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The W - Pro Wrestling - Mick Foley's Goodwill
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minextoo
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Since: 28.5.02
From: Bloomington, IN

Since last post: 3816 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.78
Don't get me wrong, I am a big Mick Foley fan -- the wrestler and the writer (I think he has a unique storytelling style that makes him an easy and enjoyable read).

But how much more goodwill does Foley have left with fans?

How much longer can he be the hardcore legend when he's lost his last three hardcore matches (Backlash, No Way Out '00 and Rumble '00)?

The guy hasn't won a damn match since Survivor Series '99.

"The Hardcore Legend" just came back and got outsmarted at every turn by a rookie. He got punked by Randy freakin' Orton for crying out loud. He sat out to make Randy a star and he did, but at what cost?

At no point in the fued did Foley ever have the upperhand.

As far as I see it, Foley has some serious rehabbing his rep before he can give anyone else a rub. He's got nothing left to rub. The next guy who beats the crap out of him isn't necessarily going to be over because the fans are going to start thinking, "well he beat the crap out of Foley but who hasn't?"

Even Scotty Freaking Too Hotty has won a match in the last five years.

I understand that Foley is always going to get a huge pop whenever he comes back and the crowd is always going to love him, but hwo will the next guy he puts over benefit from winning a match over a dude who hasn't won in five years?

minextoo
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fuelinjected
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Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
He's not under contract so I wouldn't expect him back unless they're in dire need of someone to pop a buyrate. I doubt that the next time you see Mick Foley in WWE that he'll be putting someone over or used in that capacity.

The fans don't really care. They gave Foley standing O's after Mania and Backlash. They were just happy to see him again.

I think they should have tried to convince him to take over the Smackdown GM role and liven up that show.



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Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.57
The thing about Foley isn't whether he wins or loses, but that he gets people INTERESTED in what's happening. Foley doesn't need to win matches to gain credibility, even from very new fans who may have no idea who he is. His presence during the buildup to the Orton match was what sold the feud, not the actual match. Foley did his part in all of the amazing promos he gave and the very realistic beatings he took, and Orton did his part by giving a hell of a performance at Backlash. For Foley, the match was just a eventuality, his real accomplishment was making everybody care about the match, and Randy Orton, in the first place. No loss will hurt Foley's future credibility as long as he can continue to help provide such outstanding backstories to the losses.



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Since: 21.2.02
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.54
That's why Foley is a genius. He is one of the few (actually about the only one left) that can still make you suspend disbelief. One or two promos as Cactus and you think that his opponent is going to get murdered. All about reputation and being able to pull it off convincingly...

Look at it this way - who has Foley ever beat? Not counting Japan Death Matches, I can't recall him ever winning the blow-off match. The Ultimate Jobber to The Stars and people do not seem to mind...

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Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
I disagree with most in terms as how the Foley/Orton feud was handled. In every one on one encounter before Backlash Foley dominated Orton. Orton beat down on Foley with Evolution. Sure, we knew that Orton was going over, but the average fan thought Foley would dominate.

And in the Backlash he pretty much did. Orton took as many sick bumps as Foley. The crowd still gave Foley a standing ovation. He's over because of the character and his commitment, not wins and losses.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    The Ultimate Jobber to The Stars and people do not seem to mind ...


Because we look to Mick to get his ass beat. He's a punching bag -- a very entertaining punching bag. What he's done is put over the guys who need to be put over. Look at that Triple H feud. Look at the Rock and Austin fueds. Would they have gotten so over without Foley to work with at those points in their careers? Who else could have given Orton that step up? Certainly not Orton himself at this point; he had to go over someone big.

And Mick has the stature and the indpendence now where he's not losing precious capital each week like anyone else on RAW would. He can come back when he's asked nicely and then go back home to his family and money.

I think Foley's stance as a determined lovable loser works for him because we don't need him to win to enjoy the angle.



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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.45
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    That's why Foley is a genius. He is one of the few (actually about the only one left) that can still make you suspend disbelief. One or two promos as Cactus and you think that his opponent is going to get murdered. All about reputation and being able to pull it off convincingly...

