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The W - Current Events & Politics - More Gender equity issues
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
http://www.ntdaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/11/27/3de48a9507750

A college junior gets it; why can't the rest of America?



LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
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Pool-Boy
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#2 Posted on
Buy my copy of Animal Crossing for the Nintendo Gamecube! Private Message me if you are interested!

I could not agree more. But it is the bullshit PC mindset that lets things like this happen. If you form a private women's group- great! YEAH feminism! But if you form a private men's group (Augusta anyone?)- you are IMMEDIATLY labeled sexist, behind the times, and evil.
The same is true with race. Why isn't the NAACP considered racist? If there was a group that was identicle in all ways, except it was for the advancement of white Europeans, it would be considered the most racist thing on this planet.
And I could not agree more about how men are portrayed on TV. It is indeed a symptom of a larger problem. All things associated with masculinity are either villified or co-opted.
Why can't men be men, and women still enjoy equality?




"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#3 Posted on
I can see where he's coming from and the point about girls outperforming boys academically now is true, but...

-outside of a Michael Douglas movie, when is the last time a man was in danger of losing his job for not fucking the boss.

-1 in 3 women in America have or will be raped.

-The numbers of female CEO's and those in high management postitions is getting much better, but is nowhere near proportional to men.

-Do you REALLY think there are as many ads, movies, and TV shows that reduce men to sexual objects as women. How many fat women do you see in a positive role on TV? How many fat men?





"All we are is meat."

-The Deftones
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by astrobstrd
    I can see where he's coming from and the point about girls outperforming boys academically now is true, but...

    -outside of a Michael Douglas movie, when is the last time a man was in danger of losing his job for not fucking the boss.

    -1 in 3 women in America have or will be raped.

    -The numbers of female CEO's and those in high management postitions is getting much better, but is nowhere near proportional to men.

    -Do you REALLY think there are as many ads, movies, and TV shows that reduce men to sexual objects as women. How many fat women do you see in a positive role on TV? How many fat men?




Back up your rape statistic with some facts, or retract it. That's horribly overstated.

You have to use some extremely bad math to come up with a number like that. For 2001, there were 90,491 forcible rapes reported by FBI in their Uniform Crime Rate study. UCR 2001.

According to the CIA factbook the US Population is 280,562,489 (July 2002 est.) with a .96 male / female ratio - giving us approximately 143,144,127 females in the country.

To make the numbers easier for everyone, we'll round off in a manner that makes the rate of rapes look higher than it actually is -- let's say there were 100,000 women raped and that the population is only 140,000,000. That means that last year one out of 1400 women in the country was raped... actually, it was lower than this, but you see my point. It is no-where near the 1/3 that it appears from the last poster.

Now, if you have an even rate of rape in this country, and an even population growth, and you assume that no one woman is ever raped twice, and that being raped is an equal probability for every year of someones life (this is not even remotely close to being the truth, but go with it here) and that people will live 100 years (which is 19.8 years longer than the life expectancy for women in the US) -- Then the numbers go up to 1/14 women. To get to the 1/3 number you have to add in the "silent victims" number, which I guess is assuming that for every rape reported there are 2 more that don't go reported.

It takes a lot of work to make it look as bad as you have reported.

Tell me where I've gone wrong, and what source you have that is more credible.



Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

pieman
As young as
he feels








Since: 11.12.01
From: China, Maine

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.21


That is compelling mathematical logic, Aaron. I cannot see what you missed in your response.



He's Rolie Polie Olie - and in his world of curves and curls, he's the swellest kid around.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by astrobstrd
    1 in 3 women in America have or will be raped


You do realize that such a statistic generally comes from extreme left-wing feminist groups? The king of groups that say that any sexual activity(consensual or not) is rape? I wish for the life of me I remember what the name of the woman who said that was, but she was a prominent feminists and was working for NOW at some point. I'll try to do some research and fins something...



LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

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#7 Posted on
I'm sorry, I should have said raped or molested, my fault. The number came from sex ed so it is relatively recent, six years or so. It was just such a striking number that I remembered it. For those who think it was the "liberal" school system, this was in Cincinnati, generally considered slightly more right-wing than Jerry Falwell. The number quoted for men was something like 1/8, with much more of that coming from molestation than rape.



