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The W - Baseball - Mariners hire Hargrove
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Interesting...
    Originally posted by ESPN
    SEATTLE -- Mike Hargrove has been named manager of the Seattle Mariners, the team said Wednesday.

    The team said Hargrove had agreed to a three-year contract for 2005 through 2007. Terms of the deal were not announced.

    "I am very pleased to name Mike Hargrove as our new manager," general manager Bill Bavasi said in a news release. "He has a tremendous resume and is battle-tested in every facet of leading a major league club."

    Hargrove, 54, comes to Seattle from the Cleveland Indians, where he was an assistant to general manager Mark Shapiro.He compiled a 721-591 record as Indians manager during 1991-99, leading them to five straight American League Central Division titles and trips to the World Series in 1995 and 1997.

    Hargrove managed the Baltimore Orioles during 2000-03, compiling a 275-372 record. He was fired after the Orioles finished 71-91 in 2003.

    The Mariners fired manager Bob Melvin, who finished 93-69 in 2003 but only 63-99 this season.
This is the third time that Hargrove has been handed a young or rebuilding team with the charge of sauntering forward. If that is the goal, than this is a good pick. But after watching him in Baltimore for four years, I'm not sure this will be the guy managing the M's when they are ready to contend again...



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BOSsportsfan34
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Since: 2.1.03
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93
He had the talent in Cleveland but not in Baltimore. Still in Cleveland, the Indians failed in the 95 and 97 World series and blew an 0-2 lead to the Red Sox in the 99 ALDS.





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Since: 2.1.02
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.84
    Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
    He had the talent in Cleveland but not in Baltimore. Still in Cleveland, the Indians failed in the 95 and 97 World series and blew an 0-2 lead to the Red Sox in the 99 ALDS.


At least they got there, which is more than we're able to say about our local nine. I like it.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
      Originally posted by BOSsportsfan34
      He had the talent in Cleveland but not in Baltimore. Still in Cleveland, the Indians failed in the 95 and 97 World series and blew an 0-2 lead to the Red Sox in the 99 ALDS.


    At least they got there, which is more than we're able to say about our local nine. I like it.


I think you guys need a new GM/team most of all. The '04 Mariners had to be one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory, but I'll leave it to you Mariner fans to make that call.



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Since: 11.12.01
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
I am a fan of Hargrove because he's a player manager but not a player coddler like Dusty Baker, and he handles veteran teams well. That said, I don't think he's the guy to right the Seattle ship. I mean, come on - team that was recently quite good, lost a great manager via stupidity, went in the can, and now want to get back to contention (cheaply, mind you), with two other teams in the division very much in their way? I've seen Hargrove try this before with a dumb organization, it didn't work out.



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Since: 25.2.04
From: Keystone State

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89
My uncle is an Indians fan, and I'm going to have to call him tonight. He has an irrational hatred of Hargrove that I can't figure out. Are there a lot of Clevelanders who feel this way about him? What's the reason?
whatever
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Since: 12.2.02
From: Cleveland, Ohio

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.64
Beats me. In general, most of Cleveland liked the guy as far as I knew. I like the guy, and thought he was a pretty calm, rational manager. He did lead the Tribe through their greatest successes in the last 40 years. He was great for the community, too. I thought it was a mistake to replace him with Charlie Manuel, but I do think they needed a change at the time.

JJD - I remember the Tribe going thru Seattle for the '95 ALCS. What a great series that was!

I say good move for the Mariners. He's a good, experienced manager.

(edited by whatever on 20.10.04 1711)


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Since: 2.1.02
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.84
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    I think you guys need a new GM/team most of all. The '04 Mariners had to be one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory, but I'll leave it to you Mariner fans to make that call.


Actually, I'd like to replace the owners. Bret Boone said going into the season the team felt really good about themselves anbd their chances, so that reflects well on Bavasi, I think. Even though some of Bavasi's moves went bad (especially essentially trading Carlos Guillen for Rich Aurilia) at least they just said they were trying to make an offense that would score more runs. I wish they hadn't underestimated Mike Cameron's defense and the impact losing him would have, but I think Bavasi will rebound this year and I like the Grover hire.