    Look at it this way - who has Foley ever beat? Not counting Japan Death Matches, I can't recall him ever winning the blow-off match. The Ultimate Jobber to The Stars and people do not seem to mind...

    FLEA





He did win the blowoff to the epic Mikey Whipwreck feud, which allowed him to be one of the few guys in wrestling history to jump from one place to another off of a victory. That's the ultimate irony of Foley, in WCW, ECW and the WWF, the closer he came to leaving/retiring, the more he got pushed.



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Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
      Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
      That's why Foley is a genius. He is one of the few (actually about the only one left) that can still make you suspend disbelief. One or two promos as Cactus and you think that his opponent is going to get murdered. All about reputation and being able to pull it off convincingly...

      Look at it this way - who has Foley ever beat? Not counting Japan Death Matches, I can't recall him ever winning the blow-off match. The Ultimate Jobber to The Stars and people do not seem to mind...

      FLEA





    He did win the blowoff to the epic Mikey Whipwreck feud, which allowed him to be one of the few guys in wrestling history to jump from one place to another off of a victory. That's the ultimate irony of Foley, in WCW, ECW and the WWF, the closer he came to leaving/retiring, the more he got pushed.


That win over Mikey really surprised me, watching the Foley DVD. I figured that, Foley being Foley, he'd insist on doing the job on the way out.

As Flea said, Foley succeeds because he works in real emotion into his feuds. He does it intelligently and believably.

But even more, when Foley is in a pay-per-view match, he ALWAYS makes you feel like you're watching something special.



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Since: 5.3.03
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.69
I agree. It's not the decision with Mick Foley, it's how he gets there. If Mick can make you believe that he can topple Randy Orton... well, then there's your reason to watch the match. The guy is so selfless, too, that he figures once he's given the people a good fight, might as well put over the guy who has something to gain by getting a win over him (HHH in 2000, Randy Orton in 2004).

What a difference between him and The Undertaker.



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Since: 2.5.03
From: Bethesda, MD/Los Angeles, CA

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.00
I think there is a definite risk with Foley that the fans will lose their belief in him for future programs. It isn't that his goodwill will be destroyed to where the fans turn on him. It's that they will simply stop wanting to see his big matches, because they know it's just going to be another downer.

Fans will always love Foley, but there is a difference between loving him and paying money to see him in a feud. In fact, the fact that they love him might discourage them from paying to see him in a feud if they know he is going to lose. I loved Cal Ripken, Jr. as a baseball player, and as an Orioles fan he was an icon for years and years. But by the end, while I still loved him for what he did for baseball and the area, I didn't have a particular desire to see him play baseball. He wasn't playing that well, and I didn't want to go see him play as a shell of his former self. On the other hand, I went to go see Michael Jordan a number of times when he was playing for the Wiz, because he was still playing at such a high level I felt like I was getting to some degree "the real deal." I loved Cal more than MJ, but I was more likely to pay to see MJ play. Wrestling is a work, but wins and losses still do mean something.

The low preliminary buy rate for Backlash to me suggests that WWE should have booked Foley differently this time around. Perhaps Rock and Sock should have gone over on Batista or Flair, for example, at Mania. The fans needed to be given something to make them believe Foley would win. In 2000, the fans believed Foley might win at the Rumble, No Way Out and WrestleMania. By 2004, I think a lot of fans just accepted that Foley was going to lose. And that took just a little bit away from all those Foley promos.

If Foley is going to come back in a Michaels type role (with perhaps a schedule on the lighter side), the first thing he needs to do is win a few feuds. Obviously, he shouldn't go over on someone they have pegged for a top spot. Pick someone in the midcard and set up an issue where Foley goes over on PPV. It will restore faith that Foley can win important matches, and maybe Foley's next big singles match will draw better than Foley-Orton.
minextoo
Chorizo








Since: 28.5.02
From: Bloomington, IN

Since last post: 3816 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.78
Take this situation.

