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18.3.24 2217
The W - Pro Wrestling - Meltzer on title reigns
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Mr Shh
Lap cheong








Since: 9.1.02
From: Monmouth County, NJ

Since last post: 1286 days
Last activity: 1285 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
I don't know the proper way to link (wrestlingclassics.com) it, but Meltzer's post is about halfway down the page. I personally think this is some amazing insight into the way things work, and I guess if you thought about it hard enough, you would have come to the same conclusions. But it's cool to actually see it come from the "inside" (or as close to inside as Dave is). I think I'm more confused than ever though. Some observations/questions:

1) HHH putting over HBK in 02 was more to pad HHH's stats than it was to just put over his best friend?

2) Benoit's win on Sunday, seemed to me at first glance, to be a changing of the guard. It was *plainly* obvious that Benoit wasn't being groomed for the title the entire year, but he sorta was since Nov/Dec.

3) It was HHH's idea to create a second World title cause he refused the IC title? I don't get that at all, since creating the second title seemed to be the only logical thing to do, given split rosters.

4) What exactly was the plan (if there was one at all) going into WM IX? What were the cirumstances behind Bret getting his first title? And when was the decision made to give Yoko the title? For that matter, when was the decision made to give Hogan the title?

5) It certainly seemed that Luger was being groomed for the title in 93. I wonder if there was never any intention at all in giving him the belt - just grooming a challenger for Yoko.
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JustinShapiro
Scrapple
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Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1755 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.52
"1) HHH putting over HBK in 02 was more to pad HHH's stats than it was to just put over his best friend?"

Well, it was both. The point is that HHH has no reservations about dropping the title since he knows he's always eventually getting it back.


"2) Benoit's win on Sunday, seemed to me at first glance, to be a changing of the guard."

It elevates Benoit to the top, but not in the sense that Benoit is going to replace Hunter as the top guy on Raw. Whereas when Eddie won the title, the decision had been made that they were going to run with him as the focus of Smackdown, an actual changing of the guard from Brock to Eddie.


"3) It was HHH's idea to create a second World title cause he refused the IC title?"

Yes.


"4) What exactly was the plan (if there was one at all) going into WM IX?"

First it was just find a new challenger for Bret and build him up to put Bret over. Then Hogan came back, so the idea was to transition the belt from Hart to Hogan without doing Hart vs. Hogan, then Hogan would pass the torch to Hart. Except Hogan didn't want to be phased out, nor did he want to drop the belt to a small guy like Bret, so he quit the company and instead dropped it back to the Monsterous Yokozuna.

"What were the cirumstances behind Bret getting his first title?"

Oh shit we fired our top babyfaces (Warrior and Bulldog) and have to make a new headliner in a hurry.


"5) It certainly seemed that Luger was being groomed for the title in 93."

He was. Then they decided to hold it off until Mania X for a big coronation. Then at the '94 Rumble they realized Luger wasn't over and everyone actually wanted Bret.
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 4864 days
Last activity: 429 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    "5) It certainly seemed that Luger was being groomed for the title in 93."

    He was. Then they decided to hold it off until Mania X for a big coronation. Then at the '94 Rumble they realized Luger wasn't over and everyone actually wanted Bret.


Is there any truth to the story that a Luger title win was nixed at the last minute by Vince, because Lex had been bragging about it the previous night, in a bar?

Always sounded a little far fetched, that some drunk talk would cause a shift in the main event of the year's biggest show.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02, 3.12.03

"In addition, my tickets weren’t really what you’d expect from the webmaster of the internet’s largest independent pro-wrestling website." - Widro

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


KOTR
Cotto








Since: 27.11.03

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.17
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    5) It certainly seemed that Luger was being groomed for the title in 93."

    He was. Then they decided to hold it off until Mania X for a big coronation. Then at the '94 Rumble they realized Luger wasn't over and everyone actually wanted Bret.


Yes Luger was being groomed for the title, however the rumour I heard was that Luger was infact going to win the title at Wrestlemania X off yokozuna, and then have a big blow off match with Bret at Summerslam. The night before the event a drunk Luger was spouting his mouth to people that he was getting the title at WMX. So Vince changed the outcome, hence Mr Perfect screwing Luger and Bret beating the mamoth Yokozuna. Dont know why Luger and Bret didnt have there blow off though. Maybe a punishment to Luger, because at WMXI he was teaming with Bulldog to take on The Blu Twins in a curtain jerker.

