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The W - Movies & TV - Lost: The Incident (Page 2)
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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
I wrote this up on my Facebook Notes and I apologize if some of this infringes on topics already mentioned in the thread.

On the subject of Rose and Bernard as Adam and Eve, it's a neat theory, except that I think those skeletons in the cave were more than 3 decades old. Which isn't to say it won't be Rose and Bernard after all, but the writers'd have to fudge things a little. Which is more than possible.

Lost 5x16 - "The Incident, Parts 1 and 2"

I'm not even sure where to begin. There was a lot to process I could barely wrap my head around it all last night. In random order as I think of things:

I guess I'll start with Jacob. The conceit that Jacob has been walking around the real world visiting each of the main characters at various points in their lives was a lot to swallow. Any other show, I'd reject that notion instantly, but Lost gets a pass because this is what they do and they do it well. I had the hardest time with Jacob being the one to spring Hurley from prison and waiting for him in a cab with a guitar. But the lamest Jacob visit had to be his hanging around the corner in the hospital eavesdropping on Jack arguing with Christian. "Hey fella, one of these candy bars yours'?"

I loved all the callbacks to the pilot episode:

1) Jacob and The Other Guy on the beach watching the ship. Jacob in white and The Other Guy wearing black. Black and white, just like Locke and Walt, when Locke taught Walt backgammon on the beach. Is that ship the Black Rock or a Spanish vessel? Did a Spanish vessel bring Richard Alpert to the Island (because wasn't the Black Rock marooned by a storm?) Plus Jacob was eating fresh stone fire-cooked fish. I wanted some.

2) The secret origin of where Jack learned to count to five to manage his fear, taught to him by Christian when Jack bungled a surgery. Jack to Kate, "Do you remember when you stitched me up?" Hell yes, I do, Jack. That was The Moment for me. That little character beat in the pilot is when I realized Lost was the real deal and that I was in for the long haul. I can trace it to that exact moment.

As everyone was gung ho towards setting off the nuke, Miles is the guy who was making sense (and was ignored): "Did anyone stop to think that Jack setting off the nuke is the Incident you're trying to prevent?"

I also liked when Miles called Sawyer LaFleur. That conversation could have gone longer.
"There ain't no LaFleur anymore."
"Right. Except in the three years I've known you, I've almost exclusively called you LaFleur."
"Well, LaFleur's dead. Just call me Sawyer."
"Sawyer? Who the hell's Sawyer?"

The comment Jacob made to Locke about finding a "loophole" is very interesting. [Edit: I LOVE the Loophole theory about the cabin suggested in this thread!] Is this John Locke or ain't it? Or is it The Other Guy. Or is John Locke the reincarnation of The Other Guy? Is Jacob dead? Why did Jacob visit Elana in the hospital? It's all very confusing.

A year ago, it seemed like Lost boiled down to two supervillains, Widmore and Ben, battling for control of the Island with the castaways caught in the middle. Now it seems like Widmore and Ben were dueling over who gets to be the Leader who kowtows to Jacob, whom Locke just had killed. So Locke wasn't positioning to be the Leader of the Others (and really, who'd want that job?), he wanted to be the Big Man on the Island. If that is John Locke after all. I don't care if his corpse tumbled out of the metal box. I think that is Locke. Kind of.

This was Mr. Burns' favorite episode of Lost because of Juliet and Kate's unpredictable changes of heart. Women.

I don't know what to think about the death of Juliet. I feel like she'd actually outlived her usefulness as a character so I wasn't broken up about her taking the long drop into the hole and setting off the nuke. Still, she was one of the best characters on the show, although largely marginalized this season as Sawyer's love interest. Her motivation for her trademark change of heart was a little soft for me; dramatically it was all about losing Sawyer, but Juliet is someone who hated being on the Island so it makes sense she'd want to change things. She could have taken Sawyer's word that he'd still be true to her even with Kate around. The whole thing seems irrational. Seemed like a big excuse to have macho, rugged, Sawyer cry over his woman to make the ladies at home swoon even more for him.

And it all comes right back to the Jack-Kate-Sawyer triangle. Hurm.

I liked the castaways' assault on the Swan. For a bunch of random people who crashed on an Island, they've turn into a crack jungle commando unit. Someone, maybe Phil, should have yelled out, "Look out! There's a spinal surgeon with a nuke strapped to his back coming right for us!"

