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sergeial
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Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 2948 days
Last activity: 2864 days
#1 Posted on
Just for something to keep me distracted from looking at spoilers, I tallied up how many Main Events each wrestler has been in in the last 24 PPVs. In the case of elimination matches I only counted the final two.

Austin - 9 - Back, but for how long?
Undertaker - 8 - BBFHL?
HHH - 7 - Here for now, but does he need rehab time after WM?
Rock - 6 - Back, but leaving again
Angle - 5 - Out for a year
Jericho - 4 - In line for a big push?
Lesnar - 4 - Definitely in line for a big push
Hogan - 3 - BBFHL?
HBK - 2 - BBFHL?
Booker - 2 - ILFABP?
Benoit - 1 - ILFABP?
Kane - 1 - ILFABP?
RVD - 1 - ILFABP?

I don't think there's any doubt, now is the time to make new stars.

sergei





"A true champion knows how to handle adversity."-- Kurt Angle
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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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Y!:
#2 Posted on

    Originally posted by sergeial
    Just for something to keep me distracted from looking at spoilers, I tallied up how many Main Events each wrestler has been in in the last 24 PPVs. In the case of elimination matches I only counted the final two.

    Austin - 9 - Back, but for how long?
    Undertaker - 8 - BBFHL?
    HHH - 7 - Here for now, but does he need rehab time after WM?
    Rock - 6 - Back, but leaving again
    Angle - 5 - Out for a year
    Jericho - 4 - In line for a big push?
    Lesnar - 4 - Definitely in line for a big push
    Hogan - 3 - BBFHL?
    HBK - 2 - BBFHL?
    Booker - 2 - ILFABP?
    Benoit - 1 - ILFABP?
    Kane - 1 - ILFABP?
    RVD - 1 - ILFABP?

    I don't think there's any doubt, now is the time to make new stars.

    sergei




INteresting list. We go no one under 30 here, right, except Brock. Kurt under 30? I dunno. Close, I'd say.

The rest: Most of them are 35+ with a few being 40+ (Hogan, of course, but Michaels and the 'Taker are right up there. Let's see:

Taker's 42, Michaels is 38-39, Austin's about the same, as is Booker. Kane, Benoit are a couple years younger and Trips, Angle, Jericho and VanDam a year or two under that. Rock's about 31 or so. Lesnar's, what 24-25?

Yeah. And the big, new stars, like Randy Orton? On the shelf. Where is Doug Basham?






We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
sentonBOMB
Frankfurter








Since: 25.11.02
From: Jersey

Since last post: 1884 days
Last activity: 585 days
#3 Posted on
while it's bad in a way that all of the major stars are really getting up there in age, it's in a way heartening for me to see that. i've always been a big proponent of pushing the younger guys, and it looks like the wwe might finally need to start doing that in a real way. they have guys --- helms, cena, orton, etc. -- that are ready to be pushed, certainly not to the top but definitely higher than where they are now. JR used to talk about creating the stars of tomorrow in his raw report.. now's the time for them to start doing that.
OMEGA
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Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1852 days
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#4 Posted on
They're certainly starting to push young Rob Van Dam, what with leaving him off the card of WrestleMania and all.

Well, at least Nathan Jones and Albert are on there. God, I hate Vince.



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Since: 15.10.02
From: Eagan, MN

Since last post: 3574 days
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#5 Posted on

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Yeah. And the big, new stars, like Randy Orton? On the shelf. Where is Doug Basham?




Last article I saw on him said he wouldn't be called up anytime soon.



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Since: 23.10.02
From: Tarheel State

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#6 Posted on
The problem with the results is the elimination of the elimination participants besides the final 2- Were they not in the match??? yes they were. Sometimes we people shape their experiments to get the results they want.



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Since: 10.3.03
From: Elmwood, IL

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#7 Posted on

    Originally posted by OMEGA
    They're certainly starting to push young Rob Van Dam, what with leaving him off the card of WrestleMania and all.