Suppose Foley comes back and Batista is his next "project" to make into a star.

Okay they do all they you pummel me, I pummel you crap for a few weeks to build up to a match.

Then they have a match Batista wins.

Then Foley says "hey, you beat me but I am the hardcore legend, fight me in a hardcore match"

So they have a hardcore match and Batista wins.

Beating Foley in a hardcore match should be one of the best rubs a guy can get, but in this scenario I can't see Batista walking out any bigger a star now that he was before the fued because well ..... everybody beats the crap out of Foley.

The Rock became huge because of Foley. HHH became huge because of Foley. Orton....well, does anyone buy him as World Champ now or anything? Orton kind of stepped sideways didn't he. He really got surpassed a guy with a mentally handicapped gimmick.

I understand Foley's delivery and buildup or second to none, but the guy has to win some matches to get some credibility back. Even with the buildup for Orton, I wasn't looking forward to the match because I didn't have one iota of suspense as to what was going to happen. That's not necessarily because I know of some backstage stuff and Foley's desire to put over every person in the sport. If anything his loss at Wrestlemania sort of planted a seed of doubt in the smark in me because I couldn't believe the WWE would book such a lopsided fued. Going into the match I knew Foley was going to lose not because I knew he wanted to put Orton over, but because well.....Foley always loses.

How threatening can a guy who hasn't won a match in five years be?
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Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
Your Batista example isn't the same because Batista has been built as a monster while Orton was the cocky "Legend Killer. That's why the feud worked. The low buyrate was because there was essentially a rematch in the main event.

    Originally posted by minextoo
    He got punked by Randy freakin' Orton for crying out loud. He sat out to make Randy a star and he did, but at what cost


Orton....well, does anyone buy him as World Champ now or anything? Orton kind of stepped sideways didn't he.

Kind of a contradiction in your argument here. From the "Randy" and "Randy Sucks" chants we hear, let's assume your sticking to your first statement. The whole point is to build a star. And the match at Backlash was designed to do that. Look at other forums and talk to marks, and you'll run in to a lot of people who buy Orton as a future champ.

To answer your final question, if you're not threatned by a barbie to the balls or a back filled of thumbtacks, than you ARE simply looking at it from a backstage perspective.
JayJayDean
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Since: 2.1.02
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
I've felt for some time with Foley that winning the match is secondary to what Cactus is in there to accomplish.

Cactus didn't talk about pinning you 1, 2, 3 and winning the match. He talked about making you suffer as much as humanly possible. With that, winning the match not be the main goal. In fact, making the match go as long as possible to inflict as much pain as possible would seem to match up more with Cactus' goal in the match.

I kind of feel like for Orton or HHH the victory was much more important on two levels: getting the win, AND, ending the match (and the pain and suffering).

Therefore, if Foley NEVER won a blowoff match, it wouldn't matter so much because he can get the feud over and the need for inflicting pain over without having any desire to WIN THE MATCH.



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Since: 3.1.02

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.73
I feel more annoyed than anything else about Mick's return. I was shouting til I lost my voice at the Rumble when he eleminated Orton, but since then its been one letdown after another. Foley's promos were awesome, but promos alone don't get it down with a fued with this much on the line. I feel Orton didn't put much into the fued and the matches were huge disappointments. The Wrestlemania match was a waiste of a good Rock return, Rock/Cena or Rock/Flair would have been much better. Instead we get a match that killed the crowd till the Brock/Goldberg match were the crowd was more livid than hot.

I love the fact that Foley wants to put over young stars and honestly, he doesn't have to do this. He can sit at home, write books that end up on the bestseller's lists and watch the money come in. He does this pretty cool thing of putting someone over huge, but its Orton. I know he is the new internet favorite, but lets face it, he sucks. He has no promo skills, his moveset is straight out of a generic wrestler from Smackdown and he has no real ambition. He is a walking Marty Jennety waiting for Batista to throw him into a glass window. If Foley wanted to put someone over huge, Batista was it. Batista has the mic skills and not that bad moveset.