The best part of the episode for me was seeing Rose and Bernard again. Those two are great and they really figured out Island paradise happiness: stay away from Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, anyone from Oceanic, anyone from Dharma, anyone from The Others, and anyone else. Just a happy married couple and their stray dog enjoying their peaceful time on their perfect Island getaway. Rose was dead on, "You people keep looking for ways to shoot at each other."

Of course, maybe none of this ever happened. Maybe history was changed after all. Maybe season 6 of the show is the plane landing safe and sound and all the characters from season one are back hanging out in LA. Island, what Island? Maybe that's the happy ending.


(edited by John Orquiola on 14.5.09 0831)
CxMorgado
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Since: 21.1.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.86
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
      This is of course the same guy in black who becomes Not-Locke. Who broke the binding? Who knows?


    Pretty sure it was Hurley when he and Locke encountered the cabin at night.


Yes! I knew that wiped spot seemed familiar!

This totally explains why Locke heard the "help me" when he was in the cabin: it was where the Nemesis was being contained, and as we've seen, Locke is the Nemesis' chosen "host". A circle of runes/spells/ash whatever is a very traditional fantasy story method of containing/controlling an evil force, and it almost always goes wrong when someone accidentally wipes out a portion of the circle (see: volume one of Sandman, one of those Forgotten Realms books I read as a kid, etc).



Biddip-bo!
wmatistic
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Since: 2.2.04
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Regarding Jacob visiting people in the past, I remembered reading a day or so ago a note at DarkUFO..

"This episode is going to be very "touching"(Damon says this might be a play at words, where touching may not necessarily mean emotional)"

Also Juliet set off the bomb, I guess, which even if the explosion is contained in a way would release radiation. Perhaps it's that radiation that prevents women from having babies and thus becomes the reason the Others recruit her?

(edited by wmatistic on 14.5.09 1000)
Parts Unknown
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Since: 2.1.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
    Originally posted by CxMorgado
      Originally posted by Matt Tracker
        Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
        This is of course the same guy in black who becomes Not-Locke. Who broke the binding? Who knows?


      Pretty sure it was Hurley when he and Locke encountered the cabin at night.


    Yes! I knew that wiped spot seemed familiar!

    This totally explains why Locke heard the "help me" when he was in the cabin: it was where the Nemesis was being contained, and as we've seen, Locke is the Nemesis' chosen "host". A circle of runes/spells/ash whatever is a very traditional fantasy story method of containing/controlling an evil force, and it almost always goes wrong when someone accidentally wipes out a portion of the circle (see: volume one of Sandman, one of those Forgotten Realms books I read as a kid, etc).


You've got it. It was "Samuel" as many people are calling him today contained in the cabin and Locke was (for the millionth time in his life) duped into unwittingly setting the evil loose, resulting in the death of the beautiful light he first encountered in the jungle.

Once again, Locke got PLAYED hard, and this time it's huge.



John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
Awesome theory about Locke becoming a vessel for Samuel to escape confinement. But since Ben lead Locke to the cabin, was Ben in on it? Did Ben know about Samuel (better than calling him The Other Guy)?

The other thing I liked about the shootout at the Swan was the VW van barrelling in, guns blazing. Last time a VW bus barrelled in guns blazing was the end of Back to the Future. Getting back to the future, of course, is what Jack and friends were trying to achieve.

(edited by John Orquiola on 14.5.09 1045)
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Awesome theory about Locke becoming a vessel for Samuel to escape confinement. But since Ben lead Locke to the cabin, was Ben in on it? Did Ben know about Samuel (better than calling him The Other Guy)?

    The other thing I liked about the shootout at the Swan was the VW van barrelling in, guns blazing. Last time a VW bus barrelled in guns blazing was the end of Back to the Future. Getting back to the future, of course, is what Jack and friends were trying to achieve.



It's also the second time Hurley has driven a DharmaBus to the rescue. Last time, he ran over the Others.

Did no one else almost collapse into tears when Sun found Charlie's ring?

No? I'm it? OK.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Super Shane Spear
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Since: 2.1.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.40
I personally like Esau over Samuel as far as the internet naming goes.