(edited by KOTR on 19.3.04 1341)
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

Since last post: 1755 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.52
"Is there any truth to the story that a Luger title win was nixed at the last minute by Vince, because Lex had been bragging about it the previous night, in a bar?"

Bret was always planned to get the belt. As far as Luger winning the first match, alls I know is it's never been mentioned by Meltzer in the Observer from 1994 to present, nor is it ever mentioned by Keller in Ask the Torch when people ask about Luger not getting the belt. So I think that's an internet myth, like Steve Austin being booked to win the WWF Title at Final Four in '97 but hurting his knee and changing the match on the fly. I mean, they had known since the Rumble that Bret was going to get the belt at Mania, so why would Luger be bragging that he was going to get to hold the title for an hour?

(edited by JMShapiro on 19.3.04 1355)
BoromirMark
Potato korv








Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

Since last post: 3262 days
Last activity: 3262 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.41
Reading that drivel, I've now lost any and all respect for Dave Meltzer.



"People use freedom of speech to make up for freedom of thought, which they lack." - Kierkegaard

JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.52
OH NO~!
AvidMerion
Pinkelwurst








Since: 19.3.04
From: Essex , England

Since last post: 7303 days
Last activity: 7296 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
I recon Triple H should get a title shot for the World Heavy Weight belt at Backlash in a Hell in a Cell!
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 4864 days
Last activity: 429 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
    Originally posted by AvidMerion
    I recon Triple H should get a title shot for the World Heavy Weight belt at Backlash in a Hell in a Cell!


Well done, agent. Did your reconnaissance produce any microfilm of the booking sheets, or late night trysts with exotic Eastern European femme fatales?





-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02, 3.12.03

"In addition, my tickets weren’t really what you’d expect from the webmaster of the internet’s largest independent pro-wrestling website." - Widro

"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex
"Was he no-selling?" - Me


oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 5421 days
Last activity: 5355 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.02
"Reading that drivel, I've now lost any and all respect for Dave Meltzer."

Because God knows we all know more about the situation than America top wrestling journalist!

"Well done, agent. Did your reconnaissance produce any microfilm of the booking sheets, or late night trysts with exotic Eastern European femme fatales?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAewwwwwwww Eastern European femme fatales






For Relaxing Times...Make It Suntory Time

drjayphd
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 22.4.02
From: New Hampshire

Since last post: 756 days
Last activity: 341 days
ICQ:  
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
You wanted the best, you got... Out of Context Quote of the Week.

"This coming from the man with the YOU EAT COCK in his signature." (StaggerLee)


    Originally posted by asteroidboy
      Originally posted by AvidMerion
      I recon Triple H should get a title shot for the World Heavy Weight belt at Backlash in a Hell in a Cell!


    Well done, agent. Did your reconnaissance produce any microfilm of the booking sheets, or late night trysts with exotic Eastern European femme fatales?




Just as BoromirMark loses respect for Meltz... I've gained respect for you. If only for the femme fatales comment. XD



DEAN's Nuggets of Wisdom:

"A-Train could wear a Vampirella outfit and I would toast a load to it."
Joe E. Nitro
Salami








Since: 4.2.04

Since last post: 7065 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.13

    I think he's at times been a great wrestler and he's very smart, although if he was as smart as he thinks, he'd have figured out why business was down. He's buried people with Vince constantly and the reason they had to bring Benoit is was because he'd buried everyone else to where they couldn't mean anything challenging him.


This is as much a reason for the Draft as anything. Everyone on his show has been buried causing Benoit to come to Raw and also leaving no one to jump to Smackdown to fill any kind of void. Triple H has helped kill the rosters on two shows.


    The idea Vince will put business in front of family is best exemplified by, when creative went to hell, he got rid of the head of creative even though it was his daughter. Remember when that happened? Business and family to him are the same. It's a business that defines his family and is a business of and for his family. HHH is his family.



Maybe it's all the beer, but I'm having a harder time than I should reading between the lines here on his closing statement. Shapiro, care to translate?


fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 6696 days
Last activity: 6696 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
If you're running a business and a department of your company goes from churning out greatness to shit, wouldn't you remove the head of that department? The one responsible for running it and hiring/recommending the people of that department. You probably would.

