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The W - Movies & TV - Lost 5x7 - "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"
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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 176 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.28
Great episode.

"Jeremy Bentham?"
"He was an English philosopher. Your parents had a sense of humor when they named you. Why can't I?"

Maybe I'm a gullible sap but I'm starting to think Charles Widmore isn't such a bad guy. He has good points about what a lying, manipulative scumbag Ben Linus is. I'd like to have Widmore and Linus meet in some sort of debate or Island town hall meeting so we could hear both sides of who's really trying to do what's best for our precious Island.

When Matthew Abbadon set up the wheelchair for Locke/Bentham, I was reminded that the greatest rivalry in the history of Lost is John Locke vs. a wheelchair.

Even Addadon, who presumably has never met Walt before, had to remark at how big Walt is now. And his voice is deep. Walt's lucky this is Lost and not The Wire because he'd be working a corner instead of going to private school.

As lovable as he is, in his own way, Hurley is the most frustrating, infuriating guy to talk to on the show when he's in his crazy mode and you're trying to convince him of something.

I can't believe Locke didn't play the surefire, never-fail, guaranteed to get Kate on the next plane to crash on the Island trump card: "Kate, when I left the Island, it seemed like Sawyer and Juliet were about to get it on."

Let me get this straight: Ben had men watching the Oceanic Six. Widmore had men watching the Oceanic Six. Were these men watching each other? Did Ben and Widmore have men watching the men watching the Oceanic Six?

All Locke ever wants to hear is someone to tell him that he's important. It might even mean more to Locke to hear he's important than to actually be important.

Ben talking Locke out of suicide so he could kill Locke himself was all kinds of fucked up, even for Ben.

Locke: "Eh, it's a wash from when my dad threw me out of a window."

But Ben found out Jin was alive and that Locke knows about Mrs. Hawking, so you know, ends justify the means. Maybe in his second life Locke will remember to stop trusting Ben, especially when Ben's acting all "shh shh, it's gonna be all right" super concerned.

I wish Commissioner Gordon from Batman Forever could have found Locke's hanging body after Ben was done setting the scene: "Yup. Definitely suicide."

Cesar the Random Middle Eastern Man just got dropped into this show. As confused as he is, he might be better off not having all the crazy shit that's been going on explained to him.

Matthew Abbadon, we hardly knew ye.
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I liked Sayid's line to Locke: "Who's manipulating you?"

Better get comfortable, Sayid, it's going to be a while.



odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 188 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

here's my big question from tonight's show:

Was Ben always going to kill John, or did he only kill him because he knew about Eloise Hawking?

Lots of great stuff tonight.

More proof of why I hate jack and kate, too.




Mark Coale
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CxMorgado
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Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 364 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.86
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    here's my big question from tonight's show:

    Was Ben always going to kill John, or did he only kill him because he knew about Eloise Hawking?

    Lots of great stuff tonight.

    More proof of why I hate jack and kate, too.



The impression I got, and this is in part from them revealing just when Sayid was working for Ben (since iirc Ben never mentioned going back to the island to Sayid), is that Ben actually had no clue whatsoever how to get back to the island. So he only stopped John from committing suicide so he could find out what he knew, since Locke trying to get everyone to go back means he had a way back. So yeah, Ben was always going to kill him.

Jack and Kate are dicks. At least Hurley has an excuse.



Biddip-bo!
StingArmy
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Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 14 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    here's my big question from tonight's show:

    Was Ben always going to kill John, or did he only kill him because he knew about Eloise Hawking?

It seemed to me that Ben wanted to keep John alive because he needed info from John on how to get back to the island. Once he got Jin's wedding band as well as the info that Eloise Hawking knew how to get back to the island, he could kill John because he was of no use to him anymore. I could be way off, but that was my initial impression.