    Well, at least Nathan Jones and Albert are on there. God, I hate Vince.



Yeah, 'cause the card's, you know, finalized and everything. It is this weekend, right?

Waitaminute...you mean Wrestlemania's two weeks away? With plenty of time to put him in a match? Wow, nice to know I didn't jump to a conclusion there...



Awww, their soccer team's lyin' all over the place!
emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 122 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    INteresting list. We go no one under 30 here, right, except Brock. Kurt under 30? I dunno. Close, I'd say.

    The rest: Most of them are 35+ with a few being 40+ (Hogan, of course, but Michaels and the 'Taker are right up there. Let's see:

    Taker's 42, Michaels is 38-39, Austin's about the same, as is Booker. Kane, Benoit are a couple years younger and Trips, Angle, Jericho and VanDam a year or two under that. Rock's about 31 or so. Lesnar's, what 24-25?

    Yeah. And the big, new stars, like Randy Orton? On the shelf. Where is Doug Basham?



Pretty good for off-the-top-of-your-head! :-) Rummaging on the web (Did I mention that I've been bored this week?), I get :

name agePPV MEs/24
Hogan 493
Undertaker 408
Austin 389
HBK 372
Booker 37 2
Benoit 35 1
Kane 35 1
Angle 34 5
HHH 33 7
Jericho 32 4
RVD 32 1
Rock 30 6
Lesnar 25 4


That looks like a pretty reasonable distribution to me.
dMp
Banger








Since: 4.1.02
From: The Hague, Netherlands (Europe)

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#9 Posted on
Main eventers have always been guys around their thirties..
I think that's very logical, as most guys make it to WWE around their 25, then spend a few years tweaking their char, working their way up the ranks (in the past that meant running with the IC title) and then they are ready for the big leagues.
Austin and HHH are both good examples of that.
The same goes for Taker, though he got a push right away due to his awesome gimmick.
Rock was a few years younger but the guy was special.

As far as 'how about bringing in the youth'...WCW and ECW folding and the influx of 'foreign' talent fucked everything over.
All of a sudden there is a guy like Booker T who is already established name in WCW, is already in his mid thirties but need to be build up in WWE to make them well known. (not everybody knew him from WCW, remember..)

And then there are the Benoits Jerichos and RVDs who came in in their late 20s/early 30s and were again different, they were basically upper-midcarders and for them too it would take a few years to season a bit in the WWE.

Oh, and ofcourse this Olympian who comes in in his late 20s/early 30 clogging up the main event within the year too.

Add to that the fact that some legends were available again (Hogan, Shawn, Hall & Nash -though that didnt last long-)
and it is quite apparent that right now the main event is full as it is.

Usually the WWE knows how to slowly refresh the main event every 5 years, remove one and add another guy. With all the weird influences from outside over the past few years their system is totally fucked up now.
Edge could be the next main eventer, but it is full already. Hurricane, Rey, Christian, Rhyno, and who knows else could be deserving of a main event status but the damn place is just full. And not with people 'protecting their spot' but with people who have the right to be there, by years of work or just sheer brilliance.

Oh, want a good example of refreshing the main event? When Foley retired, Angle got pushed to the top within a few months. When Austin had to take time off, HHH stepped in.




AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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Y!:
#10 Posted on

    Originally posted by dMp
    Main eventers have always been guys around their thirties..
    I think that's very logical, as most guys make it to WWE around their 25, then spend a few years tweaking their char, working their way up the ranks (in the past that meant running with the IC title) and then they are ready for the big leagues.



100 agree. It's just that WWE needs a couple of younger guys to step up. Back in the 80s, they had a young Hogan, a young Savage, a relatively young Piper, a young HonkeyTonk Man, a young Warrior and other relatively young mid to upper card guys like King Kong Bundy, Jim Duggan, Mike Rotunda and others. Their older stars, like Pedro Morales and Bob Backlund and even the occasionally wrestling Bruno Sammartino were not main eventing. And the WWF flew off the table after 20 years of relative down time in pro wrestling.