Well that person is Stephanie McMahon and Vince isn't firing his daughter. He isn't even moving her to a different part of the company.

Why? Because WWE is a family business, the McMahon legacy, if you will. First and foremost, it exists for his children (and their children, etc) like the vast majority of family businesses. So family comes first and Triple H is family.

What was a main reason why Vince became so heavily featured on TV in 1998? Because HE COULDN'T LEAVE! That's why Shane and Stephanie also got onto TV because they weren't going to bail on the company. Triple H is one of them now, he's not one of the boys, he's a McMahon, he comes first before anyone else because he's family!

So what if business is down? Vince isn't going to blame his own family.
SKLOKAZOID
Bierwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 1683 days
Last activity: 812 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.83
    Originally posted by Mr Shh

    3) It was HHH's idea to create a second World title cause he refused the IC title? I don't get that at all, since creating the second title seemed to be the only logical thing to do, given split rosters.


It doesn't make any sense the way it is.

You have the "WWE Champion" who can only go on SMACKDOWN! and then you have the "World Heavyweight Champion" that can only go on RAW.

So, if someone is the champion of the World, doesn't that make their title more valuable than someone who is just the champion of WWE? If you really are the champion of the World, why are you bound by WWE rules? Can't you go on SMACKDOWN!, too? What restricts Benoit, being the champion of the World from going to SMACKDOWN!, should he choose to? Likewise, if Eddy is the champion of WWE, shouldn't that include RAW, too?

Boxing titles make more sense than this.

Names aside, the way they split the title up was also rediculous. Brock, being the Undisputed Champion, could go wherever he wanted. If he chose SMACKDOWN! exclusively, that was his choice and it was up to a RAW guy to defeat him and bring the title back. Built-in story right there. The Undisputed Champion was not bound by exclusive contracts. Once the Big Show beat Brock, he would have had the right to go back to RAW because he had that belt.

The idea of a floating champion was a great one. I will admit that it was an inconvenience with both brands sharing PPVs at the time and the subsequent confusion as to which brand got a title shot during which month (especially the major PPVs), but when you won the Unidsputed Title, you could go wherever the hell you wanted because you were King Shit of WWE.

But, in a strictly hypothetical situation where the belt split was done properly, it's still a stupid idea. This year, at WrestleMania, the World Title was obviously more important than the WWE Title. So, is that the top prize in WWE or what? Last year, it was the WWE Title that got the main event, so it must have been more valuable last year.

Maybe the big prize is just winning the Royal Rumble, because that seems to be what guarantees you the main event slot. In that case, who needs a belt when you're the Rumble winner?

Ultimately, there should only be one man who is at the top of the mountain. To do any less dillutes the value of the World Championship (not just Benoit's, but Eddy's too) and we end up with two secondary titles. As it stands, literally, no one man is the champion of WWE nor the World at this moment.

I love the way WrestleMania XX ended, with both Benoit and Eddy celebrating their World Championship wins together and it was great that, if we could have any two guys wearing World Titles, it would be those two.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 19.3.04 2101)
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 3739 days
Last activity: 3427 days
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.07
Once upon the time, there was one title: The NWA Championship. It was held by the greatest grapplers in the land (including Lou Thesz, Billy Watson, Pat O'Connor & Buddy Rogers). In 1963, a few promoters decide to come up with their OWN title and create the WWWF Championship. It co-existed on it's own merits with the NWA Championship and eventually garner enough of a reputation that in the late 1970s the (now) WWF created another title for competition: the Intercontinental Title. The WWF Champion was the greatest wrestler in the world, arguably, while the Intercontinental Champion was the greatest wrestler within the continent (excluding the WWF Champion). Compare, if you will, the selected lineages of the WWF & Intercontinental Titles...

