The W
Views: 99876410
Main | FAQ | Search: Y! / G | Calendar | Color chart | Log in for more!
21.10.14 0520
The W - Baseball - Mets and Braves
This thread has 2 referrals leading to it
Register and log in to post!
Pages: 1(1589 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
User
Post (17 total)
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#1 Posted on
Mets scored 22 runs in a three game series against the Braves and won 2 of 3 (should've won all three though). What happened to that "AWESOME" pitching staff??


I guess it went the same place as the Mets infield defense?



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
Promote this thread!
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1325 days
Last activity: 659 days
AIM:  
#2 Posted on
What awesome pitching staff? If you're referring to the Braves, everyone and their mother has said this is the year the Braves have question marks on their staff, and if you're referring to the Mets you might be insane.



Scott Christ
Bring me Marty Cordova.

odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 125 days
Last activity: 92 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.18

If you look at the standings today, every team in the National League East is 3-3.





"The best reason for committing loathsome & detestable acts -and let's face it, I am considerably something of an expert in the field - is purely for their own sake. Monetary gain is all very well, but it dilutes the tastes of wickedness to a lower level that is obtainable by anyone will an overdeveloped sense of avarice. True and baseless evil is as rare as the purest good - and we all know how rare THAT is." - Acheron Hades, THE EYRE AFFAIR by Jaspar Fforde
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by ScottieKStones
    What awesome pitching staff? If you're referring to the Braves, everyone and their mother has said this is the year the Braves have question marks on their staff, and if you're referring to the Mets you might be insane.


WRONG, first of all everyone on this board when making preseason predictions said the Braves would win the East because of their pitching because Jason Marquis is supposed to be so awesome and Kevin Milwood is going to be great again. And all the experts picked the Braves too, why? Because of their pitching I assume. Because of the experts think that the Braves are better because they have a better offense or defense then they are not experts at all.

I however have said all along that their pitching staff isn't good, and so far I've been right.

As for being insane if I think the Mets have a great staff? Well i'd say third in ERA and third in strikeouts is pretty good. Do I expect them to stay that high? No. But i'd take their pitching staff before I took the Braves staff which was supposed to be awesome.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4211 days
Last activity: 4211 days
AIM:  
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
We are 6 games into the season. Maddux is hurt and i'm sure the whole staff is suffering from not having him there. Their confidence is down. The braves are a good team. There is no taking that away from them. However the mets are a good team too. I just think it's too early to say someone is right or wrong about the whole season. The braves pitching can turn it around and snap off 6 or 7 good starts in a roll. So i guess we'll see soon.



I am the JOBBER TO THE STARS. You better remember that.

Cardinals 3w 3l (as of 4-8)
Triple Preperation H
Chipolata








Since: 26.3.02
From: Chesapeake VA

Since last post: 2671 days
Last activity: 2667 days
#6 Posted on
The Mets also scored 9 of those runs in a one inning outburst, and the Braves committed 5 errors in the three games. Before announcing the death of the staff, take a look at the numbers. Maddux hasn't pitched. Glavine has an ERA of 1.35. Millwood's ERA is 1.88. That "awful" Jason Marquis has struggled to a really high 3.00. Even Damian Moss is at 2.57.

I don't think Leo Mazzone is soiling is underoos just yet.



I am not a has bean! I AM THE BEST WIENER IN ALL THE LAND!
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1325 days
Last activity: 659 days
AIM:  
#7 Posted on
"WRONG,"

No.

"first of all everyone on this board"

OH. Well then, since EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD said so, then golly geepers me. I am so wrong.

"when making preseason predictions said the Braves would win the East because of their pitching because Jason Marquis is supposed to be so awesome and Kevin Milwood is going to be great again. And all the experts picked the Braves too, why? Because of their pitching I assume."

Not really, they picked the Braves because they a) have more proven pitching than the Mets and b) they re-tooled their offense by adding Gary Sheffield, getting Rafael Furcal back, adding Vinny Castilla and having Marcus Giles on board for a full seaosn. Not to mention most people expect Andruw Jones to have a better season than last.

"Because of the experts think that the Braves are better because they have a better offense or defense then they are not experts at all."