"All we are is meat."

-The Deftones
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#8 Posted on
Molestation is counted (for women) in the figure for rape. Check out the link for the definitions that the FBI uses for the UCR.

Don't believe everything that you are taught in school. The numbers don't back up what you were told.





Your analogy is similar to:

"They already have cars that you can drive, why not blenders?"
"I can already write with my hands, why not my pancreas?"
"They already have beef that I can eat, why not granite?"

-- my new favorite quote from Slashdot comments.

Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#9 Posted on
See, I never trust statistics anymore. With enough work, you can always "fix" them so that they are more in-line for what you are trying to promote. The cell-phone ban currently being attempted in California is a perfect example of this. But that is another thread-
The point is, even IF 1/3 women have been raped, how does that change the sexual equality argument one whit? Men, by nature, are typically stronger and more sexually agressive than women. A woman would have a lot harder time raping a man, and seriously, how many men would consider it rape?
The point is that rape, while a horrific crime, has nothing to do with sexual equality.
Now women in the workplace DO. However, your argument is flawed. Sure, there are not as many women in the "CEO" spot, and other upper echelon posts, but seriously, EVERYONE knows that change like that does not happen overnight. And if you take a look at the upward mobility of women currently in the middle and upper-middle management positions in major corperations, I am sure that the numbers reflect better than the CEO stats (and I had several years dealing with executives at all levels when I was working in corperate travel, so I do have some direct exposure to this). The fact is that it takes at least a generation for that kind of social change to take place. The women who were nowhere near a CEO position cannot be simply thrust there because it is now OK for them to be there. They need the education, experience, and above all, the mindset to take that sort of position. The women climbing up that corperate ladder now are the first large-group of women since this whole sufferance movement suceeded to be on the track to take those positions. Wait 10-15 years, and you will see the numbers change dramatically.
That aside... there is a definite trend in sexist attitutes towards men. Why is it OK to be anti-masculinity, and men in general, but these same attitudes, if applied to women, are OK? Isn't sexism wrong, no matter who the target is?




"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#10 Posted on
A great example of statistics skewering is an essay I read by a feminist saying how dangerous America is for women. She said how nearly as many women are raped in America as in the war-zone of Bosnia.... and I'm sure some people will see that and think "WOW! AMERICA IS HORRIBLE!" but anyone with half a brain should look and realize that in America there are hundreds of millions of people and in the Bosnia (sorry if the spelling of Bosnia is wrong BTW) warzone there aren't nearly as many people.



Midterms suck, but not as bad as necro angles.
astrobstrd
Bockwurst








Since: 13.3.02
From: Loveland, OH

Since last post: 2581 days
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#11 Posted on
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Molestation is counted (for women) in the figure for rape. Check out the link for the definitions that the FBI uses for the UCR.

    Don't believe everything that you are taught in school. The numbers don't back up what you were told.




I stand corrected and am humble enough to admit that I was an idiot. I will now mutilate the genitals of those who taught me these erronious facts :-).

It just always amazes me that the people who claim equality has been reached by a group are never the ones in that group.

I don't approve of sexist attitudes towards men and I can see what the author here is getting at, but to say that it is proportionate to sexist attitudes towards women is a load of crap.

For every bumbling idiot dad character on TV, there is a bland, unfunny mom. This is mainly because the wacky dad is a comedian and the mom is a dramatic actress. Notice who gets top billing and who gets offered more shows. Also notice that the comedian is often, let's be kind and say 'average' looking, while the wife is amazingly attractive. Can you name any show where the main character is an 'average' looking woman, married to a handsome man? For every ad that uses male sexuality to sell a product to women there are ten that do so with women (note, these numbers are hyperbole, please don't call me on them :-).)

(edited by astrobstrd on 3.12.02 2141)


"All we are is meat."

-The Deftones
Stephanie
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Madison, WI

Since last post: 522 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    The same is true with race. Why isn't the NAACP considered racist? If there was a group that was identicle in all ways, except it was for the advancement of white Europeans, it would be considered the most racist thing on this planet.


There is such a group - it's called the Ku Klux Klan. (Though I suppose the Klan is slightly more violent than the NAACP.)