WWF: Buddy Rogers, Bruno Sammartino, Pedro Morales, Superstar Billy Graham, Bob Backlund, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Andre the Giant, the Ultimate Warrior, The Rock, Triple H, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, the Undertaker, Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Yokozuna, Shawn Michaels, Kane, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle & Chris Jericho
Intercontinental: Pat Patterson, Pedro Morales, Don Muraco, Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, Ricky Steamboat, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart, the Mountie, Shawn Michaels, Razor Ramon, Jeff Jarrett, Goldust, Triple H, Owen Hart, Steve Austin, The Rock, Ken Shamrock, Edge, D'Lo Brown, Chyna, Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Kane, Lance Storm & Rob Van Dam

The early titlests for WWF Title were far superior...but recently the Intercontinental Title was almost an equal to it. So, if they had just, y'know...TOLD us what the hell Intercontinental MEANT, maybe they wouldn't have had to come up with a lame second title.



THE FLAMES: 36-26-7-3 for 82 points in 72 games
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ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

Since last post: 480 days
Last activity: 4 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Ahh, but it's the InTERcontinental Title, not the InTRAcontinental Title. Every continent is represented on the title belt. Therefore the I-C Champion didn't just represent the North American continent, he represented every continent on Earth. So judging strictly by name, what makes a World Champion that much different from an Intercontinental Champion?

Obviously, I'm not saying the I-C Title is in any way equal to the World Title. But if we're gonna play word games, let's play word games.

Onto the other topic... Benoit's restricted to RAW because the World Title is exclusive to RAW, while Guerrero's restricted to SmackDown! because the WWE Title is SD!-exclusive. Besides, those aren't the only two titles considered “world” titles, you know. There's also the NWA World Heavyweight Title, the Ring of Honor World Heavyweight Title, and even the Major League Wrestling World Heavyweight Title.

But for example, the NWA World Heavyweight Champion defends his belt against all top challengers in the entire promotion (and presumably, still defends the belt in NWA branches other than the most well-known, TNA). The NWA World Champion isn't restricted to any one show, so does that make the NWA World Title more “legitimate” than the SmackDown and RAW World Titles?



“Chris Benoit, finally, is the Heavyweight Champion of this world!”
--Jim Ross, WrestleMania XX

Wiener of the Day Title History:

Won the title on 5/27/02 from Lunacy in a hardcore match; lost the belt the following day to wheresitat42 via offbeat shenanigans

Regained the title on 7/3/02 by pinning SKLOKAZOID in a triple-threat match; lost the belt the next day to NickBockwinkelFan via heel chicanery

Certified RFMC Member-- Ask To See My Credentials!

AvidMerion
Pinkelwurst








Since: 19.3.04
From: Essex , England

Since last post: 7303 days
Last activity: 7296 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.90
cris benoit doesnt deserve the world heavy weight title - hes only got like 2 teeth
Tenken347
Knackwurst








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 32 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.08
I don't know, it always made sense to me the way we wound up with two world titles. Brock decided that he was only going to defend his title on Smackdown, so Bischoff decided to dispute Brock's undisputed title. Makes sense, why should RAW recognize a champ that won't defend on their show. It's really the same logic that says WWE doesn't recognize the NWA title as the world title. For storyline purposes, they were originally just going to elevate the IC title to the main RAW title, but HHH argued that if Smackdown has a world title, and RAW doesn't recognize that title, then RAW should have it's own world title. He was right. (Although eliminating the IC belt altogether was a pretty poor decision, which even the company later recognized). So when Bischoff disputed the title, as an acting governing body of the WWE he had every right to strip Brock of half his title and do whatever he wanted with it. Now we have two world champs, arguable equal in stature. Theoretically, at any time those titles could be reunified.
AvidMerion
Pinkelwurst








Since: 19.3.04
From: Essex , England

Since last post: 7303 days
Last activity: 7296 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.90
brock lesnar has got a title shot for his heavy weight belt at backlash in a hell in a cell cool
SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 4762 days
Last activity: 4096 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.46
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Ahh, but it's the InTERcontinental Title, not the InTRAcontinental Title. Every continent is represented on the title belt. Therefore the I-C Champion didn't just represent the North American continent, he represented every continent on Earth. So judging strictly by name, what makes a World Champion that much different from an Intercontinental Champion?


The world champion is also the champion of the high seas - duh.



Scott Christ
Oh, Billy - I should've left you dead, baby.
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I'm kinda torn on the issue of more belts. I wasn't happy when they got rid of the I.C belt, so i'd like to see it back. But there are alot of titles already (Raw and Smackdown combined), and it can get a bit confusing.
- geemoney, RAW-Mid Card Hell? (2003)
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