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The W - Baseball - Mid Year Baseball Awards (Page 2)
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i before e
Chorizo








Since: 17.10.03

Since last post: 1402 days
Last activity: 162 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.34
    Originally posted by jfkfc
      Originally posted by i before e
      This is probably the most accurate set of selections so far.
    How would you define accuracy in the way that you've deemed BigSteve's opinion "the most accurate"? I'd think accuracy of anyone's picks would only be deemed accurate after the World Series, when the official awards have been announced...

    AL MVP - Manny Ramirez (Joe Mauer)
    NL MVP - Albert Pujols (Nomar Garciaparra)

    AL CY - Roy Halladay (Johann Santana)
    NL CY - Brandon Webb (Brad Penny)

    AL ROY - Francisco Liriano (Jonathan Papelbon)
    NL ROY - Dan Uggla (Josh Johnson/Ryan Zimmerman)

    AL MGR - Jim Leyland (Joe Torre/Ron Gardenhire)
    NL MGR - Grady Little (Jerry Narron/Clint Hurdle)

    AL CBP - Magglio Ordonez
    NL CBP - Nomar Garciaparra

    ...and I should have known to drink all of that Aaron Small Kool-Aid with special Shawn Chacon artificial sweetener...


What I mean was I felt his picks were the closest to what the actual voting results would be based on what the selection committee's usually go after, in my opinion. Also, I find it interesting that you selected Manny as AL MVP. I've often felt that Manny never gets the credit he deserves. Without Manny's lineup protection, Ortiz would be pitched alot differently. In fact, not only does Manny put up great numbers, but I feel he makes Ortiz a more effective hitter. Thats pretty valuable right there. Also, I feel that Mike Lowell in a strange way has been just as valuable, if not more so than anyone in that lineup. Not only has his bat kept the Red Sox offense from sputtering to a halt, but his stellar defense has probably won a few games for them as well. I feel that a great defensive players get overlooked in favor of flashy HR hitters. Ortiz shouldn't be MVP for the same reason that Thome or any DH shouldn't be MVP. A guy like Ortiz's value drops drastically if he is forced to play the field for an extended period of time. Manny covers the field pretty good, and his offensive output is even more critical to the team, since without his protection, teams would just walk Ortiz, and he's not a good base runner either. I don't want to be a hater here, but lets look at the facts: His BA is well under .300, His OBP is under .400, he cant field, cant run, and I've seen more clutch hitting from Manny this year that Ortiz. If you want to name any Red Sox an MVP, it should be Manny over Ortiz. I am in NO WAY making comparisons here, but In the 30's (I think it was '36?) Lou Gehrig won the MVP over his teammate Babe Ruth. Obviously, Ruth was, and still is the most celebrated player in MLB history, but the Iron Horse was the engine that made the Yanks go, and the voters knew it. But therin lies the problem... Ruth is without a doubt the most valuable player in the history of baseball. Wheather you look at the numbers or his impact on the game, no one has ever meant more to his team than Ruth. Hell, no-one has ever meant more to Baseball than Ruth. But on a season by season basis, in '36, Gehrig was somehow deemed more valuable. I think the same applied here. Aside from Ruth and maybe Ted Williams, Ortiz is probably going to be remembered by Red Sox fans as probably the most revered Red Sox in history. However, season by season, perhaps Manny is doing more for his team THIS YEAR, rather than overall. Ortiz gets all the adulation, but w/o Manny, they'd be at around .500 right now. I ranted there. Ortiz is valuable, no question, but it just feels wrong for a DH to be named more valuable than a player that plays defense AND provides good offense. That's why the argument that Manny is more valuable to the teams success holds water. Its the intangables that guys like Ortiz bring that clouds our judgement.

redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 481 days
Last activity: 481 days
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.44
There has become an accepted myth that the only reason Ortiz produces is because Manny is behind him. Does it help, of course. However, second half of '04 and in the '04 post-season, Manny batted 3rd while Ortiz batted 4th, and some combination of Varitek/Millar/Nixon batted 5th. My memory has faded somewhat through the years, but Ortiz seemed to get plenty of clutch hits down the stretch in '04, and had 3 game ending hits in the '04 post-season when Manny was batting in front of him, not behind him. Game 4 of the '04 ALCS Ramirez 3rd, Ortiz 4th, Varitek 5th, Game 5 Ramirez 3rd, Ortiz 4th, Millar 5th as examples, and Ortiz had game winning hits in both games without the threat of Manny looming in the on-deck circle..
And in the second half of '03 when Ortiz took off, he was batting mainly 5th, behind Garciaparra and Ramirez.
And, as much as I like Manny and hope they actually keep him through his contract, Ortiz has been better in the big spot than Ramirez during the past 3 plus seasons.
skorpio17
Morcilla