The OWNERS, OTOH, were loathe to replace any of the M's aging players and kept thinking that they would show up and be successful after losing A-Rod, Junior, and Randy. They cut some guys loose a year or two too late, unlike teams like Atlanta or Boston who always retool to some extent from year-to-year.



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Since: 11.12.01
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.58

    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    now want to get back to contention (cheaply, mind you), with two other teams in the division very much in their way?
I would argue that there are THREE teams in their way in the AL West. The Rangers will be reckoned with again next season, too!




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Since: 2.1.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.84
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    I mean, come on - team that was recently quite good, lost a great manager via stupidity, went in the can, and now want to get back to contention (cheaply, mind you), with two other teams in the division very much in their way? I've seen Hargrove try this before with a dumb organization, it didn't work out.


Scott, I kind of skipped over your post (lemme thank pieman for causing me to go back up and reread it), so I'd like to ctake issue with a couple of your points.

One, that Piniella was lost "due to stupidity". Piniella was great, no doubt, but he was VERY high-maintenance and always complaining about what he DIDN'T have as opposed to what he DID have. I don't think calling him a "diva" would be overstating it, and the M's ownership got tired of it. I absolutely think that the Mariners' brass was sick of whiny ol' Lou and they wanted to see if they could still be successful without him, not without acknowledging that Lou was great for the organization, but that except for the three hours per day when he was actually in the dugout managing, his act had worn pretty thin.

Piniella was the one who asked to leave, so he could "be closer to home" (TM Ken Griffey Jr.), anyway. He saw the team was aging and didn't want to be around for the drop off the cliff. Pat Gillick left as GM for the same reason, too. Were they right to see that ownership was not laying the groundwork for continued success by overhauling the roster and keeping the "Seattle Mariners: You've gotta LOVE these guys" guys around a bit too long? Yes, but saying ownership was "stupid" for wanting to stick with what had been working for them and filling up the stadium seems a bit harsh.

(And YES, I DID say I'd like to replace the owners just two posts above. I just wouldn't go so far as to call them "stupid", or "dumb". Hargrove said at his press conference that the Mariners were one of the top "four or five" organizations in the league. He may have been happy-to-get-the-job-overstating, but I doubt that, say, the Pirates' next manager or the Mets' next manager will be saying the same thing.)

And they DID win 93 games the year after he left, and I DO think the 2003 team overachieved to some extent to win those 93 games, and I also think that's a BIG part of the reason why Bob Melvin was fired, because the dropoff from 93-69 to 63-99 is SO dramatic, compared to 80-82 to 63-99. I think Bob Melvin will be a successful manager, eventually, but I think the owners thought they went with someone too green and they needed to rectify things before they could get off to a potentially bad start next year.

Two, the idea that they would like to get back to contention "cheaply". The Mariners had a $93 million payroll at the start of 2004. That's not being "cheap". They blew it on not offering Tejada the sixth year on the contract and letting him go to Baltimore, for sure. But they have said (and I believe) that they are prepared to lose a pile of money next year to insure as best they can that they'll get back into contention, and I fully expect them to sign a Troy Glaus, or a Richie Sexson, or a Carlos Delgado, and a frontline starter, and to overpay if necessary. They know the fans here are VERY fickle and they can't afford to start out slowly again.

Of course, if their marquee free agent signing next year is on the Raul Ibanez-level, then I take it ALL back.



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Since: 11.12.01
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.58

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    They blew it on not offering Tejada the sixth year on the contract and letting him go to Baltimore, for sure.

They blew it even bigger by trading Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago. That may well go down in history as one of the Mariners' worst trades ever - right after Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumnb, that is!




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Since: 12.2.02
From: Cleveland, Ohio

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.64
What about Omar Vizquel for Felix Fermin? And the subsequent non-trade of Guillen for Vizquel?



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Since: 2.1.02
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.83
    Originally posted by pieman
    They blew it even bigger by trading Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago. That may well go down in history as one of the Mariners' worst trades ever - right after Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumnb, that is!


Well, they essentially traded Guillen for Aurilia, and while Aurilia was a total bust in Seattle and Carlos' stats looked nice, Guillen did only hit .260 in August then went on his annual trip to the DL, so I'd say they were half-right, they just got the wrong replacement.