Kurt and Brock and Rock and Trips have a chance to do that same thing today. (I am still of the opinion that Benoit and Jericho and to some extent Van Dam will never be more than consistant upper mid carders, tossed as a bone to the workrate lovers). But they need new, young guys too. That's why the Cenas and Baptistas and Ortons of the world need to be on the Big Show, near the top as Vince can find a spot for them.



We'll be back as soon as order is restored.....
sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 2948 days
Last activity: 2864 days
#11 Posted on
JWStorm - I agree, I did adjust the parameters of the experiment to get the type of result I was interested in. I wanted to look at who the fed was booking as main eventers, and I don't think that all 30 guys in a Royal Rumble should count.

You could make the argument that the final four should be counted, not just the last two, which would add a Main Event credit to Batista, Austin, Perfect, and Kane for being in the final four of the last two rumbles, and two for Jericho, one for Kane and one for Angle for being in the final four of the main event elimination matches of the last two survivor series.

I noticed when I was going through this that I had misread the results of the Invasion main event. This was not an elimination match but just a regular ten-man tag match. So I suppose I should give a Main Event credit to Rhyno, DDP, Bubbah, DVon, Austin, Jericho, Kane and Taker for being in that match.

The list with these changes would go: Austin 11, Undertaker 8, HHH 7, Jericho 7, Rock 6, Angle 6, Lesnar 4, Hogan 3, Kane 3, HBK 2, Booker 2, RVD 1, Batista 1, Perfect 1, Rhyno 1, DDP 1, Bubba 1, DVon 1.

I think that still supports my original point, that the fed has been leaning pretty heavily on a few guys that aren't going to be there for them pretty soon (Rock and Angle) or whose long-term longevity is in some question (Austin and Undertaker). Also, the injury bug has taken out a number of workers that they may have been hoping to elevate to that level (Edge, Batista, Orton)

dMp makes the point that Main Eventers have always usually been in their mid-thirties, and that the main event scene has been too crowded for anyone to be elevated. I agree and have no problem with that, up till now. My point was that we know that two main-eventers will be gone after WM, and several others may not last much longer either, so now is the time to push someone new.

In one of the theads about Angle's injury, someone made the point that right now reminds them a great deal of when Bret and HBK stepped up in the absence of Hulk, Nash, and Hall, or Austin and Foley in the absence of Bret and HBK, or Rock and HHH in the absence of Austin and Undertaker. I think now seems like one of those times, when making new stars seems necessary, inevitible, and possibly awesome, despite the bad news causing it.

sergei




"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2772 days
Last activity: 2756 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91

    Originally posted by AWArulz
    That's why the Cenas and Baptistas and Ortons of the world need to be on the Big Show, near the top as Vince can find a spot for them.


Not Batista, please. There's enough of his like plodding around the ring as it is.

The main-event scene is a little disturbing to me, actually.

We have, in Hogan, Michaels, Undertaker, and, arguably, Flair (he main-events occasionally), guys that are past their prime and show it. They are around because of what they used to mean to the business, not what they actually bring to the table today. Not that that's automatically a bad thing.

In Austin, we have a guy who's getting up there, getting broken down, who may or may not actually still "have it."

The Rock obviously still "has it," but is only around sporadorically, so he's not a legitimate top guy.

Triple H obviously does NOT "have it" anyore, but is still there all the fucking time, but the hell with it, what're you gonna do?

Angle is a legitimate top guy, but is going to be out.

Edge is in the same situation, although he isn't as proven as a main eventer, or as capable in the ring, as Angle.

Lesnar is another unproven commodity, but at least he's healthy and solid in the ring, if not on the mic.