Since: 11.7.02
From: New Jersey

Since last post: 2411 days
Last activity: 2411 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.85
Pujols is the nobrainer MVP. Whenever the Cardinals get a big RBI, he's the one who gets it for them.
His BABIP is .257 which means by yearend his batting average should end up in the .340s.

As much as I like giving half year awards, I'd rather bash some managers.

AL CB: some consideration should go to Corey Patterson who Dusty Baker and the Cubs shit all over.

While Santana did have a bad April,it wasn't as bad as you think. He got tagged with tough losses and only gave up 3.2 runs per start. Ron Gardenhire was the one most responsible for the Twins poor start. For the 7 games he prevented Liriano from starting in order to go with Lohse/Baker, he buried them in a hole. That decision cost them the 5 wins they need for the WC.

Jerry Narron is a horrible manager.
Where to start?
His criminal underuse of Ryan Freel.
He started Womack and fell in love with Hatteberg.
He can't decide on a closer.
Felipe Lopez can't hit lefties and should be platooned.
Adam Dunn can't play the outfield.
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

Since last post: 69 days
Last activity: 10 hours
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.65
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    He can't decide on a closer.


I won't disagree with you on the whole, but his relievers haven't exactly given him anything to work with.



They want to deliver vast amounts of information over the internet. And again, the internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a truck.

It's a series of tubes.

Sen. Ted Stevens
Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1290 days
Last activity: 1269 days
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.95
    Originally posted by skorpio17
    He can't decide on a closer.
    Felipe Lopez can't hit lefties and should be platooned.


These 2 have directly affected my Fantasy teams. I'd say he took too long getting Coffey into the job, but the way Coffey has imploded in the last few weeks might justify his initial reluctance.

Lopez, as good as he was last season, is frustrating now. Every time he looks to be on the improve, he slides back down. Then out of nowhere he'll get 3 hits and a SB from my bench.
Ukrainian Justice
Linguica








Since: 8.4.03
From: Bryn Mawr, PA

Since last post: 2800 days
Last activity: 2653 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.27
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    ROY: Papelbon. He'll be in a pennant race down the stretch, Liriano won't.


This is a lame reason at the end of the season, but this is ridiculous at the All-Star Break. You are giving weight to the fact that he'll be in a pennant race months from now for a mid-season award?
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.46
    Originally posted by spf
      Originally posted by BigSteve
      MVP - Travis Hafner, CLE. Leads the league in OPS, OBP, and SLG. HR and RBI aren't enough to swing it in Ortiz' favor

    Problem with this as I see it is the award is "Most Valuable Player" not "Player of the Year".


    Originally posted by spf
    MVP - Thome by a hair over Ortiz. Though as someone who watches the White Sox every game I would argue that Jermaine Dye has been even more valuable than Thome.


This makes no sense. You say Travis Hafner can't be the MVP because it shoud go to the "Most Valuable Player" instead of "PLayer of the Year". Then you picked a player that belongs in the "Player of the Year" category more than "Most Valuable Player". The Whitesox didn't have Jim Thome last year and they WON THE WORLD SERIES. SO you can't argue that he's the most valuable player when they can, and have, won the whole thing without him. In fact their record at this point last year (57 - 29) was one game better than this year (57 - 31). Sure without Hafner the Indians are still in fourth, but they're a whole lot worse team, the White Sox are still great without Thome. If your definiton of MVP is what team is going to not be nearly as good without them then I don't think you can choose any one player on the White Sox, Yankees, or Red Sox because you can take any one player off their team and they could all easily still win the World Series.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 12 days
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
    Originally posted by Quezzy
      Originally posted by spf
        Originally posted by BigSteve
        MVP - Travis Hafner, CLE. Leads the league in OPS, OBP, and SLG. HR and RBI aren't enough to swing it in Ortiz' favor

      Problem with this as I see it is the award is "Most Valuable Player" not "Player of the Year".