For the longest time I've given Ben the benefit of the doubt. Even killing Lt. Daniels-- er, Matthew Abbadon, could be forgiveable because he could have legitimately been a bad guy. Even Hurley seemed to think so, for what it's worth. But murdering John, the most tragic and pathetic character in TV history, and covering it up to make it look like a suicide is just down right EVIL. And it's even more dastardly when you remember he acted like he knew nothing about the "suicide."
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Cesar the Random Middle Eastern Man just got dropped into this show. As confused as he is, he might be better off not having all the crazy shit that's been going on explained to him.

The actor is Moroccan or something, but judging by his accent and by the fact that his name is Cesar I'm going to peg him as being of Mexican (see, e.g., Millan, Chavez) or Cuban (see, e.g., Romero) descent until I hear otherwise.

- StingArmy
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.50
Ben tried once already to kill Locke, but because he was overcome with rage, he didn't realize that he *couldn't* kill Locke. When Ben calmed down, he of course realized that the island wouldn't let Locke die. When Ben went to strangle Locke tonight, it was only with the knowledge that he COULD kill Locke. Somehow, it was dropping Eloise's name that allowed this. Christian had to pass the knowledge to Locke who then had to pass the knowledge to Ben. After that, Locke's work as a living person was done.

y4j1981
Kolbasz








Since: 1.4.03
From: Dale City, Virginia

Since last post: 2046 days
Last activity: 1986 days
#7 Posted on
Can someone fill me in a small part that I missed?:

I saw up to when Locke was in the car accident after the shooting. Then I had to step out. When I cam back in John was saying Eloise Hawking had Ben killed him and made it look like suicide. What happened in between?



"I shall finish the game"
yamcha
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Since: 21.6.07
From: ....here?

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.82
Him trying to get Jack to go back and telling him his dad says Hi. then Jack telling him he isn't special.

(edited by yamcha on 25.2.09 2300)
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 188 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by y4j1981
    Can someone fill me in a small part that I missed?:

    I saw up to when Locke was in the car accident after the shooting. Then I had to step out. When I cam back in John was saying Eloise Hawking had Ben killed him and made it look like suicide. What happened in between?


Locke ended up in Jack's hospital. Jack told Locke off. Locke said that Christian told him to say hello to his son. Jack left. Cut to Locke in his hotel room, getting ready to hang himself when Ben shows up.

---

I know think Ben and Widmore are both heels.



Mark Coale
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Super Shane Spear
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.26
The season three finale, Through the Looking Glass, is now a must-see companion piece to tonight's episode. Now that we have enough of the pieces of Jack's Oceanic Six life, we can fully appreciate the trauma that John Locke's re-appearance and eventual death had on him.
thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 1 day
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
See, but the interesting thing there is Jack told Kate (and us) that he'd been flying A Lot of times - every weekend, IIRC - in hopes of recrashing on the island.

That Sydney flight Ben referred to couldn't have been his first because Jack wouldn't have had time for all those flights. The conversation surely put the idea of Jack's Father back in his head for when he was ranting in the hospital on pain killers and probably totally pushed him over the edge, but Jack had to start flying months earlier and there's no reason why. Yet?

There's obviously a few more gaps to fill - why did Sayid leave Santo Domingo and come back to LA for Hurley? He had stopped being a super spy long before.

I totally agree with the idea that both Charles and Ben are evil here. The chessboard visual from the early episodes still works, but just that those two are playing everyone else as pawns.



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Since: 6.11.02

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#12 Posted on
    Originally posted by StingArmy
      Originally posted by odessasteps


      It seemed to me that Ben wanted to keep John alive because he needed info from John on how to get back to the island. Once he got Jin's wedding band as well as the info that Eloise Hawking knew how to get back to the island, he could kill John because he was of no use to him anymore. I could be way off, but that was my initial impression.



      - StingArmy


    I think that Ben knew that John had info that Ben needed to get back to the island, but also knew that if he killed him and brought him back to the islandthat he would be reincarnated. Ben also knew that John would not take Ben with him. So, Ben killed John after John told him what he needed to know so that there was no possibility of John telling Charles Widmore.
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 3 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.50
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    See, but the interesting thing there is Jack told Kate (and us) that he'd been flying A Lot of times - every weekend, IIRC - in hopes of recrashing on the island.