The problem I have with either Hurley or Locke breaking the seal is that somebody was running around as other people (like Christian, the horse, or Dave) before either of them came across the cabin.

Now that we've explored the statue situation, I would say the next important issue to address would be Libby's involvement in this whole thing. There's a huge piece missing in her backstory because she was the one to personally allow Desmond to the island to crash 815. Additionally, she saved Hurley from suicide. So she had her hands pretty deep into the game's destiny.


(edited by Super Shane Spear on 14.5.09 1231)


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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    I would say the next important issue to address would be Libby's involvement in this whole thing. There's a huge piece missing in her backstory because she was the one to personally allow Desmond to the island to crash 815. Additionally, she saved Hurley from suicide. So she had her hands pretty deep into the game's destiny.
    (edited by Super Shane Spear on 14.5.09 1231)


Libby. Points for remembering Libby.

My favorite quote of the episode was probably from Sawyer:

"I don't speak Destiny. A man does something 'cause he wants something out of it."

Just half a season ago, Jack didn't speak Destiny either.
wmatistic
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Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
The writers have said many times that libby is done and meaningless to the overall story. So we won't be getting any more on her backstory.
BigDaddyLoco
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.14
What was with the Juliette flashback? It was the only one that was different than all the rest.

The fight scene looked like an old A-Team scene.

I should rewatch the episode, because I missed a lot of things.
Matt Tracker
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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.75
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    What was with the Juliette flashback? It was the only one that was different than all the rest.


It provided the context for her comments to Sawyer. She quoted her mom about people being in love and yet not together. I think this was the only childhood flashback with Jacob.



"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
emma
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Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.39
Vincent!!!

Well that certainly gives us stuff to work on til the next season starts!

I haven't decided if Jacob is a good guy or a bad guy. Or whether he just "is".

I'm going to have to study on that dialog at the beginning between Jacob & Dark-Shirt-Guy -- there's a lot going on in there. There's definitely a reason that we didn't learn Dark-Shirt-Guy's real name.

I wonder if the real-Locke corpse is still wearing Christian's shoes. That whole thing, including grandpa going awol conveniently with the shoes, was more bizarre than just "being a proxy for Christian's corpse".

So in 1977 Ellie was the Leader. Nice. Shut up & sit down, Charles. That's certainly not the way Charles was acting when Ben kidnapped Alex rather than killing Rousseau.

We didn't see anything of Desmond & Penny, but pretty much everybody else (who's still at least sort-of alive) was represented.

Good way to end a season!
StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
    Originally posted by Matt Tracker
      Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      What was with the Juliette flashback? It was the only one that was different than all the rest.


    It provided the context for her comments to Sawyer. She quoted her mom about people being in love and yet not together. I think this was the only childhood flashback with Jacob.

I definitely thought there had to be some kind of significance to her flashback being completely different from the rest (i.e., Jacob physically touching everyone else in his/her flashback). I guess her plummeting to her doom (sort of) might just be that significance. And speaking of which, I lost track of time at the end of the episode. So when she set off the plutonium core and the white LOST title card came up I screamed "NO!!!!!!" at the top of my lungs, completely caught off guard. I was definitely not ready to wait another 7 months to see what happened next.

There are just too many things going on in this episode. You could probably write a short bestselling book about it.

I was very confused by the opening because, as someone else mentioned in this thread, Jacob and Esau's dialogue was too modern for the 1800s. But at the same time, we clearly were supposed to believe that ship was the Black Rock. Maybe since Jacob and Esau are (seemingly) all powerful, they've figured out the whole time travel thing, so the concept of "anachronism" doesn't exist for them.

So what's will all the ancient Egyptian imagery on this show? We have the four-toed statute that we've finally been able to identify, but now we also have a bunch of hieroglyphics, presumably done by Jacob's hand.

I'm so glad they mentioned that damned guitar case Hurley has been lugging around. It started to bother me last week since I don't think we've ever seen Hurley play guitar. Do you think there's really a guitar in there or is it something else?

I love that the old rickety cabin where we thought Jacob lived actually started out as Rose and Bernard's island getaway. I was SUPER excited to see Vincent again. These are all signs that I'm madly obsessed with this show and will be super depressed in about 12.5 months...