Steph

(edited by Stephanie on 4.12.02 0403)

I'm going twenty-four hours a day...I can't seem to stop

- "Turn Up The Radio", Autograph
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
Moderator








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by Stephanie
      Originally posted by Pool-Boy
      The same is true with race. Why isn't the NAACP considered racist? If there was a group that was identicle in all ways, except it was for the advancement of white Europeans, it would be considered the most racist thing on this planet.


    There is such a group - it's called the Ku Klux Klan. (Though I suppose the Klan is slightly more violent than the NAACP.)

    Steph

    (edited by Stephanie on 4.12.02 0403)



the CP in NAACP means "Everyone who's not white"

they defend not just Black African-Americans, but Latinos, Asians, Native Americans...

i don't know if the NAACP is doing any good anymore. If i went just by what the NAACP said, then all blacks are 1) stupid because they all fail tests, and 2) all are afraid of the police

1) I keep hearing the argument "Blacks don't test well" on the news because VA wants to use SOL tests [Standard of learning, not Shit outta luck, tee hee] to determine who graduates from middle -> high school and out of high school. the NAACP say they are standardized tests and "Blacks don't test well"

2) Gov. Glendenning [i think] wanted MD state police to protect pollers from the sniper for the elections. the NAACP was going to sue the state because "The black voters would be denied their right to vote because they would be fearful for their lives from and intimidated by the presence of the police."



(edited by rikidozan on 4.12.02 0644)


DDP: Well, there's this little passage I got memorized, Diamond Dallas 25:17. Sort of fits this occasion:

"The path of the bookerman is beset on all sides by the inequities of the talented, and the tyranny of workrate freaks. Blessed is he, who in the name of tradition and sports entertainment carries the stiffs through the matches of Nitro, for he is truly the workrate's keeper, and the finder of lost quality. And I will lay the smack down upon thee with great vengeance and furious roid rage those who attempt to outwrestle and expose my brothers. And you will know my name as the Bookerman, when I lay my catchphrase upon thee!"

DDP & Kevin: *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!* *BANG!*
-From MrJF's Pulp Bookerman

R-D-Z
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1270 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by rikidozan
    2) Gov. Glendenning [i think] wanted MD state police to protect pollers from the sniper for the elections. the NAACP was going to sue the state because "The black voters would be denied their right to vote because they would be fearful for their lives from and intimidated by the presence of the police


This is the same reason the NAACP is against voter identification laws. Somehow, it is intimidation to prove that you are who you say you are.


    Originally posted by astrobstrd
    Also notice that the comedian is often, let's be kind and say 'average' looking, while the wife is amazingly attractive.


That's always annoyed me too. Not because they are overly "attractive" is because they are generally stick figures with no body mass at all, and frankly most guys I know aren't into that. The same reason that lots of people loved Molly Holly when she was actually on TV; she was a realistic looking woman and amazingly attractive to boot.



LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
OlFuzzyBastard
Knackwurst








Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by Stephanie
      Originally posted by Pool-Boy
      The same is true with race. Why isn't the NAACP considered racist? If there was a group that was identicle in all ways, except it was for the advancement of white Europeans, it would be considered the most racist thing on this planet.


    There is such a group - it's called the Ku Klux Klan. (Though I suppose the Klan is slightly more violent than the NAACP.)

    Steph

    (edited by Stephanie on 4.12.02 0403)



That's a very astute observation. I remember a friend of mine who was out talking to a black girl and the NAACP beat the shit out of him and then hung him from a tree, then they started burning crosses in his family's yard to drive them out of town. Yep, no difference at all between the KKK and the NAACP.

(By the way, when I went to type KKK, out of habit, I typed HHH. Coincidence?!)



Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1270 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    That's a very astute observation. I remember a friend of mine who was out talking to a black girl and the NAACP beat the shit out of him and then hung him from a tree, then they started burning crosses in his family's yard to drive them out of town. Yep, no difference at all between the KKK and the NAACP


Replace "NAACP" with "gangs in Baltimore" and you're actually dead on.


    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    (By the way, when I went to type KKK, out of habit, I typed HHH. Coincidence?!)


Both just as useless and dated...