Booker T and Kane are over, but getting a little long in the tooth. They could be top guys, (hopefully Booker actually will be) but they aren't a long-term investment.

Benoit is the shit in the ring, but is a bit bland with his gimmick and on the mic, and will most likely hang out in the upper-midcard with Kane forever.

RVD is super over, young, but can't cut a promo if his life depended on it, and his ringwork is an aquired taste.

Guys like Cena and Orton are not ready for the big leagues yet, period.

The only guy who has the "total package" of competent wrestling, good promos, an established character and a good look is Jericho. I'm not his biggest fan, but I like the man and think he could fill the shoes of top guy if he got the chance.

But, the fact that he's the only one who's ready to step up (in my opinion) bothers me. We just saw Edge and Angle get all fucked up, and they were young and healthy. Every time I see one of the older guys take a decent bump, it worries the shit out of me. They could break themselves at any time, and the WWE isn't doing a very good job of grooming anyone for the top-tier who hasn't already been there, with the exception of Lesnar, who I still can't make up my mind about.

If they keep banking on the old guard, they are going to seriously fuck themselves, in my opinion.



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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 7 hours
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
Who says a wrestler needs to be the "total package" to be a bonafide main eventer? Bret Hart was never the most dynamic interview in the world, and yet he got the big push. I think this is a big problem with WWE right now; they keep looking for the next all-around guy like Austin or Rock and overlook several guys who might have it all save for one thing.



Well Mr. Burns had done it.
The power plant had won it.
With Rogers Clemens clucking all the while.
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness made us smile.
While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on
the barroom tile.
We're talkin'...
Softball.
From Maine to San Diego.
Talkin'...
Softball.
Mattingly and Canseco.
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw.
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law.
We're talkin' Homer...
Ozzie and the Straw.
Scott Summets
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Since: 27.6.02

Since last post: 3816 days
Last activity: 3785 days
#14 Posted on
    Originally posted by sergeial
    JWStorm - I agree, I did adjust the parameters of the experiment to get the type of result I was interested in. I wanted to look at who the fed was booking as main eventers, and I don't think that all 30 guys in a Royal Rumble should count.

    You could make the argument that the final four should be counted, not just the last two, which would add a Main Event credit to Batista, Austin, Perfect, and Kane for being in the final four of the last two rumbles, and two for Jericho, one for Kane and one for Angle for being in the final four of the main event elimination matches of the last two survivor series.

    I noticed when I was going through this that I had misread the results of the Invasion main event. This was not an elimination match but just a regular ten-man tag match. So I suppose I should give a Main Event credit to Rhyno, DDP, Bubbah, DVon, Austin, Jericho, Kane and Taker for being in that match.

    The list with these changes would go: Austin 11, Undertaker 8, HHH 7, Jericho 7, Rock 6, Angle 6, Lesnar 4, Hogan 3, Kane 3, HBK 2, Booker 2, RVD 1, Batista 1, Perfect 1, Rhyno 1, DDP 1, Bubba 1, DVon 1.

    I think that still supports my original point, that the fed has been leaning pretty heavily on a few guys that aren't going to be there for them pretty soon (Rock and Angle) or whose long-term longevity is in some question (Austin and Undertaker). Also, the injury bug has taken out a number of workers that they may have been hoping to elevate to that level (Edge, Batista, Orton)

    dMp makes the point that Main Eventers have always usually been in their mid-thirties, and that the main event scene has been too crowded for anyone to be elevated. I agree and have no problem with that, up till now. My point was that we know that two main-eventers will be gone after WM, and several others may not last much longer either, so now is the time to push someone new.