If you want to match up the lineups:

1. Roger Cedeno v. Rafael Furcal - Push, but Furcal has the much higher upside.

2. Roberto Alomar v. Andruw Jones - Alomar.

3. Mo Vaughn v. Chipper Jones - This is Chipper Jones, one of the best hitters in the league, in a landslide.

4. Mike Piazza v. Gary Sheffield - Nothing against Piazza, but Sheffield's a better hitter.

5. Edgardo Alfonzo v. Vinny Castilla - Neither are terribly attractive in this position, but I guess Alfonzo is better.

6. Jeromy Burnitz v. The Braves Sixty-Headed Monster at First Base - Burnitz.

7. Jay Payton v. Marcus Giles - Giles.

8. Rey Ordonez v. Javy Lopez - Lopez.

That's 4-3-1 for the Braves. I'm not saying the Mets aren't good, and there will be games where they just explode because of their hitting (the ninth inning kaboom was a good indicator of what could come), but the Braves have a pretty damn good lineup, too.

"I however have said all along that their pitching staff isn't good, and so far I've been right."

How? Greg Maddux is hurt and Tom Glavine has been fine. Jason Marquis pitched really well in his opener. And EVERYONE IN THE WORLD said that the Braves had questions on their pitching staff because of age (both young and old), inconsistency (Lopez, Millwood) and bullpen depth.

"As for being insane if I think the Mets have a great staff? Well i'd say third in ERA and third in strikeouts is pretty good."

In how many games? Al Leiter is a fine ace, but past him every single starting pitcher has problems. Estes puts too many people on base, Astacio may or may not have shoulder problems and may or may not outright suck at this point, and Jeff D'Amico is one buffet away from eating his way back onto the DL when he strains something because he can't get his arm around his boobs.

"Do I expect them to stay that high? No. But i'd take their pitching staff before I took the Braves staff which was supposed to be awesome."

No it wasn't. That's the entire point of this.



Scott Christ
Bring me Marty Cordova.

Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#8 Posted on
You're crazy! Sheffield is not a better hitter than Piazza. Sheffield averages 22 homeruns a year and 73 RBI a year. Piazza averages 31 homeruns a year and 97 RBI a year. And Piazza's career average of .325 in FIRST in the ENTIRE majors and Sheffield's average is 30 points lower at .295. Piazza has a better slugging percentage, better OPS, has more power, can hit to opposite field. Piazza is better than Sheffield easily.

And Alfonzo is not attractive!? Alfonzo was probably the Mets MVP the last two seasons he was healthy he knocked in 100 runs in the 2 spot. If Mo can get healthy again Alfonzo can knock in 120 - 140 RBI this season.

And yeah, Jay Payton has not show much and has not lived up to his potential but two years ago he atleast had close to 20 homeruns and 60 RBI or so, and could've done the same last year if healthy, and that might not be very good but it's better than Giles who has shown absolutely nothing so far.

I'd also say Cedeno over Furcal, I don't buy Furcal as a leadoff hitter. Cedeno is a better hitter, faster, better on base average. Sure Furcal has a great upside and tons of potential, but that doesn't mean he'll be good, and definitely doesn't mean he's good right now.

So by my count that's 6 - 2, but you know what, i'll just say that Furcal and Cedeno is equal, and i'll even put Payton and Giles as equals, that's still 4 - 2 - 2 for Mets because there is no way that Sheffield or Castilla are as good as Piazza and Alfonzo.


And lastly, i wasn't saying you were wrong about Braves having a questionable staff, I agree with you. I'm saying you're wrong that EVERYBODY agrees. All I've heard so far is that the Braves are going to win the NL East because of their pitching.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1325 days
Last activity: 659 days
AIM:  
#9 Posted on
"Piazza is better than Sheffield easily."

You're also ignoring Sheffield's injury problems from all but three years before 1999, and even in 2001 and 1999, he missed roughly 20 games in each season. His 162-game averages are better, though still not as good as Piazza's. The basis of me liking Sheffield better as a hitter than Piazza are OBP (Sheffield has been .400+ every year since 1995, Piazza hasn't been over .400 since 1997, though his numbers aren't BAD -- again, none of this is to say Mike Piazza is not a fantastic hitter, because he surely is). I tend to ignore things Sheffield did from 1988-1991 when he was a shitty player, since they really do not matter at this point. Sheffield's key strength is plate discipline, he walks a lot more than he strikes out. Piazza, well, does not, which is both odd because he's a great hitter and a testament to how good he is.

Even if you reverse those two, which is certainly agreeable to me, you're acting as if the Braves have a terrible lineup in comparison to the Mets, which is horribly false.

"And Alfonzo is not attractive!? Alfonzo was probably the Mets MVP the last two seasons he was healthy he knocked in 100 runs in the 2 spot. If Mo can get healthy again Alfonzo can knock in 120 - 140 RBI this season."

Alfonzo hit .243 last season with 49 RBI, and was a huge factor in New York's utter inability to put runs on the board. I like Alfonzo, but he would not exactly be my first choice as a No. 5 hitter.

