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23.9.14 0130
The W - Baseball - Mike Greenwell wants his MVP award!
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StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.99
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050217/sp_nm/mlb_steroids_dc_1



    The man who finished second to Jose Canseco in voting for the 1988 American League most valuable player award says he should have the award now that Canseco is talking publicly about his steroid use.

    "Where's my MVP?" former Boston Red Sox (news) outfielder Mike Greenwell told the Fort Myers, Florida, News-Press. "(Canseco's) an admitted steroid user. I was clean."
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Since: 11.12.01
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.67

I always loved Mike Greenwell. He always looked like he was enjoying himself and giving 100% all the time. I hope he gets the award, though I know he won't.



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spf
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Since: 2.1.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.47
If Greenwell gets his award can we then please give Frank Thomas the MVP award from 2000 that he deserved over Jason Giambi?



Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
Well since we're giving out deserved MVP awards then Piazza needs his for the year Caminiti won.


And let's not forget Canseco's Rookie of the Year, why isn't Wally Joyner demanding his Rookie of the Year trophy.

(edited by Quezzy on 18.2.05 0800)


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Von Maestro
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Since: 6.1.04
From: New York

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.82
While we're taking away awards, let's just take away the A's 1989 World Series win & give it to the Giants...?

Bottom line about all of this, is that while many of the records & accomplishments of the steroid era will forever be questioned & tainted, they were simply not illegal at the time & will therefore not be revoked.
JohnPi
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Highland, Michigan

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.46

    they were simply not illegal at the time & will therefore not be revoked.


This might just be semantics, but isn't something that is illegal according to federal law, also outlawed in a sport that is conducted within the borders of the USA? How can Baseball make a federally illegal substance OK to use?

But, I think that you're right in the fact that these stats, records and awards will never be revoked (or get asterixed) because other than an outright admission by the player, you can't prove that these players did what people are accusing them of.
Brian P. Dermody
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Since: 20.9.02
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.01
And I hate to sound like a (ugh) moderate liberal, but we're talking about a slippery slope here. If a precedent is set in baseball, who's to say that any sport would be immune to adjusting their records?

People, the Iron Sheik could still be champion.

Edit: Post 666 -- EVIL!

(edited by DJ Ran on 22.2.05 0021)


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JoshMann
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Since: 17.11.03
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.62
    Originally posted by DJ Ran
    And I hate to sound like a (ugh) moderate liberal, but we're talking about a slippery slope here


Much to my chagrin, that's a phrase that knows no specific political ideology. A purple phrase, if you will. Which annoys me because it's a term I never liked to begin with.

ON-TOPIC: If you REALLY want to make this fun, try to figure out based on this whole train of thought just who the 1998 NL MVP should have been.



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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by DJ Ran
    And I hate to sound like a (ugh) moderate liberal, but we're talking about a slippery slope here. If a precedent is set in baseball, who's to say that any sport would be immune to adjusting their records?

    People, the Iron Sheik could still be champion.


The Olympics take away awards all the time, why not baseball?




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JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.73
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    The Olympics take away awards all the time, why not baseball?


Medals are revoked and competitors are disqualified for breaking Olympic rules. Jose Canseco did not break any baseball rules, as there was no regulation of steroids in 1988. I'd think if they wanted to make this a possibility, they would have to write rules to the effect of "we will strip you of any individual records and your team of any achievements made during your tenure", like they took away Michigan's Final Four appearances of the Fab Five era. They can't go back and make new rules retroactive, though.



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
I think some common sense needs to be applied to the argument that if something isn't illegal in baseball, it shouldn't matter if it is illegal by law.

I'm pretty sure that there isn't a baseball rule that would stop someone from pulling out a gun and killing the first baseman. This might be somewhere in section 7, but I can't find it. Still, assuming there isn't a specific provision about killing an opposing player - I don't think anyone would argue that it was OK.

Then again, hockey players assualt each other and generally no charges are brought, so maybe this is a bad example.





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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.86
    Originally posted by JohnPi

      they were simply not illegal at the time & will therefore not be revoked.


    This might just be semantics, but isn't something that is illegal according to federal law, also outlawed in a sport that is conducted within the borders of the USA? How can Baseball make a federally illegal substance OK to use?

    But, I think that you're right in the fact that these stats, records and awards will never be revoked (or get asterixed) because other than an outright admission by the player, you can't prove that these players did what people are accusing them of.


They weren't made illegal by the federal government until the passage of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988, signed into law on 11/15/88 and effective 3/6/89. So, technically, what Jose was doing that year, was no more wrong then using Creatine.



redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.24
Just when it seemed Greenwell and his act had gone away, he has to come back to bitch about the '88 MVP Award. Greenwell also has claimed in the past that Dan Duquette ran him out of Boston, and yet, he was unable to hook up with another team after he left Boston. Perhaps this was because Greenwell's opinion of himself was far superior than the opinion of anyone else. And of course, who can forget his crying like a little girl to the Boston media in early '92 because some fans boo'ed him. The guy was a butcher in the outfield and is a key reason why Ellis Burks won't be going to the Hall of Fame due to the injuries Burks suffered during Greenwell's misadventures in the outfield. The guy should have worn a cowbell to warn the center fielders he would maim a few times a year.
And of course, how can any Red Sox fan forget the wonderful spring of '96 when the triumverate of Canseco, Greenwell and Kevin Mitchell would take turns patrolling the corner outfield spots for the Red Sox. Funny, that was the year the Sox started 3-16. Probably the worst defense ever played in MLB history by a non-expansion team.
JoshMann
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Since: 17.11.03
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.62
(deleted by CRZ on 18.2.05 1559)
NickBockwinkelFan
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Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30

AVG OBA SLU AB HIT DB TP HR RUN RBI BB SB OPS

CANSECO OAK 307 391 569 610 187 34 0 42 120 124 78 40 959

GREENWELL BOS 325 416 531 590 192 39 8 22 86 119 87 16 946

PUCKETT MIN 356 375 545 657 234 42 5 24 109 121 23 6 920

Kirby Puckett had a way better season than Greenwell that year.

