Since he's not a free agent, I figured he should get his own thread.
According to this article: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3121448 The Mets are looking to trade for Manny. And also according to that article, if they don't get Manny, they're looking in Sosa's direction. Magpipes is third on their list. Now I don't pretend to be a genius or anything, but why would the Mets want to trade for either Manny or Sosa when there's a free agent out there named Beltran?
"What you don't understand, you can make mean anything." -Palahniuk
Originally posted by BullittMike Cameron over Carlos Beltran?
Did you watch any of the NL playoffs??
I don't think the point was that Cameron would be taken over Beltran, nor would you need to watch one second of the NL playoffs to make that decision, but Cameron is in the way and probably can't be traded very easily on account of he sucks. If you aren't even going to bother using Mike Cameron's glove in center, there is really no point to having him, and they're stuck with him.
The ranking of Magglio Ordonez behind Sammy Sosa says more about the Mets than anything else here though, but if they take him, at least it means the Orioles won't.
I'm still hoping to see Cameron play for the Padres. I think it could happen - Lord knows we need a center fielder. I just hope they can get someone of that caliber without having to dismantle our young pitching lineup.
(edited by Guru Zim on 29.10.04 2311) Willful ignorance of science is not commendable. Refusing to learn the difference between a credible source and a shill is criminally stupid.
I certainly wouldn't mind Manny on the Mets, but I don't see how it happens. Sure the Mets are going to trade Reyes or Wright and nobody else on the Mets is worthy giving up Manny for. Magglio should be the #2 choice over Sosa definitely and I'd bet on Magglio being a Met.
The Mets aren't in the Beltran race because of money also. I mean sure Magglio isn't going to be cheap but I'm betting that after the injured season he had he's not going to be making Beltran money.
Originally posted by ScottChristThe ranking of Magglio Ordonez behind Sammy Sosa says more about the Mets than anything else here though, but if they take him, at least it means the Orioles won't.
Sosa may be old, an asshole, and all the other things we know him to be, but he didn't end up having to go to Vienna for some sort of weird mystery surgery on his knee. This Ordonez injury is giving me weird "Bo Jackson injury" vibes at this point.
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Originally posted by evilwaldoYou forget that this is the Mets we are talking about.
Sadly, as a Mets fan, this is precisely what I fear. A fading Sammy Sosa or a banged-up Magglio? No problem for a team that traded Scott Kazmir for damaged goods!
Unless the trade for Sosa involved getting rid of Cliff Floyd, that is....then, I'd help load the van and drive him myself to LaGuardia.
Bottom line, I want them to show some restraint for a few years and build for the future. They haven't gone anywhere with Glavine, Leiter, Floyd, Piazza since 2000. Let's move them for prospects, save payroll, and then when the youngsters like Wright and Reyes are fully developed supplement them with a few key free-agent acquisitions. But I'm a realist, and know that with that other team across the river it's not going to happen.
Would be nice to have a manager, too...
"Remember, it's not a lie if *you* believe it." - George Costanza
For whatever it's worth, Cameron had about exactly the year the Mets should have expected from him when they signed him. He's also hardly being paid a fortune or anything ($4.3 million in '04), so actually his tradeability is up given that I, for some reason, thought he was being paid over $6 million/year.
Cameron had his worst defensive season since 2000, but he was still well over league average for center fielders.