"And yeah, Jay Payton has not show much and has not lived up to his potential but two years ago he atleast had close to 20 homeruns and 60 RBI or so, and could've done the same last year if healthy, and that might not be very good but it's better than Giles who has shown absolutely nothing so far."

Marcus Giles took over leadoff duties with Furcal out last year, and while he wasn't great at it (it's not what he's cut out for, obviously), he gave them at least a half-ass decent option there and a good enough glove to stabilize second base. The other options were Keith Lockhart, who is a bit player and nothing more, and Mark DeRosa, who is a poor fielder. Giles has also played all of about half of a full season thus far, and is 24 years old. Payton will be 30 in November and will pretty much never get better than he is right now, which is below-average.

"I'd also say Cedeno over Furcal, I don't buy Furcal as a leadoff hitter."

They're almost the same guy.

"Cedeno is a better hitter, faster, better on base average."

In Furcal's one full season, he stole 40 bases, hit .295, and had an OBP of .394. Cedeno, whose best season was '99 with the Mets, had 66 steals, a .313 average, and a .396 OBP. Good numbers, surely, but last season he hit an empty .293 with a .337 OBP. He's another guy that just strikes out way too much for his job, which in this lineup, is simply to put the ball in play and get on base. Furcal's already a more disciplined hitter than Cedeno is, and could and should be better than him this season. Could and should, not will. (I really don't like Cedeno, so take that into account, too.)

"Sure Furcal has a great upside and tons of potential, but that doesn't mean he'll be good, and definitely doesn't mean he's good right now."

He is good right now. He's one of the three best shortstops in the NL, along with Rich Aurilia and Jimmy Rollins.

"And lastly, i wasn't saying you were wrong about Braves having a questionable staff, I agree with you. I'm saying you're wrong that EVERYBODY agrees. All I've heard so far is that the Braves are going to win the NL East because of their pitching."

Everything I read that holds any water to me said the Braves should likely have better pitching than the Mets and a far improved lineup, but not that they have fabulous pitching that should carry them into the World Series or anything. Maybe that they have pitching that could carry them over the Mets, but then you get to the widely-given reason of the Mets being overhyped because they did a whole lot of lineup retoolery and very little with the pitching staff in terms of true upgrades. Maybe you and I just have different sources. Like, I don't consider the Wienerboard a source.

(edited by ScottieKStones on 10.4.02 1503)

Scott Christ Bring me Marty Cordova.

TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2447 days
Last activity: 2447 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#10 Posted on
A position-by-position comparison would probably be better for Sheffield and Piazza. Piazza obviously blows away Lopez, Sheffield is better than Burnitz, who might have a higher strikeout average than batting average. Both are better at their respective positions; the Mets will get more production from the catching spot, the Braves will get more out of right field.

Even speaking as a Mets fan, I'm pulling for Payton to do something, but I don't see it happening. Alfonzo can't be as bad as he was last year (knock on wood).

Oh, and 8 of those runs came against star closer John Smoltz, eerily reminding me of another John who was also in the ballpark for that game....

Wasn't Cedeno in Detroit last year?

More importantly, can we debate this in a couple of months when there IS something to debate? 6 games do not a season make, although that's enough for Mo Vaughn to get injured.
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#11 Posted on
"You're also ignoring Sheffield's injury problems from all but three years before 1999, and even in 2001 and 1999, he missed roughly 20 games in each season."

Actually I am taking them into consideration, but I was also taking Piazza's injuries into consideration, nobody and I mean NOBODY gets beat up as much as Mike Piazza does during a season. It's only 8 games into the season and he's already been hit 4 times, hurt his shoulder, hurt his back, hurt his knee, and yet he stills plays as much as possible, still plays injured, refuses to switch to another position and still puts up better numbers than Sheffield, and doesn't whine every year like Sheffield, i'd take him on my team over Sheffied in a heartbeat. ANd like I said before, it's not that I don't like Sheffield because I have him on my fantasy baseball team.


"Alfonzo hit .243 last season with 49 RBI, and was a huge factor in New York's utter inability to put runs on the board. I like Alfonzo, but he would not exactly be my first choice as a No. 5 hitter"

Well that happens when you're injured for about a third of the season. And the Mets inabiility to put runs on the boards was when Alfonzo WASN'T playing which should show you how important he is to the team. When he came back is when New York went on a run and nearly won the East.

"In Furcal's one full season, he stole 40 bases, hit .295, and had an OBP of .394. Cedeno, whose best season was '99 with the Mets, had 66 steals, a .313 average, and a .396 OBP. Good numbers, surely, but last season he hit an empty .293 with a .337 OBP. He's another guy that just strikes out way too much for his job, which in this lineup, is simply to put the ball in play and get on base."