    In one of the theads about Angle's injury, someone made the point that right now reminds them a great deal of when Bret and HBK stepped up in the absence of Hulk, Nash, and Hall, or Austin and Foley in the absence of Bret and HBK, or Rock and HHH in the absence of Austin and Undertaker. I think now seems like one of those times, when making new stars seems necessary, inevitible, and possibly awesome, despite the bad news causing it.

    sergei



Going back to WM in 2001, Booker T, RVD and Benoit's stats should be different. RVD has main evented 3 PPVs (SurSer 2001, Unforgiven 2002, SurSer 2002). Benoit has 2 or 3 depending on wether or not the Team Angle match was a main event. And Booker has 5 (Invasion 2001, Summer Slam 2001, Unforgiven 2001, SurSer 2001, SurSer 2002).

(edited by Scott Summets on 18.3.03 0757)


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sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 2948 days
Last activity: 2864 days
#15 Posted on
Most of the differences you're referring to are due to me not counting everyone in an elimination match, under the rationale that the Rumble Match was the main event of the Royal Rumble PPV for the last two years, but all thirty guys shouldn't count as main eventers. In the first version of the list I only counted the final two, in the second version I only counted the final four. RVD and Booker were in the main event of the last two Survivor Series, (and the last two Rumbles for that matter), but were not in the final four of any of those matches.

And Booker was in a title match at Unforgiven 01, but it was not the last match, Angle/Austin was.

sergei



"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 9 hours
#16 Posted on
I don't know, I think several people, myself included, would argue that Bret Hart usually cut a very solid and entertaining promo.
OMEGA
Lap cheong








Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1852 days
Last activity: 1820 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by Captain_12_Pack

      Originally posted by OMEGA
      They're certainly starting to push young Rob Van Dam, what with leaving him off the card of WrestleMania and all.

      Well, at least Nathan Jones and Albert are on there. God, I hate Vince.



    Yeah, 'cause the card's, you know, finalized and everything. It is this weekend, right?

    Waitaminute...you mean Wrestlemania's two weeks away? With plenty of time to put him in a match? Wow, nice to know I didn't jump to a conclusion there...



Huh. Looks like I might have been right about this one afterall. Only one more RAW until WrestleMania, and still no RVD match announced.



You thought watching Thunder was bad? Raw is like watching Thunder in re-runs.
sergeial
Boerewors








Since: 27.2.02
From: Minneapolis

Since last post: 2948 days
Last activity: 2864 days
#18 Posted on
While I concede that it's ridiculous that his match hasn't been finalized this late in the game, I deeply doubt that he'll be left off the card. It looks to me like RVD+Kane / Dudleyz / Storm+Regal (or something like that) is in the cards.

sergei



"A true champion knows how to deal with adversity."-- Kurt Angle
Captain_12_Pack
Polska kielbasa








Since: 10.3.03
From: Elmwood, IL

Since last post: 2971 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by sergeial
    While I concede that it's ridiculous that his match hasn't been finalized this late in the game, I deeply doubt that he'll be left off the card. It looks to me like RVD+Kane / Dudleyz / Storm+Regal (or something like that) is in the cards.

    sergei



He beat me to it--but that's, indeed, what I was about to say.

Although the buildup will be lacking, at least he'll have a match, which is more than what he had back in December.



Awww, their soccer team's lyin' all over the place!
OMEGA
Lap cheong








Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1852 days
Last activity: 1820 days
#20 Posted on
Hey, I could care less if he has any buildup or not. I don't care if he's in the main-event or the opening match. As long as he's on the card, I'm happy. I just don't want to see the guy get left out of WrestleMania.

I just hope that the Dudleyz angle last night does indeed head to a match with RVD & Kane at WrestleMania.

However, I still have a sickening feeling that it'll just lead to the Dudleyz turning back to face on RAW on Monday, turning on Morley & Storm, and leading to Dudleyz v. Storm & Morley at 'Mania, with RVD & Kane watching on their couches at home. Vince seems to love fucking with RVD (not in the literal sense, of course).



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OK, I don't watch NWA, I don't see a need to, and I go on the net less and less these days to read about wrestling (I wonder why....) So can somebody please explain to me this Russo/Piper thing everybody is talking about?
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