    That Sydney flight Ben referred to couldn't have been his first because Jack wouldn't have had time for all those flights. The conversation surely put the idea of Jack's Father back in his head for when he was ranting in the hospital on pain killers and probably totally pushed him over the edge, but Jack had to start flying months earlier and there's no reason why. Yet?

The answer is in Jack's beard.

Two possible resolutions:

1)Ben only implied this was the first time Jack booked a flight (to make John feel that he was not a failure). Jack could have been flying for a while. A clean-shaven Jack had a vision of his dead father off-Island. Christian could have appeared to Jack more than once and spooked Jack into wanting to come back.

or

2)Jack tells Ben at the funeral home that Locke's visit was "about a month ago." This is supported by the bird's nest sitting on Jack's face. He could have flown a lot during that time (even if it was only on Fridays, he could have flown 4-6 times).
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 188 days
Last activity: 154 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
http://tinyurl.com/c2et3w

new Lost column

(edited by odessasteps on 26.2.09 0231)


Mark Coale
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EddieBurkett
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Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 3 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.55
I'm glad the show confirmed that Walt did need to go back. I have a feeling the writers are saving any major involvement on his part until next season, when he won't have any more breaks to grow any bigger.

I was talking with my friend last week and came up with this season's crazy-wacky-I-have-no-evidence-and-may-not-believe-it-but-I'm-putting-it-out-there theory: That Abbadon was a time-traveled Walt. The way that Abbadon kept calling John "Mr. Locke" and then conveniently left right as Walt was showing up seemed surprisingly supportive of that theory. (Didn't Walt always call him Mr. Locke back in season 1, and Abbadon would have left Walt and John because his memories of the encounter didn't place a tall black guy there...) But then Walt directly calls him John and Ben offs Abbadon so I'm still considering this theory to be crazy wacky. At least until we see Walt do more on the island.

I love how Abbadon defined himself as a driver and the person who gets people to where they need to be. Beautiful play on words.

I'm very confused why Ben would kill Locke in such a duplicitious manner. I'll give Ben the credit of knowing that Locke needed to die. So maybe, as pointed out, he was waiting for certain information before doing the job himself. I also think that Ben knew that Locke couldn't do it himself... the island wouldn't accept suicide. Either Ben knew that Locke's death would only be pure enough for the island if Locke died wanting to live. So he had to cheer John up for the act to work. But the way Ben told Locke that he'd miss him... he clearly didn't expect Locke to be resurrected at any point. I wonder if Hawking is the one who tells him that part of it. I know Ben is a pathological liar, but I'll give the writers the credit of Ben being entirely truthful when he thinks that no one else is around. (Just like Juliet's "I hate you." after recording her report at the end of D.o.C.)

I don't think Jack and Kate are dicks as much as they were they two who tried the hardest to buy into the lie and put what happened on the island behind them. Don't forget that their island experiences were just 3 months out of the last three years of their lives. Jack had assumed a role of alcoholic doctor and Kate had assumed the role of Aaron's mother, and they were so entrenched it that, they weren't going to give Locke much chance to make his case. I like that Locke figured out that Christian was Jack's dad.

I also liked Jack's beard as chronometer.

Interesting that Widmore gives Locke the list, and it doesn't contain Desmond. When does Widmore find out that Desmond left the island? When does Penny disappear from Widmore's radar? (Did he have a man on the Searcher before Des and Penny made it home?)