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Since: 3.1.02
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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.60
    Originally posted by StingArmy
    I'm so glad they mentioned that damned guitar case Hurley has been lugging around. It started to bother me last week since I don't think we've ever seen Hurley play guitar. Do you think there's really a guitar in there or is it something else?


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CxMorgado
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Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.86
    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    I personally like Esau over Samuel as far as the internet naming goes.

    The problem I have with either Hurley or Locke breaking the seal is that somebody was running around as other people (like Christian, the horse, or Dave) before either of them came across the cabin.

    Now that we've explored the statue situation, I would say the next important issue to address would be Libby's involvement in this whole thing. There's a huge piece missing in her backstory because she was the one to personally allow Desmond to the island to crash 815. Additionally, she saved Hurley from suicide. So she had her hands pretty deep into the game's destiny.


    (edited by Super Shane Spear on 14.5.09 1231)


My thing with calling the Nemesis Esau is that even if you try to use the bare bones of that story, it doesn't fit with the Jacob/Nemesis relationship on the show. Biblical Esau forgave his brother, he never got around to actually trying to kill him. I know it doesn't matter or anything, it just that "murder my brother" is such a small part of their story that it doesn't work as a place holder name for me. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see them throw Stephen King a bone and name Lost's Dark Man after Randall Flagg...

Traditionally, whoever has a demon/entity/whatever trapped in a seal/spell circle/whatever is able to control it. So I suppose one could theorize that if the Nemesis is Smokey, he was having to do Jacob's bidding while trapped in the cabin. Or, alternatively, Smokey just has to do what it's told no matter which master is telling it? Or, alternatively to the alternative, the white light Locke said he saw when the smoke monster grabbed him is a separate entity, and responsible for the other apparitions through out the series?

2010 needs to get here fast, I keep giving myself headaches.



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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30

Maybe they are Cain and Abel and Abel is just using the name Jacob.

It could be like the DC/Vertigo Cain and Abel where Cain repeatedly kills Abel, but Abel always comes back.





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Since: 1.4.03
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#37 Posted on
Just wondering, but when Non-Locke was leading the people to go see Jacob, what was the name of the song playing? I believe the song was used before in the show but just wondering if their is an actual name to it?



"I shall finish the game"
Super Shane Spear
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Since: 2.1.02
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.40
    Originally posted by y4j1981
    Just wondering, but when Non-Locke was leading the people to go see Jacob, what was the name of the song playing? I believe the song was used before in the show but just wondering if their is an actual name to it?


Here's the thing...on the soundtracks various themes are used and re-used. Kind of like the Final Fantasy OSTs if you're into those things.

The best version I think I can find the about 15 seconds of the opening of "The Only Pebble in the Jungle" and a darker 40 second version is on "An Other Dark Agenda"

Both are on the Season 3 soundtrack.

Check That: The best version on the Season 3 soundtrack is the aptly titled "The Good Shepard."

(edited by Super Shane Spear on 15.5.09 1317)

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EddieBurkett
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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.20
    Originally posted by CxMorgado
    (see: volume one of Sandman, one of those Forgotten Realms books I read as a kid, etc).


    Originally posted by odessasteps
    It could be like the DC/Vertigo Cain and Abel where Cain repeatedly kills Abel, but Abel always comes back.


Another sorta-Sandman reference that I loved was the episode starting off with Jacob weaving. It felt VERY reminiscent of the beginning of the Kindly Ones. And of course, we got to see Jacob's thread get cut...

I still need to watch this again.



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Since: 6.1.02
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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
    Originally posted by Kevintripod
    I got the impression that Jacob and loop-hole guy is a God versus Devil or Angel versus Demon type of scenario.




I've read one theory like this. They also pointed out there are 12 key players left and they could be symbolic of the 12 apostles. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sun, Hurley, Ben, Sayid, Miles, Juliette, Jin, Desmond, and Lapedis. I guess Ben would be Judas. But who knows if all these people are still around post blast or if somebody else comes back post blast.

It also works on a level because Jacob (or God) is giving people free will (but I guess whether that symbolism works depends on if you believe in free will) on the island while Non-Locke actually possesses people and forces them to do things or tricks them into doing something.

Then again, even if this story has no religious symbolism it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion with anything that is good vs. evil.



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