And, I pointed out to Mrs. JJD last night that Woody Woodward DID in fact trade the Red Sox' starting battery in Game 7 of the ALCS for Heathcliff Slocumb. I will now light myself on fire. (TM Bill Simmons)

    Originally posted by whatever
    What about Omar Vizquel for Felix Fermin?


Well, they did have a young guy you might've heard of ready to step in a shortstop: Alex Rodriguez. They saved a couple of million dollars on that move by using Fermin as a stopgap from Omar-to-A-Rod.



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Since: 20.2.03

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.74
Talking about Mariners front office blunders, huh? What about trading John Olerud for a free spot on the freaking roster.

Now I know he wasn't doing well at all, but nobody else was at the beginning of the season(not even Ichiro). And you don't have to drop him from the damned team!

I fear that Ichiro will be the next in the long list of great players to exit the Mariner's locker room. And I'd be willing to bet that he will soon be keeping Matsui and Bernie company in the outfield.
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Since: 9.7.02
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    I fear that Ichiro will be the next in the long list of great players to exit the Mariner's locker room. And I'd be willing to bet that he will soon be keeping Matsui and Bernie company in the outfield.


Matsui and Beltran, maybe. Bernie won't be starting in center (or anywhere else) for the Yankees next year.



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Since: 11.12.01
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    >One, that Piniella was lost "due to stupidity". Piniella was great, no doubt, but he was VERY high-maintenance and always complaining about what he DIDN'T have as opposed to what he DID have. I don't think calling him a "diva" would be overstating it, and the M's ownership got tired of it. I absolutely think that the Mariners' brass was sick of whiny ol' Lou and they wanted to see if they could still be successful without him, not without acknowledging that Lou was great for the organization, but that except for the three hours per day when he was actually in the dugout managing, his act had worn pretty thin.


I think we can argue that Piniella was as good as lost with the organization and fed up with their front office the year he asked for hitting help at the deadline and got almost nothing from Gillick. That's what I was referring to. Whether or not he would've wanted out anyway, I dunno, but I think that's what really got it rolling. Piniella is most certainly a pain in the ass, but he's a successful one.


    Hargrove said at his press conference that the Mariners were one of the top "four or five" organizations in the league. He may have been happy-to-get-the-job-overstating, but I doubt that, say, the Pirates' next manager or the Mets' next manager will be saying the same thing.)


The Mariners are historically rather content to be bridesmaids, and I guess I have no issue with that itself. I don't really feel up to analyzing the organizations around the league, but to put Seattle's front office in front of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Angels, Twins, Athletics, Braves or Cardinals is really stretching things. It's not just the success of those clubs, it's the continued successes of them (the Cubs the least proven of them all, but for once they're out there trying to do whatever's in their power - this year it didn't work out for a number of reasons, obviously). Some spend money willy-nilly, but they have it to spend, so they do. Others build with what they've got available to them. I feel that's a well-rounded group. There are other teams I think you can argue for over Seattle, too. The M's just haven't really gone the extra mile when they really obviously need it. This year is a no-contest, of course, because they just fell on their faces and wasn't nothin' gonna save that crew.


    Two, the idea that they would like to get back to contention "cheaply". The Mariners had a $93 million payroll at the start of 2004. That's not being "cheap". They blew it on not offering Tejada the sixth year on the contract and letting him go to Baltimore, for sure.


Seattle has shown very little willingness to go out and get people since they made the deal for Ichiro, but if they intend to go for broke, as you said, good for them. I think it's too late NOW, which makes this all seem very panic mode-ish, but that will remain to be seen. I wish Hargrove good luck, because I like him, and he's going to need it. There are three other strong managers in that division to contend with.

(edited by ScottChrist on 22.10.04 0037)


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Since: 2.1.02
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.94
Since I REALLY can't argue with any of the points Scott's making THERE (because they are all great points that are right on), let me just add on to the "List of crappy M's trades". Here's an entry from the Dave Hollins (not a BAD player, but no great shakes and a Mariner for a month) bio at baseball-reference.com.

August 29, 1996: Traded by the Minnesota Twins to the Seattle Mariners for a player to be named later. The Seattle Mariners sent David Ortiz (September 13, 1996) to the Minnesota Twins to complete the trade.

Think they might like to have THAT one back?

(Note: Today's P-I has an article about the FIVE ex-M's who are now Red Sox. Timlin and Mike Myers are the other two.)



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