Well since he has a better batting average than Furcal I'd say he does a better job of putting the ball in play than Furcal.

"Wasn't Cedeno in Detroit last year?"

Yes



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1325 days
Last activity: 659 days
AIM:  
#12 Posted on
"Well since he has a better batting average than Furcal I'd say he does a better job of putting the ball in play than Furcal."

If you're basing this on this season, I don't want to hear it. I mean seriously, I could say Pokey Reese kicks Alex Rodriguez's ass if you wanted to go by this season. Or that Derrek Lee is way better than Jason Giambi. Or any number of things.

"and doesn't whine every year like Sheffield"

At least Sheff doesn't choke people for running him inside. (I'm joking.)

"And the Mets inabiility to put runs on the boards was when Alfonzo WASN'T playing which should show you how important he is to the team. When he came back is when New York went on a run and nearly won the East."

I never said he isn't important to their team, I, in fact, said his non-production last year was one of the reasons they were so mediocre.

And okay, position-by-positon. I'm bored.

C: Piazza v. Lopez - Duh.

1B: Mo v. Surhoff/Franco/Helms - Mo.

2B: Alomar v. Giles - Alomar

3B: Alfonzo v. Castilla - I'll go with Alfonzo because he should be way, way, way better and I hate Castilla because he sucks.

SS: Ordonez v. Furcal - Furcal.

LF: Cedeno v. Chipper - Chipper, easily.

CF: Payton v. Andruw - Andruw, easily.

RF: Burnitz v. Sheffield - Sheffield.

I still think the Braves are every bit as good as the Mets, but time will tell, I suppose. One thing that concerns me about the Braves is their horrid lack of depth. God forbid Chipper goes down and left field is up to Surhoff. Why, that would mean that there are only TWO shitty first basemen to choose from. Heavens no.



Scott Christ
Bring me Marty Cordova.

TheCow
Landjager








Since: 3.1.02
From: Knoxville, TN

Since last post: 2447 days
Last activity: 2447 days
AIM:  
Y!:
#13 Posted on
The reason I had asked about where Cedeno was is because I don't entirely consider Detroit a suitable major-league baseball club right now (although my fave, Felipe Alou, is with them - what has he done wrong to get dealt with another bad team?), same as last year. I believe Cedeno's numbers were down for two reasons: 1 - Detroit in general wasn't a good team last year and 2 - Give someone a year to get adjusted to a different league; if he had stayed for two years, then there's a basis for comparison, but I don't see one as of now.

Basing anything on two weeks' production (except that your fantasy team is going to do horrible) is a bad idea in general.
cfgb
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 8 min.
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
Because of the experts think that the Braves are better because they have a better offense or defense then they are not experts at all.

Yeah, I'll take those 25 errors a dozen games in ANYDAY!




Contact cfgb
Visit my homepage
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 19 hours
AIM:  
#15 Posted on

    Originally posted by cfgb
    Because of the experts think that the Braves are better because they have a better offense or defense then they are not experts at all.

    Yeah, I'll take those 25 errors a dozen games in ANYDAY!



Shoot, if you dont think that Alfonzo/Ordonez/Alomar aren't going to shape up and be one of the best infields in Majors by the end of the year then you know nothing about baseball.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
cfgb
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Ottawa, Ontario

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 8 min.
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.87
Oh, I know plenty to know they're a nasty trio. But potential doesn't take back the 7 errors by Ordonez!




Contact cfgb
Visit my homepage
SerWolfe
Landjager








Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

Since last post: 4211 days
Last activity: 4211 days
AIM:  
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
7 errors in this many games. amazing. Of course the cards are picking up more errors then i like too.



I am the JOBBER TO THE STARS. You better remember that.

Cardinals 8W 5L (as of 4-15) Can Benes Pitch?
Pages: 1Thread ahead: mlb.com Beat the Streak
Next thread: Mets vs. Braves, different topic than other
Previous thread: rotisserie reminder
(1589 newer) Next thread | Previous thread
When I heard about Omar Infante, I figured that maybe to go with the increase in set-up relievers, an All-Star manager finally figured out that it may come in handy to have someone come off the bench and steal you a key base late in the game..
- TheOldMan, 2010 All-Star Rosters (2010)
Related threads: Mo Vaughn.. - The NL East - More...
The W - Baseball - Mets and BravesRegister and log in to post!

The W™ message board

ZimBoard
©2001-2014 Brothers Zim

This old hunk of junk rendered your page in 0.119 seconds.