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The W - Current Events & Politics - Middle East (Page 3)
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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#41 Posted on
Also, from what I've read, during the break-up of the Ottoman empire, there were several areas where the land owners were primarily Jewish.

From what I can tell, the original plan was to take the areas that had been bought up by the Jewish people and turn them into a self governing area. I'd quote sources here but I read this at work and I'm at home now.

That's not exactly stealing the land. It was more like how the US recognized that the American Indians had sovereign nation status on their reservations.

I think that most of us are really under-educated on this issue. I've been surprised at what I've found out.

I think everyone on both sides of this argument would be better served by researching this more.



I love it when a plan comes together
aureole
Haggis








Since: 3.1.02
From: Cambs, UK

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#42 Posted on
FWIW, when Osama Bin Laden was talking about "more than 80 years of humiliation and disgrace." He was referring to the Balfour Declaration. The American and English ties to the situation in the Middle East are fairly strong and quite recent.

I also think that there are huge problems with trying to talk about exactly whose land is whose, historically speaking. Zimbabwe is getting into a state trying to do exactly that right now with the "indigisation" program.



Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Qubber
Boerewors








Since: 7.1.02
From: Sheffield, UK

Since last post: 2816 days
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#43 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00

    Originally posted by DMC
    They are not the ones going around blowing up innocent people in shopping malls.

    DMC



That the Israelis are doing some nasty stuff can't be debated. The BBC has some stories about human rights abuses, about the destruction of public facilities, and about the Israelis blocking aid packages. It's quite shocking to see some of it, and the media blackout in place now probably results in less information getting out. The sight of reporters being fired upon by tanks on the news really shocked me. I admit I don't know all the facts about the region, but the fact that the Israelis are retaliating against the civilian population is no more right than Bloody Sunday was, I just don't get why the outcry isn't more in line with the response that Bloody Sunday received.

Like the IRA, the Palestinian Suicide Bombers are a minority of the population, and retaliation against the majority is surely, well, just not right.





"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."

Lance Storm, 21st January 2002.
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 264 days
Last activity: 65 days
#44 Posted on
Shit, I've read and researched a lot about Israel and everything going on with them in the Middle East, so I'm going to lay down a few quick facts about the history surrounding the land that Israel occupies, and then of course some history of Ariel Sharon and his policies 20 years ago as witnessed by my mother.

Note: I'm working off just what I remember and I'll try to go look up the dates and offending countries involved in a bit.

After WWII the state of Israel formed. The surrounding Arab countries were pretty pissed that another nation had sprung up in their midst so they decided to do something about it. I believe the first time it was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and maybe Lebannon? Anyway these countries decided to get rid of the Israelies and take back their territory. They assembeled their armies, and marched towards Israel. On the way the passed through the territory surrounding Israel which was inhabitated mostly by Palestinians. Now the Palestinians had nothing to do with this war. They were just asked to move out, so they wouldn't be in the way of the fighting. They were told that after Israel was destroyed they could move back home.

Now here's the funny part. Israel didn't lose. They won. They kicked ass, and did it so well that they kicked the Arab armies back to their countries and occupied the land surrounding Israel which had belonged to those countries. Of course, now the Palestinians had just been screwed. They had no home, and it wasn't even their fault. The surrounding Arab countries wouldn't let them in (in the 1980's they were still living in refugee camps in Jordan, I don't know about today though) and so the Palestinian's were fucked. What didn't help was the fact that various alliances of Arab countries tried to take back that land from Israel three more times in the past 50 years, and every time lost (another reason for Arabs to dislike America, because Israel was/is using American military hardware), and lost more land because of it.

Over the years there have been several diplomatic dealings, that gave some of the land back to various Arab countries and gave Palestinians their own territory to live in. But over the years Israeli settlers have moved into the Palestinian territory (illegaly!) and then because of Palestinian terrorism, the military had to move in and safeguard those settlers, thus making the Palestinian territory occupied by Israeli miltiary.

Now, as for Ariel Sharon... he is a bad, bad man. When he was in power in the 70's/80's he made many a bad policy that worked against Arabs and Palestinians. One of the ones my mother saw in action went like this: For every terrorist act against Israel (from rock throwing to suicide bombing), the house of the perpertrator's family was to be bulldozed. It didn't matter if the family didn't condone the actions of the one individual. It didn't matter if they didn't live with their family anymore, the house was destroyed, and the land was taken by the state of Israel.

Now these were Sharon's policies 20 years ago, and after he finally fell out of power, most of them were dropped. Yet, what was it, just a little over a year ago when the Israelies voted him their president? Bleh.

-History provided by Jaguar. Feel free to correct me where you think I'm wrong, and I'll return the favor.

IMO, if Sharon and Arafat would just kill each other, we may all be a bit better off.
The Thrill
Banger








Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

Since last post: 255 days
Last activity: 101 days
#45 Posted on

To turn away from the whole Israeli-Palestinian blowup for a minute...is anybody else bent like me at the revelations that we pretty much had Osama bin Laden in our grasp, only to f*ck it up?

ABCNews.com has picked up a Washington Post article, repeating Defense Dept. spokesman who said in December that they were sure bin Laden was holed up in the Tora Bora caves before we attacked.

Of course, you'll recall that US bombers did the dirty deed from the air...but what did we do when it was time to send in the ground-pounders? Well, instead of fielding American combat units, the US command back in Washington (there was nobody ranking higher than LTC, or lieutenant Colonel, on-scene at the time) decided we'd just pay the local Afghans to do that work.

