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The W - Current Events & Politics - Middle East (Page 2)
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Sean
Cotechino








Since: 26.3.02
From: Mastic, NY

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#21 Posted on
The practicality argument is asinine and it falls on its face after 30 seconds of mild contemplation.

If we, as humans, always did what was practical, the world would be a very ugly place. It's practical to sterilize welfare mothers. It's practical to euthanize the elderly. Hell, it's practical to abort the physically and mentally handicapped.

But there are reasons we don't do these things. It is perfectly OK to judge the practical separately from the moral, but we do not operate on the practical level all the time. Some would argue that we do, but if that were the case, the above actions would already occur with regularity.



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PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#22 Posted on

    Originally posted by Travis
    MARVEL at his amazing wit! SHOCK at his razor sharp barbs! WITNESS the awe-inspiring display of pomposity!



Well, all right. Let me rephrase my argument, then. When I say "practicality," assume I mean "peace and justice for all." While that may be a moral judgment, I think we can all agree that it's in our best interest.

All right, so the creation of Israel led to a lot of war and death. But, you know, these people needed some place to go and be Jewish and not have non-Jews telling them they should be dead. Whatever the motives behind the creation of Israel, I still stand behind it as a good way to give a very, veeery oppressed people a safe haven.



Do I lie to myself to be happy? In your case, Teddy, I think I can.
Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#23 Posted on
Originally posted by Travis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARVEL at his amazing wit! SHOCK at his razor sharp barbs! WITNESS the awe-inspiring display of pomposity!


I don't recall saying any of that. Maybe your keyboard's too small for your fingers and you hit the wrong keys.

PalaptineQuake sez: All right, so the creation of Israel led to a lot of war and death. But, you know, these people needed some place to go and be Jewish and not have non-Jews telling them they should be dead. Whatever the motives behind the creation of Israel, I still stand behind it as a good way to give a very, veeery oppressed people a safe haven.

That's some safe haven. Wasn't all that "practical" dumping a shitload of Jews into a fervently anti-Jewish area by way of swiping land, was it?

I prodcued plenty of evidence that the Israelis are oppresing the arabs (ya know, those wacky guys they took the land from in the first place). And you gleefully no-sold it in your defense of "practical" Israel. Leading me to one conclusion...

Obviously you, for some odd reason, hate Arabs. Gotcha, thanks for playing. It's been a practical blast.





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210
Blutwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
The popus one wrote:
You seem to be implying that the Palestinians are hell-bent on killing all Jews, rather than simply having their own land and/or the same rights that Jewish citizens enjoy (I'm not sure if that includes the ridiculous benefits). By making such a broad and obviously biased statement, you just ended my interest of discussing this matter with you. You obviously believe everything you hear on the American news. Sorry 'bout your luck sport.

First off, you should really READ what you write because I dont know if you have any kind of idea how much of an ass you sound like/are.

Second, do you really think the Palestines would STOP killing Isreali civilians if they got the land? (Not *they're* land, mind you, just LAND)




MINNESOTA IS SO HOTT
Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#25 Posted on

    Originally posted by 210
    The popus one wrote:
    You seem to be implying that the Palestinians are hell-bent on killing all Jews, rather than simply having their own land and/or the same rights that Jewish citizens enjoy (I'm not sure if that includes the ridiculous benefits). By making such a broad and obviously biased statement, you just ended my interest of discussing this matter with you. You obviously believe everything you hear on the American news. Sorry 'bout your luck sport.

    First off, you should really READ what you write because I dont know if you have any kind of idea how much of an ass you sound like/are.

    Second, do you really think the Palestines would STOP killing Isreali civilians if they got the land? (Not *they're* land, mind you, just LAND)



Grammar 3:16.
I DO need to stop being so popus.
My point was that the land never belonged to Israel in the first place. I'm sure ISRAEL wouldn't co-exist peacefully with a Palestinian state. See also: Lebanon.



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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#26 Posted on
"My point was that the land never belonged to Israel in the first place. I'm sure ISRAEL wouldn't co-exist peacefully with a Palestinian state. See also: Lebanon."

I'm still waiting to see how Israel does not have a legitimate claim to the land. I am also waiting to see just where a Palestinian state has been at any point in history. Palestinans are simply Arabs who were living in the land when the Jewish state was created. Just because their religion teaches them to hate Jews is not Israel's fault.

