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The W - Baseball - Mike Mussina retires
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It's False
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Since: 20.6.02
From: I am the Tag Team Champions!

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.30
After 18 seasons, Mussina calls it quits.

ESPN - New York Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina decides to retire


    As expected, New York Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina has decided to retire, according to a baseball source with knowledge of the situation. Mussina informed the Yankees last week he would give them a decision by the end of this week.

    Mussina, who turns 40 next month, spent the last eight seasons with the Yankees after pitching for the Baltimore Orioles for the first 10 years of his career. His 270 wins rank second among all active right-handers, behind only Greg Maddux. In the final start of his career, he pitched six shutout innings against the Boston Red Sox to finish off the first 20-win season of his career.


With no championships, one 20-win season, and 30 wins shy of the big "300" plateau, it'll be hard to make a HOF argument for Mussina. He might make it eventually, but it'll be a long while.

Hard to believe Mussina was one of the first lucrative Yankee free agent signings (that yielded a grand total of zero championships) of the decade. Seems like so long ago.




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MisterHenderson
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Since: 3.5.06
From: New York

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.93
Loved Moose. Loved having him on the team. NOT a Hall of Famer.



I had just bent down to tighten my nuts, and there was a double yellow line, see? And next thing I knew, there was policeman behind me. He put a sticker on my helmet and tried to clamp me.
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

He has more wins than:
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Whitey Ford
Catfish Hunter
Bob Lemon
Juan Marichal
Jim Palmer
Hoyt Wilhelm


spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

    He has more wins than:
    Sandy Koufax
    Bob Gibson
    Dizzy Dean
    Don Drysdale
    Bob Feller
    Whitey Ford
    Catfish Hunter
    Bob Lemon
    Juan Marichal
    Jim Palmer
    Hoyt Wilhelm




ERA+ for those guys
Sandy Koufax - 131
Bob Gibson - 127
Dizzy Dean - 130
Don Drysdale - 121
Bob Feller - 122
Whitey Ford - 133
Catfish Hunter - 104
Bob Lemon - 119
Juan Marichal - 123
Jim Palmer - 126
Hoyt Wilhelm - 146 (and 221 saves)

Mike Mussina - 123

I honestly did not know how this would turn out when I started looking for the numbers.

I think I would probably vote for him.



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Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.02
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

    He has more wins than:
    Sandy Koufax
    Bob Gibson
    Dizzy Dean
    Don Drysdale
    Bob Feller
    Whitey Ford
    Catfish Hunter
    Bob Lemon
    Juan Marichal
    Jim Palmer
    Hoyt Wilhelm





Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina? I think just about everyone on that list would have been in that conversation at some point. Gibson and Koufax, if not others, clearly were the answer to that question during part of their career. (An exception for Wilhelm, who wouldn't probably have come up in that conversation, but almost certainly was the best reliever of his time.)
Mr. Boffo
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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 485 days
Last activity: 446 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.62
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

    He has more wins than:
    Sandy Koufax
    Bob Gibson
    Dizzy Dean
    Don Drysdale
    Bob Feller
    Whitey Ford
    Catfish Hunter
    Bob Lemon
    Juan Marichal
    Jim Palmer
    Hoyt Wilhelm




If wins are your criteria, then he can't get in until Bert Blyleven does.

Mussina just doens't stand out compared to his contemporaries (no Cy Youngs, 4 All-Star games).
Not just Clemens (7 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, and 10 All-Star games) (who might not get in because of the steroid issue),
but Randy Johnson (5 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars),
Greg Maddux (4 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars),
Pedro Martinez (3 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars),
Schilling (no Cy Youngs, 6 All-Stars),
Glavine (2 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), and
Smoltz (1 Cy Young, 8 All-Stars).

Do all these guys deserve to get into the Hall? Mussina has the 2nd-worst ERA+ of that group, behind only the 118 of Glavine.
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.59
No vote for Mussina until Jack Morris gets in.




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Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
Mussina is probably better than Morris, but neither are HOF-worthy in my book. Granted, I'm more of a small-Hall kind of guy, but still, I don't think Moose ever got further than the Very Good threshold and into the Great threshold.
djp
Morcilla








Since: 16.2.07
From: 3rd Floor, NW window

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.58
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

      He has more wins than:
      Sandy Koufax
      Bob Gibson
      Dizzy Dean
      Don Drysdale
      Bob Feller
      Whitey Ford
      Catfish Hunter
      Bob Lemon
      Juan Marichal
      Jim Palmer
      Hoyt Wilhelm





    Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina? I think just about everyone on that list would have been in that conversation at some point. Gibson and Koufax, if not others, clearly were the answer to that question during part of their career. (An exception for Wilhelm, who wouldn't probably have come up in that conversation, but almost certainly was the best reliever of his time.)


Unfortunately, longevity will often take the place of greatness. You can be great for a short period and get in to the Hall or you can be 'pretty good' for a long period and still get in, without ever being the best at any given point of time. Which discounts the HOF for only letting in 'the best'. When Craig Biggio retired, most analysts said that he is a shoe-in for the HOF, but was he ever the best player on his team, let alone in the league? Maybe on his team a few times, but his popularity and longevity far outweigh his greatness. Same with Moose.
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.40
Biggio caught over 400 games in his first four seasons, and then was a SB / HR threat for the next 10 years. He was always one of the top guys at his position. Second Base just isn't a sexy position.