Well, to the surprise of no one but the think-tankers, many of those so-called Northern Alliance-affiliated (or at least anti-Taliban) Afghans TURNED HEEL! Not only didn't they clean out the caves of any al-Qaeda, but they helped hundreds, and probably even bin Laden, across the Pakistani border, which we hardly defended after all!

Way to drop the ball, Pentagon. Considering your offices themselves were one of the targets on 9-11, you couldn't muster the sack to go get the sorry piece of sh*t that orchestrated it all? Head down to Ground Zero in NYC and explain your bumblings to one of NYPD or FDNY's finest, whose buddies are still in there. Go justify yourselves to the surviving relatives of the heroes of United Airlines Flight 93.

Suuuuuuurrrreee, the "war on terror" isn't all about one man. Bullsh*t.

Get him. Find Osama bin Laden. Get him NOW.

God Bless America!



Star wipe, and...we're out.
Thrillin' ain't easy.

.
.
THE THRILL
ACW-TV...er, Home Video Technical Director...and Circle Too 4 Life!
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 264 days
Last activity: 65 days
#46 Posted on
Fuck. Who cares? Killing Osama won't stop people from hating America. And if they did kill him, then the Bush Administration will be shorthanded when it comes to terrorist boogeymen to scare the public with. Then it'd just be too hard to justify the office of Homeland Security. And who the hell cares about Osama anyway? As far as America is concerned Afghanistan has been bombed into submission and anybody left alive there can sort it all out. Even if everybody in Afghanistan turned Anti-American the US wouldn't care right now because Bush has got his eye on Iraq and Saddam's oil. Of course Palestine is fucking that up by getting killed by all those US supplied Israeli driven tanks, so Powell gets a couple weeks to try and sort that out before we go kill us some Iraqis.

-Jaguar

America sucks. Why? Because we're the largest military power in the world, and too often we use it without restraint. Not to say that everybody else in the world doesn't suck too, because they do. Killing is fucking wrong, and everybody who doesn't believe that needs to figure out what the purpose of their existence is, and go do it somewhere else.



"You gotta hate somebody before this is over. Them, me, it doesn't matter."

"Hate, who do I hate? You tell me."

"Who do you love?"

-Wintermute to Case in William Gibson's Neuromancer
Qubber
Boerewors








Since: 7.1.02
From: Sheffield, UK

Since last post: 2816 days
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#47 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
Thrill: has this come up because of the recent video splashed all over the news? If it is the consider that there is no concrete evidence of when that video was filmed, as in it Bin Laden (or rather the guy next to him) only discusses events directly after September the 11th rather than more recent events, it does not prove that Bin Laden is alive now, just that he was alive immediately after September 11th. What I mean to say is that if they were talking about something that happened last week, then you could assume that he has escaped the bombing campaigns and is still alive. As it is that video doesn't prove a thing.

You're right about the rest of it, I just don't know that Bin Laden isn't dead already.

Apologies if that wasn't what you meant and something else has happened while I was asleep .



"Nobody enjoys a good time more than I do, but this business of yours is as legitimate as a three-legged donkey...which of course is illegitimate because as we all know donkeys have four legs."

Lance Storm, 21st January 2002.
The Thrill
Banger








Since: 16.4.02
From: Green Bay, WI

Since last post: 255 days
Last activity: 101 days
#48 Posted on

Qubber: ya might have been snoozin'. :-)

No, my rant wasn't sparked by the latest al-Jazeera compilation "Now That's What I Call bin Laden 9." Experts are confident that tape was made after Sept. 11, but before the main US operations in Afghanistan began, partly because, as you said, bin Laden does a postgame analysis of the 9-11 attacks...but he hadn't turned all gaunt and sleepless-like, as he did in the earlier video filmed sometime in December.

No, the anger comes from reports a day or so ago, confirming what Pentagon spokespeople said at the time: during the Battle of Tora Bora, bin Laden WAS in those caves. But instead of sending in US troops to capture him and other al-Qaeda fighters, we paid the Northern Alliance and other local anti-Taliban Afghans in the area to do the dirty work for us. Many of them took the American money, then turned around and helped sneak bin Laden and many of his men outta there.

True, it's possible bin Laden is dead, but from reports I've read, many in the intelligence community doubt that. Of course, reliable intelligence on Osama is hard to come by these days.

Oh, and to those who think finding and punishing the bad guys ain't important: it's called justice. Nobody, including me, said anything about assassinating Osama. It's called prison...punishment for a crime against 3,000 innocents, give or take 19 bastards. (I'm sure Osama's future cellmates in the federal pen would just looooooove to get to know him better.)

Military power used without restraint!? Go read Powell's autobiography, My American Journey. That's what he's always been about, and those policies hold true today. (And as for going after Saddam just to get ahold of oil: does paying off the families of Palestinian suicide bombers and trying to develop nuclear weapons not qualify as terrorism in some people's world?)

I reiterate: go down to Ground Zero and tell somebody from FDNY or the NYPD, or a widow of someone who just went to work that September morning at the Pentagon, the WTC, or hopped on United Flight 93...that America is the problem, and we shouldn't go after war criminals...it might hurt somebody's feelings.

See what kind of response you get.





Star wipe, and...we're out.
Thrillin' ain't easy.

.
.
THE THRILL
ACW-TV...er, Home Video Technical Director...and Circle Too 4 Life!
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An interesting tidbit... Brooks Firestone - who owns the winery and beer company, and is somehow connected to the tire company, AND whose son Andrew was, in fact, "The Bachelor" - was elected as my county Board of Supervisor on Tuesday.
- Leroy, Brooks Firestone Elected (2004)
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