DMC



It's me, it's me- It's D-M-C.
Sean
Cotechino








Since: 26.3.02
From: Mastic, NY

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#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by DMC
    "My point was that the land never belonged to Israel in the first place. I'm sure ISRAEL wouldn't co-exist peacefully with a Palestinian state. See also: Lebanon."

    I'm still waiting to see how Israel does not have a legitimate claim to the land. I am also waiting to see just where a Palestinian state has been at any point in history. Palestinans are simply Arabs who were living in the land when the Jewish state was created. Just because their religion teaches them to hate Jews is not Israel's fault.

    DMC



This paragraph is so intellectually upsetting, I don't even know where to begin.

When Israel was created, chunks of land were removed from their rightful owners by the United Nations, acting under the influence of the United States. Did the United Nations/States have any claim to said land? No. This land was then awarded to Israel as a homeland. Why? To compensate for the fact that the world did nothing while the Holocaust was happening - NOT because Jews needed a homeland, and NOT because they had any rightful claim to the land.

The fact that there was never an officially recognized Palestinian state is irrelevant. As of right now, the United States is one of the few nations in the world that accepts Taiwan as a sovereign nation - does this mean the people of Taiwan deserve no identity?

You are correct when you say that Palestinians lived in "Israel" when the land was awarded....so whose right was it to take the land from the people who lived there and award it to someone else?

I must also point out that your little bit about their religion teaching them to hate Jews is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever read in my life. If someone was driving tanks through my streets I'd hate them as well. It has nothing to do with religion.



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DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

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#28 Posted on
Sean, I guess we just disagree on who the "rightful owners" of the land are. Again, all I ask is if there was no Palestinian state, then were the Arabs there the rightful owners of the land? Surely the major nations who controlled it and gave it away after WWII were not the rightful owners, right? So who comes closest to having a legitimate claim to that land? As far as I can tell Israel does, and they *did* need a homeland in order to have a safe haven from centuries of oppression in various countries around the world. Nazi Germany was not the first, it was simply the most horriffic. So if there was no Palestinian state PERIOD in the land (as far as I know it was *not* as you are implying, that there was some type of organized government present that was simply not being recognized, like Taiwan) why NOT offer it to Israel? Did the Jews immediately go around being hostile to Arabs in the land in 1948 and waring against them left and right? Or was it the other way around?

DMC



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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#29 Posted on
Here. Read this.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

Let's move from there. The land wasn't stolen at the end of WWII, it wasn't the US that did it, etc. Let's get some actual FACTS involved in the discussion, ok?



I love it when a plan comes together
Travis
Boerewors








Since: 7.3.02
From: Baltimore, MD

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#30 Posted on

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Here. Read this.

    http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

    Let's move from there. The land wasn't stolen at the end of WWII, it wasn't the US that did it, etc. Let's get some actual FACTS involved in the discussion, ok?



The land was given by the UN and the British to the Israelis, and the UN and the British did nothing to stop the Israelis from taking Palestine by force. Nor did the US.

I do have to apologize for a fuzzy memory when it comes to history, but the facts remain that the land doesn't belong to Israel, if anything it should still be under Jordanian and Egyptian control.

Thanks for the facts GZ.



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CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#31 Posted on
Perusing this thread, I'd like to thank everyone (except one person) for managing to refrain from calling people names and pitching aside "using arguments" in favour of "carefully disguised trolling."

I'd also like to suggest that it's a lot easier to just drop a discussion with someone who's calling you names than it is to hope they suddenly start paying attention to your arguments. And when I say "drop a discussion," I don't mean "making one final post to let the entire world know you're 'dropping' it" because inevitably we end up in a last word battle that ends up looking even DUMBER than the steps right before somebody finally gives up.

But that's just me, and my own damn opinion.

(edited by CRZ on 4.4.02 1931)
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Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#32 Posted on
While I personally believe both sides are to blame for the esculating violence, its hard to justify any action that Israel has taken in recent weeks. And there is no hope in ending any of this until the longest military occupation in modern history ends.

It doesn't matter who owned the land previously (see: US versus Native Americans), there exists a very vocal population that wishes not be occupied by the Israeli military - isn't that enough?

If anything, the desire for Palistinians to have their own homeland directly parallels the creation of the state of Israel - which is, of course, the sad irony of the whole situation.



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eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

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#33 Posted on
Exactly. Regardless of any claim Israelites have to the land, they are there, and something has to be done. Simply saying they shouldn't be there solves nothing.



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aureole
Haggis








Since: 3.1.02
From: Cambs, UK

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#34 Posted on
There is some indications that Lawrence of Arabia gave promises of Arabian independance to the Palestinians in exchange for the help in WWI.