LIBERAL- adj: abundant, incapable, self-serving, racist, confiscatory, welfare-loving, anti-liberty, scrooge-like, indulgent, lavish, unprincipled, closed-minded, philanthropic with other peoples money, big-government loving, selfish, uptight, unrealisitc, unenlightened, discriminatory, totalitarian, partial, strict, overpermissive, intolerant, biased, bigoted, prejudiced
-------Real-life experience
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 day
#17 Posted on
Oh Christ. Before you conservatives start to wet yourselves anymore over the huge NOW conspiracy to castrate all men, here is the rational behind the "1 in 3."

Guru used numbers from the Uniform Crime Rate. This is one of two measures the nation uses for crime. The other is the National Crime Victimization Survey. For more information about the repective methosology and the differences between the two Click Here

The biggest difference is that the NCVS takes into account unreported crimes. Guru says that the "1 in 3" would have to be based on the assumption that for every rape reported, 2 more go unreported.

According to the NCVS, there were 256,770 rapes or sexual assaults in 2000, which is a little less than 3x the 90,491 reported for 2001 by the UCR.

I'm not much of a statistitian (and I certainly agree with Pool-Boy to never trust statistics), and won't do all the various extrapolations and such Guru did, and as a result I can't tell what that would equal in terms of how many women have been the victim of sexual assaults in their life.

Besides, the variables are insane. Crime rates fluctuate, the methodology of the survey cahnged in 1992, the % of sexual assaults that have been reported I'm sure has gone up in the last 50 years or so, our DEFINITION of a sexual assault has changed in the last 50 years, women are assauted at different rate depending on age, etc., etc., etc.

This is just to point out that there is another number out there that is significantly higher than the one Guru bases his extrapolation on.

EDIT: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0004.pdf

This is where I got the 266 and change number from. It's a big pdf, so beware. Click on table 59 in the left hand menu for the number of incidents by type of crime.


(edited by MoeGates on 4.12.02 1146)

Expressing myself EVERY day - but especially on July 22, 2002!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#18 Posted on
Isn't it Martha - whatshername (the woman who wants to get into Augusta) that seriously proposed a plan that all men be sterilized, and if they want the procedure reversed in order to have kids, they had to petition the government for permission? Gee, that woman is a winner...

I never claimed that the NAACP was equal to the KKK... and YES, the CP means colored persons- and the very fact that they are an organization that promotes anyone, as long as they are not white, makes them racist. First off, they make a distinction between people based on the color of their skin (I thought MLKjr's whole vision was a world with men and women who were colorless in the eyes of society?), and secondly, it SPECIFICALLY EXCLUSES whites. That is racist! Like I said, if I made an group with virtually identical goals, and called it the NAAAPBB (National Association for the Advancement of all Persons but Blacks) that operated in the exact same fashion as the NAACP, except it exclused blacks and included whites, it would not last 2 days- the cries of anger and RACIST would dog it at every turn.

My opinion is- if you want to get rid of racism, STOP differentiating between the races as a matter of policy. The NAACP points out that colored people are inferior, because they need a helping hand to keep up with the "white man." And it also teaches that colored people are all victims, and I am sorry, someone with a victim mindset will have a lot harder time being really sucessful.

You can be proud of your heritage, and you can talk about your skin color as a means of describing yourself, but in any other way, race-grouping is nothing more than racism...





"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 3 days
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#19 Posted on
Isn't it Martha - whatshername (the woman who wants to get into Augusta) that seriously proposed a plan that all men be sterilized, and if they want the procedure reversed in order to have kids, they had to petition the government for permission? Gee, that woman is a winner...

Jesus, I wasn't being serious about conservative castration paranoia, but maybe I should be.



Expressing myself EVERY day - but especially on July 22, 2002!
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Isn't it Martha - whatshername (the woman who wants to get into Augusta) that seriously proposed a plan that all men be sterilized, and if they want the procedure reversed in order to have kids, they had to petition the government for permission? Gee, that woman is a winner...

    Jesus, I wasn't being serious about conservative castration paranoia, but maybe I should be.


I did not say that I thought the idea had a shot in hell of being implemented- I was just pointing out that the ideas are OUT there... it is not paranoia to point out something that actually exists...




"Pool-Boy"

They won more than last year....
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