Foley doing jobs got old in 2000. I don't buy him as a creditable threat to anyone anymore and thats saying a lot from a devote Foley mark. I am hoping he stays away from awhile because the comeback kinda sucked.
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Since: 15.10.02

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Jim Cornette once made a personal comment to Mick Foley saying that it was foolish for Foley to continuing executing dangerous stunts because the fans love Foley and care for him enough that he doesn't need to do that for a pop. The same can be said for wins or losses; doesn't matter if Foley wins, so long as the fans get to see him.



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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
So ... the Rock'n'Sock and hardcore matches weren't good, Randy is an internet favorite, and Batista is a better talker than Orton. What?
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.22
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    and Batista is a better talker than Orton. What?


I will stand behind that. His delivery (back when we heard it) was low-key and calm. No yelling. No spittle flying. No desperate search for metaphors while he stared at the camera. Orton strikes me as someone trying to remember the script when he talks. Batista never showed me that, and his mic presence was a startling contrast to his appearance as a stereotypical WWE musclehead. How he said his piece was more memroable than what he had to say and set him apart from Steiner, Test, Nathan, Kane and the other big guys during the time when Batista was talking.



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JustinShapiro
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Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.61
I think Orton, despite occassionally getting lost, has *really* good presence and delivery. To me, Batista, who has also come a long way since "MICHAELS, BIGGER YOU IN MY STOOL!," is the one who sounds like he's reading scripted lines.
Evil Antler God
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Since: 10.1.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.68
Eh. Batista's promos against Austin were better than the vast majority of HHH's promos, let alone Orton's.....but since then he's fallen back into the big guy who roars rut.....

(edited by Evil Antler God on 19.5.04 1311)
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by minextoo
    Take this situation.

    Suppose Foley comes back and Batista is his next "project" to make into a star.

    Okay they do all they you pummel me, I pummel you crap for a few weeks to build up to a match.

    Then they have a match Batista wins.

    Then Foley says "hey, you beat me but I am the hardcore legend, fight me in a hardcore match"

    So they have a hardcore match and Batista wins.

    Beating Foley in a hardcore match should be one of the best rubs a guy can get, but in this scenario I can't see Batista walking out any bigger a star now that he was before the fued because well ..... everybody beats the crap out of Foley.

    The Rock became huge because of Foley. HHH became huge because of Foley. Orton....well, does anyone buy him as World Champ now or anything? Orton kind of stepped sideways didn't he. He really got surpassed a guy with a mentally handicapped gimmick.

    I understand Foley's delivery and buildup or second to none, but the guy has to win some matches to get some credibility back. Even with the buildup for Orton, I wasn't looking forward to the match because I didn't have one iota of suspense as to what was going to happen. That's not necessarily because I know of some backstage stuff and Foley's desire to put over every person in the sport. If anything his loss at Wrestlemania sort of planted a seed of doubt in the smark in me because I couldn't believe the WWE would book such a lopsided fued. Going into the match I knew Foley was going to lose not because I knew he wanted to put Orton over, but because well.....Foley always loses.

    How threatening can a guy who hasn't won a match in five years be?


Also, the bloodiest parts of the Foley/HHH and Foley/Rock feuds came after HHH and Rock had become World Champions. Foley didn't exactly make them main event players, he cemented their images as big-match guys. Now, in both cases, feuds with Foley in the midcard helped both guys, Foley/HHH in the summer of 1997 and Foley/Rock the summer of 1998, but if you're talking about the "Hardcore Legend" matches, you have to be thinking of Royal Rumble 1999 (When Rock kicked Foley's ass two months after beating Foley in a tournament for his first World Title) and Royal Rumble/No Way Out 2000 with the Street Fight and Hell in a Cell and HHH, seven months after Triple H beat Foley for his first title.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 20.5.04 0450)
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If only the WWF/E was leaving Seattle after Mania and heading to Tacoma for RAW. Then, it could be very entertaining. The only hope is the state of Washington can recreate the magic of 2001 and chant at him either:
- redsoxnation, Goldberg Debut Date (2003)
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