This is in regard to the Barak offer, which gives a pro-Palestinian view of the rejected offer. It has bias but is useful if you'd like an opposing view.




Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3440 days
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#35 Posted on
I think in the coming weeks and months, you will see that the biggest stumbling block to a peace plan will definately be Jerusalem. Israel will never give up control of a portion of the city, as far as I can tell, and Palestinians will not make any deal without it and without keeping some kind of control over the Temple Mount area. Beyond the historic Islamic site on the Mount, it is a major "in your face" that the Palestinians will never give up.

At this point I am all for Israel doing this: Telling all Arabs who want to stay in the country and be normal, democratic citizens that they may stay and enjoy full citizenship. Everyone else is given a free pass out of the country or is arrested if it is found that they are conspiring to committ terrorism or are giving haven to terrorists. If the U.S. can do this, why not Israel?

DMC



It's me, it's me- It's D-M-C.
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#36 Posted on
I'm not exactly sure what that solves - the Palestinians want to live and govern themselves, and simply becoming Israeli citizens does not really protect them from the Israeli military.

In addition, there is a serious conservative party in Israel that simply would not allow for that to happen. Until the political climate of the Israeli governement changes, peace is not accessible.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3440 days
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#37 Posted on
My point is that they would not have to worry about the Israeli military if they were not constantly calling for the destruction of Israel! That is what Arafat wants, pure and simple. It is the *Palestinian leadership* which needs to change, not the Israeli goverment. They are not the ones going around blowing up innocent people in shopping malls.

DMC



It's me, it's me- It's D-M-C.
eviljonhunt81
Pepperoni








Since: 6.1.02
From: not Japan

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#38 Posted on
Not exactly, but they are far from angels. The leadership of both sides is extremely bull headed, and until they realize that they're both acting like little kids, it's only gonna' get worse.



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Crimedog
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Since: 28.3.02
From: Ohio

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#39 Posted on

    Originally posted by Sean

    I must also point out that your little bit about their religion teaching them to hate Jews is some of the biggest bullshit I've ever read in my life. If someone was driving tanks through my streets I'd hate them as well. It has nothing to do with religion.


"It has nothing to do with religion." Bullshit. It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. Read a history book. You can trace damn near every major war in the history of the world to religious differences.

(Warning: the following paragraph does contain generalizations. Don't bother flaming me for it.)
Why do Palestinians strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves up in the middle of crowded areas? Because Muslims hate Jews. Why does Israel bitchslap Palestine repeatedly? Because Jews hate Muslims. They don't get along because of their religion. Never have, probably never will. It's amazing that the only major difference between Judaism and Islam is Muhammad. It's the same God. But because of a different interpretation, people die.

Now. Let me say this: I think both sides need to back off and try to end this peacefully. They're both wrong. But if I had to pick a side, it wouldn't be the side that sends suicide bombers to kill civilians and teaches said bombers they will be rewarded for being a martyr. The one thing Israel has going for them is that they have tried to conduct anti-Palestinian operations in a military fashion. There is an effort to try and focus on people who are actively planning to kill Jews, instead of simply walking into a cafe and blowing themselves and everybody else up.

And if you say suicide bombings are justified, think about this very, very carefully: What's the difference between a suicide bombing and flying an airliner into a building?

MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 29 days
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#40 Posted on
Not to be obnoxious, but it you'd read a history book you'd find out that the history of religious hate between Jews and Christians is about 100x worse thaen between Jews and Muslims. And Jews and Christians, for the most part, get along pretty good nowdays. In fact, Jews and Muslims got along fairly well (not great, but not on the level of the Inquisition) until about 80 years ago.

In addition, there is a significant minority of Christian Palestinians (about 10%), including several leaders such as Hanan Ashrawi, so it isn't just "Jews and Muslims hate each other." I'm not saying religion isn't a factor, but it certainly isn't THE factor.

So how was it Syria and Lebanon's responsibilty to atone for the holocaust? If we were really so ready to make up for the holocaust, why didn't we give some of OUR land to the Jews? Montana is SO right there, and so much nicer than Israel.

No, no, no. MONTANA isn't OUR land. Jews have a hell of a lot more historical claim to Israel than Europeans have to Montana. Honestly, it's easy to bitch about who has claim to what land halfway around the world from the comfort of your home on land that was brutally stolen from its rightful owners..

Moe

(edited by MoeGates on 6.4.02 1654)
Expressing myself EVERY day!
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