Twins (91-71) won more games than the Red Sox (89-73) that year (though the Sox did win the East).

Puckett won the Gold Glove.

But of course, playing in Minneapolis as opposed to Boston gives the player way less exposure.

edit: sorry, but I can seem to format this properly

(edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 18.2.05 2050)

(edited by Guru Zim on 18.2.05 1759)

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--Life Lessons from "The Tao of Bobby the Brain Heenan" Uncensored 2000 preview


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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.24
    Originally posted by NickBockwinkelFan

    AVG OBA SLU AB HIT DB TP HR RUN RBI BB SB OPS

    CANSECO OAK 307 391 569 610 187 34 0 42 120 124 78 40 959

    GREENWELL BOS 325 416 531 590 192 39 8 22 86 119 87 16 946

    PUCKETT MIN 356 375 545 657 234 42 5 24 109 121 23 6 920

    Kirby Puckett had a way better season than Greenwell that year.

    Twins (91-71) won more games than the Red Sox (89-73) that year (though the Sox did win the East).

    Puckett won the Gold Glove.

    But of course, playing in Minneapolis as opposed to Boston gives the player way less exposure.

    edit: sorry, but I can seem to format this properly

    (edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 18.2.05 2050)

    (edited by Guru Zim on 18.2.05 1759)







The Twins did finish 13 back in the pre-Wild Card days the year after winning a World Series, so the season actually appears disappointing from a team perspective in that case.
As for Boston, or New York for that matter, being a bias in determining A.L. MVP's: The last A.L. MVP that was NOT from the A.L. West was in 1995, so East Coast Bias doesn't work well with that award. Also, if the numbers crunched in the mid 00's were in vogue in '88, Boggs would have been the Red Sox candidate over Greenwell. And, '88 was pre-ESPN MLB package, so the only national game was the Game of the Week on NBC, and the defending World Champions probably had more appearances than the Red Sox in the package that season.

(edited by redsoxnation on 18.2.05 2129)
NickBockwinkelFan
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Since: 10.4.02
From: New York City, NY

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30
    Originally posted by redsoxnation

    The Twins did finish 13 back in the pre-Wild Card days the year after winning a World Series, so the season actually appears disappointing from a team perspective in that case.


Oakland went 104-58 en route to a huge win in the divison and a 4-0 sweep of the Red Sox in the ALCS (where Boggs was the only guy who showed up). This was the era of the balanced schedule and everybody in the AL played either 12 or 13 games versus league opponents, so there was really no schedule advantage for AL East vs AL West. The Twins got off to an awful start that year, finally reaching .500 on May 27th. To end up 20 over after being 7 under in April is pretty impressive on its own merit. The Twins just got in a big hole to early and with Oakland finishing up 46 game over .500, there was no way they could make up the ground. Coming off a World Series Championship season, anything less would definitely be a disappointment. The Twins fought hard as the 27 game swing proves.

    Originally posted by redsoxnation

    As for Boston, or New York for that matter, being a bias in determining A.L. MVP's: The last A.L. MVP that was NOT from the A.L. West was in 1995, so East Coast Bias doesn't work well with that award. Also, if the numbers crunched in the mid 00's were in vogue in '88, Boggs would have been the Red Sox candidate over Greenwell. And, '88 was pre-ESPN MLB package, so the only national game was the Game of the Week on NBC, and the defending World Champions probably had more appearances than the Red Sox in the package that season.




I don't subscribe to the "East Coast Bias" theory at all, but Boston has a much higher news profile than Minneapolis. Your comment about the tv package illustrates how different things were then. Growing up in Chicago we had both AL & NL games on tv, so we got to see everybody (same as LA, the Bay Area and New York). The NBC game was the only way most people got to see the other league ever. The ESPN factor is almost hard to comprehend. The ability to see all these games and all these teams on a daily basis changes the way we follow sports. The total oversaturation of the current market makes it hard to even remember that 15 years ago you might get to see the best player in the NL once or twice a year (barring playoffs) if you lived in a AL city. Who remembers waiting all week to watch the George Michael Sports Machine or This Week In Baseball?

Jesus, when I was growing up the NBA Finals were on TAPE DELAY!

Thinking back, I remember that the NBC package games were usually from the west coast to accomodate their golf coverage and the baseball started later like around 4 EST. I also remember them showing mostly NL, especially the Dodgers, Cardinals, Mets, Cubs and Giants.


(edited by NickBockwinkelFan on 19.2.05 0304)

"Well, you can't involve friendship with business. It has to be one or the other. It's either business or friendship, or hit the bricks!"
--Life Lessons from "The Tao of Bobby the Brain Heenan" Uncensored 2000 preview


"As long as the check don't bounce, I guess he's okay with it!"
--Former All Pro Giants LB Harry Carson on Bill Parcells joining the hated rival Dallas Cowboys

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LOL, he mentioned that too. He also said he'd try and delay reading all the results of the pro-am until Monday when you'd be able to hear them. You must be some customer!
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