What are the odds that Helen isn't dead and that Widmore had the tombstone faked to keep Locke on task? I refuse to believe that Widmore is a good guy, because he had Alex, an innocent, killed. I want to believe that Ben is a bad guy because of the way he murdered Locke, but I think he had his reasons. Ben almost seems like, to continue the chess game metaphor, he's playing all his moves from a pre-defined script. Like a classic chess gambit and he's following all the steps. I wonder if that's why he got so angry with Widmore for breaking the rules. Killing Alex wasn't part of their chess match, and now Ben has to deviate from his script for revenge. The way both of them are acting, it almost feels like they should be working together against everyone else, but the confrontation in Widmore's bedroom would preclude that. We need to know more about Hawking's allegiances to put everything into perspective.




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Since: 26.2.09
From: Humpty Doo, Australia

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
I'm still wondering something about Walt, though: did he have to change his name when he returned home and re-entered society a few years ago? With all the media hoopla we've seen over the Oceanic Six, I'm just curious how Walt slipped past everyone's radar. Or was he not an official passenger on the original Oceanic 815, because he was a minor? Or was there an early detail explaining this, when he was transitioned from his mother to Michael?

Also, I'm thinking that the supposedly "staged" Oceanic 815 crash site that was found at the bottom of the ocean wasn't perpetrated by either Charles Widmore or Ben Linus. I'm thinking someone, somewhere (probably Faraday) screws up the Rules of Time Travel and we end up with a divergent timeline that includes a crashed Oceanic 815 in September 2004 that never makes the island.



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Whitebacon
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.55
Walt and Michael had to change their names and not acknowledge anything about the crash, right?
John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 176 days
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.28
    Originally posted by dWs
    Also, I'm thinking that the supposedly "staged" Oceanic 815 crash site that was found at the bottom of the ocean wasn't perpetrated by either Charles Widmore or Ben Linus. I'm thinking someone, somewhere (probably Faraday) screws up the Rules of Time Travel and we end up with a divergent timeline that includes a crashed Oceanic 815 in September 2004 that never makes the island.


Divergent timeline? It's possible but yikes, I hope not. The show is screwy enough as it is without intoducing an alternate timeline to muck things up.

As for the fake plane crash, sure, this is Lost and all, but I think we have to take SOME things at face value. Both Ben and Widmore (through someone on the Freighter, I forget who) have stated that the fake plane crash underwater was indeed staged, and each blamed the other's faction for it. Now, that doesn't disprove your idea; both camps could THINK the other staged a plane crash. But wasn't there also 300 graves robbed to play the part of the Oceanic 815 passengers in the fake plane crash at some point? I'm sure there was.

By the way, Charles Widmore is 71 years old if he was 17 in 1954 and nothing screwy time travel-wise happened to him. Why does his age matter? I don't know.



(edited by John Orquiola on 26.2.09 1120)
samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 432 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.29
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    Divergent timeline? It's possible but yikes, I hope not. The show is screwy enough as it is without intoducing an alternate timeline to muck things up.


This time travel stuff is stupid enough as it is. If any hint of a multiverse is ever hinted at, I'm no longer going to be looking forward to Lost every week.

This was a good episode, but didn't quite live up to the expectations I had when I found out that it would be a Locke post-island episode. I'm not sure what I thought was going to happen, but I just thought it would be more substantial. Based on what I've heard, I've got the same expectations for next week's episode, and more confidence that it will live up to them.



Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.24
The extended commercial breaks ABC is running during Lost is just killing any flow that the show has.

So, are there any guesses on why the Oceanic 5 are the only ones who got zapped off the plane and not even Locke and Ben? I was kind of surprised to see that the plane actually went down, I had assumed just the important ones had been sucked off it. I guess it adds more Red Shirts for body count purposes.

I'm also trying to remember why Ben left the island in the first place and can't remember the reason. Did he just want to move the island and got kicked out as a result?
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I concur (having said as much in the other thread...) Of course, this is probably one of those cases where the more you stare at the picture, the more your mind starts to make them look alike. But I'm thinking the females look the most alike.
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Related threads: What questions are still there on "Lost"? - Lost 5x6 - "316" - Lost 5x5 - "This Place Is Death" - More...
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