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Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 161 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.23


    When Craig Biggio retired, most analysts said that he is a shoe-in for the HOF, but was he ever the best player on his team, let alone in the league?


Wouldn't an argument like keep out most of the Big Red Machine, among others?

If Morgan is the best player on those teams, what about Bench, Rose and the rest?

And there's always Lou Gehrig, not the best player on his team, arguably.



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Since: 9.2.02

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.03
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
    Was there any point where, if you were discussing the topic "who is the best pitcher in baseball right now?" you would have even mentioned Mussina?
I've always asked this question in any HOF discussion. There was a time where Moose was a premiere pitcher, and while I came to enjoy him as a Yankees fan, I may think of him as "a VERY good pitcher" rather than "an all-time great".
    Originally posted by Mr. Boffo
    Not just Clemens (7 Cy Youngs, 1 MVP, and 10 All-Star games) (who might not get in because of the steroid issue),
    but Randy Johnson (5 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars),
    Greg Maddux (4 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars),
    Pedro Martinez (3 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Stars),
    Schilling (no Cy Youngs, 6 All-Stars),
    Glavine (2 Cy Youngs, 10 All-Stars), and
    Smoltz (1 Cy Young, 8 All-Stars).

    Do all these guys deserve to get into the Hall? Mussina has the 2nd-worst ERA+ of that group, behind only the 118 of Glavine.
You know, you could make a realistic case for each of these guys getting into the HOF, as over the course of their careers, each was an elite pitcher....and not stating that just to make a case for Moose.
drjayphd
Scrapple
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Since: 22.4.02
From: Long Island

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.54
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"Two men enter. One man leaves...with groceries." (SchippeWreck)


    Originally posted by It's False
    With no championships, one 20-win season, and 30 wins shy of the big "300" plateau, it'll be hard to make a HOF argument for Mussina. He might make it eventually, but it'll be a long while.


The conventional wisdom seems to be that no one's gonna hit 300 again any time soon, so that plateau's out of reach for anyone. Although I wouldn't put it past baseball writers to hold someone to an absurdly high standard. The fact that he compares well with other Hall of Famers means I say yes, but he'll have to wait it out.



thecubsfan
Scrapple
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

    Second Base just isn't a sexy position.


(female?) fans of the Phillies would disagree with you.


    The conventional wisdom seems to be that no one's gonna hit 300 again any time soon


Randy Johnson: 295 wins. Never trust conventional wisdom!



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MisterHenderson
Boerewors








Since: 3.5.06
From: New York

Since last post: 1864 days
Last activity: 1783 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.93
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    270 wins ISNT a HOF Career?

    He has more wins than:
    Sandy Koufax
    Bob Gibson
    Dizzy Dean
    Don Drysdale
    Bob Feller
    Whitey Ford
    Catfish Hunter
    Bob Lemon
    Juan Marichal
    Jim Palmer
    Hoyt Wilhelm





All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season.



I had just bent down to tighten my nuts, and there was a double yellow line, see? And next thing I knew, there was policeman behind me. He put a sticker on my helmet and tried to clamp me.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 17 hours
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
    Originally posted by MisterHenderson


    All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season.

From the Baseball Writer's Association Hall of Fame Rules Page:
#5 Voting Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
http://www.baseballwriters.org/HOF_rules.html

Never once does it say that dominating the game was a prerequisite. THE PLAYER'S RECORD is the first thing mentioned. His RECORD shows he won more than a good number of people IN the HOF.

As far as post season, nearly half the players in the HOF never made it there.
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.47
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
      Originally posted by MisterHenderson


      All of these pitches dominated the game for most or all of their careers. Mussina wasn't even the best pitcher on his team a lot of times. He was very good, but not Hall of Fame, good. He never dominated and he was mediocre in the post season.

    From the Baseball Writer's Association Hall of Fame Rules Page:
    #5 Voting Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
    http://www.baseballwriters.org/HOF_rules.html

    Never once does it say that dominating the game was a prerequisite. THE PLAYER'S RECORD is the first thing mentioned. His RECORD shows he won more than a good number of people IN the HOF.

    As far as post season, nearly half the players in the HOF never made it there.



And how these selections are made is nebulous at best. Rules or no rules.

I agree with an earlier post. he shouldn't get in before Bert Blyleven.



Perception is reality
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.48
He shouldn't get in before Blylevin, who shouldn't get in before Morris.
TwisterF5
Italian








Since: 18.2.04
From: The Houston 'burbs

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.12
I was thinking that Moose had at least 2 more good years left in him. Money was obviously not a factor in a possible return and kudos to him for wanting to spend a lot of time with his kids.

Thanks for the good years, Moose.



I'm square (6'7 X 6'7).
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    He shouldn't get in before Blylevin, who shouldn't get in before Morris.


This argument doesn't make much sense to me. Blyleven was better than Morris in pretty much every conceivable statistical category. Game Seven of the 1991 Series was just one game (albeit a great one).
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