Range Factor/9, CF, 2004 (NL average 2.53, AL average 2.64) Rocco Baldelli, TBD 3.03 Jay Payton, SDP 3.01 Randy Winn, SEA 2.92 David DeJesus, KCR 2.88 Mike Cameron, NYM 2.74 Carlos Beltran, KCR/HOU 2.70 (3.05 KCR, 2.44 HOU) Andruw Jones, ATL 2.67 Scott Podsednik, MIL 2.63 Aaron Rowand, CWS 2.63 Vernon Wells, TOR 2.63 Torii Hunter, MIN 2.59 Mark Kotsay, OAK 2.57 Luis Matos, BAL 2.57 Johnny Damon, BOS 2.54 Marquis Grissom, SFG 2.54 Tike Redman, PIT 2.54 Garret Anderson, ANA 2.46 Alex Sanchez, DET 2.44 Ken Griffey Jr., CIN 2.43 Marlon Byrd, PHI 2.38 Steve Finley, ARI/LAD 2.37 (2.20 ARI, 2.69 LAD) Jim Edmonds, STL 2.36 Bernie Williams, NYY 2.34 Coco Crisp, CLE 2.32 Laynce Nix, TEX 2.32 Corey Patterson, CHC 2.18 Luis Terrero, ARI 2.14
This stat indicates a few things: (1) the Mariners did not miss Cameron's defense as much as most think, though Cameron is still quite good; (2) the Padres don't need Cameron for his glove, but could use the bat; (3) Jim Edmonds was seriously overrated this year because of his highlight reel catches. He had the same type of season in '01; (4) Corey Patterson is still awful in center; (5) if DeJesus hits, make that another fine center fielder the Royals produce but won't be able to keep.
As far as his hitting goes, Cameron's walks were a little down and his average dropped. At the same time, his power was back up to '01 levels and he set a new career-high for homers, plus he still steals a few bases. At $4.3 million, you can do worse than what Cameron put up. Batting average and his strikeouts tell only a small part of the story, and no one signed Mike Cameron expecting him to hit .270, let alone .300, or thinking he wasn't going to strike out.
Cameron's numbers this season were much like Tony Clark's were during his days in Detroit: Once the team went in the tank and the games were meaningless, he played well. When the Mets were within 1 in July (an indictment on the N.L. East if there ever was one) Cameron was hideous. A little off topic, but looking at the numbers, how long will Tampa be able to afford Baldelli?
Originally posted by redsoxnationCameron's numbers this season were much like Tony Clark's were during his days in Detroit: Once the team went in the tank and the games were meaningless, he played well. When the Mets were within 1 in July (an indictment on the N.L. East if there ever was one) Cameron was hideous. A little off topic, but looking at the numbers, how long will Tampa be able to afford Baldelli?
Well, this is only his 2nd year in the majors. If I'm not mistaken, don't the Devil Rays own his rights for the first six years of his career? And will he make enough through arbitration to force the Rays to trade him? I wouldn't think so, at his current rates of production, but he's young yet.
"You know what I'm happiest for? I'm happiest for Bill Buckner, Calvin Schiraldi, Bob Stanley, Johnny Pesky, Ted Williams, all of the Red Sox that played before us will now be remembered for the great players and great people they were instead of all the other crap." Curt Schilling
Originally posted by ScottChristAs far as his hitting goes, Cameron's walks were a little down and his average dropped, but he always hit better in Seattle than he did on the road, so that might've been to be expected.
Huh? Cameron's home/road batting average splits were .218/.258 in 2002 and .235/.268 in 2003. Safeco Field had psyched Cameron out, and he couldn't wait to get out of here (plus there was NO way the M's were going to re-sign his at a good value).
Re: Range Factor, any stat that one would use to either say Randy Winn is a good centerfielder, or justify that Randy Winn would somehow be an upgrade over Mike Cameron or Torii Hunter needs to be SERIOUSLY taken with a grain of salt. Randy Winn a good enough athlete, but there is NO WAY he's a top-three major league CF. The guy had no instincts and doesn't MAKE plays.
Here's a fielding stat: In 2003, the Mariners (with and OF of Winn, Cameron, and Ichiro) allowed 234 combined doubles and triples. In 2004, with Ibanez, Winn, and Ichiro, they allowed 337. Meanwhile, in 2004 the Mets allowed 312, down from 358 (with 41 triples!) in 2003. That tells me what I need to know about Mike Cameron in CF.
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You're right, I was backward on the Safeco split. My mistake.
Originally posted by JayJayDeanHere's a fielding stat: In 2003, the Mariners (with and OF of Winn, Cameron, and Ichiro) allowed 234 combined doubles and triples. In 2004, with Ibanez, Winn, and Ichiro, they allowed 337. Meanwhile, in 2004 the Mets allowed 312, down from 358 (with 41 triples!) in 2003.