      Originally posted by spf
      MVP - Thome by a hair over Ortiz. Though as someone who watches the White Sox every game I would argue that Jermaine Dye has been even more valuable than Thome.


    This makes no sense. You say Travis Hafner can't be the MVP because it shoud go to the "Most Valuable Player" instead of "PLayer of the Year". Then you picked a player that belongs in the "Player of the Year" category more than "Most Valuable Player". The Whitesox didn't have Jim Thome last year and they WON THE WORLD SERIES. SO you can't argue that he's the most valuable player when they can, and have, won the whole thing without him. In fact their record at this point last year (57 - 29) was one game better than this year (57 - 31). Sure without Hafner the Indians are still in fourth, but they're a whole lot worse team, the White Sox are still great without Thome. If your definiton of MVP is what team is going to not be nearly as good without them then I don't think you can choose any one player on the White Sox, Yankees, or Red Sox because you can take any one player off their team and they could all easily still win the World Series.

Actually, look at the White Sox pitching this year. They are only doing nearly as well due to the fact that Thome has provided a lot more offense and helped to protect Konerko, Dye, and Pierzynski to stronger numbers. If the Sox pitching had been as solid as it was last year your point might be more valid IMO, but with 2 of our 5 starters well above the league average ERA the wins this year are all due to the offense.



Now I'll never be able to lead SPF's spfers! (The W)
BigSteve
Pepperoni








Since: 23.7.04
From: Baltimore, MD

Since last post: 2843 days
Last activity: 2571 days
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.20
I've always thought of MVP as exactly that. Which player is the "most valuable" to his team, regardless of how good the rest of his team is? Who would you pick to have on your team ahead of any other player in the league? To me, it's clear that guy is Hafner. While Thome might be the best hitter on the Sox, crediting him for keeping them in playoff contention is giving him too much credit for his teammates playing well and giving Hafner too much blame for being surrounded by a poor team.



Yes, you are a troll.
Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1290 days
Last activity: 1269 days
#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.95
I don't think anyone can define what the MVP is. You could probably count on one hand the number of MVPs in any US sport who were great players on mediocre teams. For whatever reason the MVP award seems to be reserved for players who at least get their teams to the playoffs.
From my point of view there also seems to be an element of rewarding consistency as well eg David Robinson in the NBA. So if it comes down to a toss up between Hafner and Thome, Thome would most likely win because he's paid his dues and Hafner will always have another chance to win.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 51 days
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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.45
When people try to define it as the "most valuable player to his team" I wonder where they got the "to his team" part. Who defined that? Couldn't it mean "most valuable player in baseball"? In other words if every player was up for grabs, who is the first one every team wants? Wouldn't that mean he's the most valuable? Or am I off and someone actually did define it as "to his team"?
Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1290 days
Last activity: 1269 days
#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.95
I would imagine the logic is, if you're not the most valuable player to your team, how can you be the most valuable player to all baseball?
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 51 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.45
    Originally posted by Merc
    I would imagine the logic is, if you're not the most valuable player to your team, how can you be the most valuable player to all baseball?



If you can only pick from the guys on your team, then you say well this guy is our most valuable player. But then you have to match up all the teams against each other and say which guys most valuable player is the actual league most valuable player. And it seems the answer for a lot of people is to say well this team is doing better so their guy must be more valuable. That doesn't work for me all the time.

Team should not be ignored, but not taken so hard into consideration here. All things being equal, who is the most valuable guy any team would choose to have given the option. Which is more or less who is the best player in the league.

Repeating myself a bit, taking every player in the AL or NL, based soley on production this season and not potential or previous years, in a draft who is the guy you would pick and doesn't that make him the most valuable player?

And going back to the DH hating, would you ever make that pick a DH using this standard?
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

Since last post: 52 days
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Y!:
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Repeating myself a bit, taking every player in the AL or NL, based soley on production this season and not potential or previous years, in a draft who is the guy you would pick and doesn't that make him the most valuable player?

    And going back to the DH hating, would you ever make that pick a DH using this standard?


I hope David Ortiz or Travis Hafner plays 162 games as a DH some year and hits 75 homers, just so I can hear the stupid arguments from DHaters that he shouldn't be the MVP.



"You know what you need?
Some new quotes in your sig.
Yeah, I said it."
-- DJFrostyFreeze

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