well and although I'll concede that it was probably Dean's single weakest TV opportunity thus far, I disagree with Tim Russert keeping his ideological bent out of the show. He traditionally goes attack-dog on Democrats - a good example was when Dean answered the question on how many troops in Iraq with "I think 135,000" and Russert just went OFF on that "you think?" - because it's vitally important to know down to the penny how mny troops are there instead of something like, you know, what to do with them - and fawns over Republicans.
Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2455 days
Last activity: 558 days
#14 Posted on
Actually, Russert used to be an aide to Sen. Moynihan and Gov. Cuomo, Democrats both. He's always seemed to attack everyone fairly equally to me.


Link: http://www.washingtonian.com/people/journalists.html
It's about a third of the way down the page.



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2740 days
Last activity: 2583 days
AIM:  
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Mr. Heat Miser
    I'm looking forward to the Dean/Clark ticket, which is a lot closer to the political center of america than the ticket which the Republicans are going to throw out there.


There are states in the US that don't abut an ocean, you know. The Democrats' seeming ignorance of this fact is why they're going to lose in '04, as long as GW doesn't shoot himself in the foot. It's why any Republican with charisma is going to beat Hillary in '08.

Or so I will boldly and foolishy proclaim in '03.

Edit: And my definition of learning from history is not repeating it.

(edited by PalpatineW on 27.6.03 1910)

MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 3 hours
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Vermont doesn't abut an ocean. Perhaps it's not Utah, but it isn't Massachusettes either. Pro-Gun, Pro-Balanced budget, Pro-Universal Healthcare (it's the rich business owners, not Joe and Mary Jones, who has a problem with this) and a down-to-earth persona are good issues for these states.

Why Dean will win: Because America has shown a strange affinity for voting for patrician sons of priviledge masquerading as Joe Six-Pack. Someone's got to explain this one to me.



"I'm sorry, I didn't think I was going to talk about 'man on dog' with a United States Senator. It's sort of freaking me out."


Associated Press interview with Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), 04-07-2003.
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 22 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54


    I'm looking forward to the Dean/Clark ticket, which is a lot closer to the political center of america than the ticket which the Republicans are going to throw out there.


I thought Wesley Clark was thinking of running for Prez on his own? Is that old news by now?






Over 1500 posts and still never a Wiener of the Day!






Oliva: You are the weakest link! Goodbye!

Stewie: Ahahaha. Oh God, that's funny. That's really funny. You write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. 'You are the weakest link. Goodbye!' You know I've never heard anyone make that joke before. You're the first. I've never heard anyone reference that outside program before. Because that's what she says on the show, right? Hmmm? 'You are the weakest link. Goodbye!' And ye...ye..yet you've taken it and....and used it out of context to insult me in this everyday situation. What a clever, smart girl you must be. To come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmmmm...that's so fresh too. Any Titanic jokes you want to throw at me as long as we're hitting these phenomena at the height of their popularity. Mmmm? Cuz i'm here God you're so funny!


godking
Chourico








Since: 20.10.02
From: Toronto

Since last post: 3816 days
Last activity: 3761 days
#18 Posted on
I thought Wesley Clark was thinking of running for Prez on his own? Is that old news by now?

Clark's biding his time to make a decision about running, it looks like. He'd certainly be first pick for most campaigns for the veep slot if he wanted it, but Clark's a fairly good speaker and very solid on national security so maybe he'll go for the whole enchilada. Thing is, he's not a registered Democrat, so maybe he'd run as an independent (which would get him slaughtered, pure and simple). Bill Clinton just had an interview the other day where he spoke highly of Clark, which was pretty obviously a "come to the big tent, Wesley" speech.

Incidentally, Dean's second-quarter fundraising is, with about forty hours to go, at just over six million dollars. That would probably put him in either first place for fundraising among all the Dem candidates or an extremely strong second - but what's really impressive about it is that about half of it came in the last eight days in the form of about twenty thousand individual contributions.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2740 days
Last activity: 2583 days
AIM:  
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Clark may think he's gonna run for President, but I don't see it happening. Even if he is, personally, a savvy politician, he doesn't have the DNC machine behind him. Furthermore, all the other candidates are way too far ahead of him. Unless he finds himself some sort of Dick Morris or Karl Rove figure, I think Wesley is gonna have to settle for scrapping it out for veep.



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1180 days
Last activity: 977 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by godking
    Incidentally, Dean's second-quarter fundraising is, with about forty hours to go, at just over six million dollars.

Irony being that the President raised more than that last week.


    Originally posted by godking
    but what's really impressive about it is that about half of it came in the last eight days in the form of about twenty thousand individual contributions.

That would be different for a Democrat. Most Democratic donors a large money donors, while Republicans pick up more invidiual donors(this is why the Democrat's beloved campaign finance package has killed them; The higest percentage of Democratic soft money donors were donoros of $100,000+. For Republicans it was and likely still is $25-50.)



"When life hands you lemons, head down the hall, hide in the closet of your enemy, wait until they get a papercut, then leap out shouting BANZAI and crush the lemon in your hand right over the papercut. Save the peel. Go downstairs to the bar. Order a vodka. Use the peel. Yum!"
- James Lileks
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