That's every bit as much a pitching stat as it is a fielding stat, and consider how much worse the Seattle pitching was in '04 compared to '03. Their team ERA was up a full run and they allowed 158 more hits total. The Mets were also half a run better this year than last year. Mike Cameron wasn't so amazingly great either year that he should be looked at as the sole reason for either development.
The Mariners also had an outfield full of fast players before, whereas now, with the huge outfield in the park, you have Ibanez in left rather than Winn. I'm also not simply blaming Ibanez, who plays left field just about as well as anyone needs to play left field, but Safeco is indeed a place where it helps to have three speedy outfielders. Ibanez is a lot of things, one of them is not fast. Of course this is just an idea - how much of it would you say would be Ibanez v. Winn, as much if not more than Winn v. Cameron?
But yes, I certainly don't say "Take this as gospel", because there's always something else that will tell a different story. And I agree that I would not take Winn over Cameron on any day for defensive purposes in center field.
Defensive Win Shares, CF, 2004 Andruw Jones, ATL 7.4 Johnny Damon, BOS 7.1 Jim Edmonds, STL 6.5 Corey Patterson, CHC 6.3 Carlos Beltran, KCR/HOU 6.1 Mike Cameron, NYM 5.9 Torii Hunter, MIN 5.3 Scott Podsednik, MIL 5.3 Juan Pierre, FLA 5.2 (I forgot Pierre earlier) Rocco Baldelli, TBD 5.1 Vernon Wells, TOR 5.1 Steve Finley, ARI/LAD 4.8 Randy Winn, SEA 4.6 Laynce Nix, TEX 4.3 Aaron Rowand, CWS 4.2 Coco Crisp, CLE 3.7 Garret Anderson, ANA 2.8 Bernie Williams, NYY 2.1
Of course it's another grain of salt, etc. But it presents the other side of the argument.
Originally posted by WhitebaconAnd it also presents Corey Patterson in a better light. There's no way he's as bad as his Fange Factor would suggest.
Corey again had to cover for Moises Alou, who is awful, and Sammy Sosa, who isn't much better anymore. Alou has never been very good, but Sosa used to be a fantastic outfielder. Corey is quick but his instincts tend to fail him badly, and having to take up the gaps with two bodies that can make an out if it's hit to them and not much more, can be a factor against him.
In all of his full seasons (counting '03 as he played while he was healthy), he's been well below average in RF/9. It's not that he makes errors or anything, he only had one in 157 games this year. I do think Corey is better off as a left fielder, which is as good a reason as any for the Cubs to offer Beltran the moon, get rid of Sosa, and find a rent-a-RF (Jermaine Dye?)
Especially the parts about offering the world to Beltran and pawning Sosa off on someone. That man was completely lost at the plate for the majority of this season. Beanballs to the head, back spasms, bursitis...he was swinging at pitches that 90 percent of major league hitters don't swing at.
I agree with the last two posts especially... Sosa is on his way out. He might have one good/great season left in him, but that's about it. Beltran is a great fit for the Cubs, but also a pretty decent fit for the Mets. Granted, you don't want to lose Cameron's glove in center, but if you move him to left, trade Floyd and re-up with Hidalgo, that's a formidable outfield.
But that won't happen. The Mets will most likely trade too much for Sosa or sign Magpipes for too much money and be stuck with salary/prospect issues for the next five years a la the Bobby Bonilla situation.
The Mets would be much better off trading Floyd and Piazza for prospects/low-grade players and sucking for the next three years as opposed to signing free agents who are past their prime and sucking for the next three years anyway.
Before this post-season, I didn't know what was worse; waiting for the Red Sox to fail in the playoffs or waiting for the Mets to fail in the off-season.
"What you don't understand, you can make mean anything." -Palahniuk
No WAY do they trade Varitek. He is much more important to the team than Pedro, who is on the downswing of his career and costs more money than he's worth. They could get two good pitchers for the amount of money they're paying Pedro.