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The W - Movies & TV - Lost 5x5 - "This Place Is Death"
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John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 30 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.98
Poor Charlotte. I'll miss her. She died the way she lived - flat on her back spouting gibberish.

I liked when Daniel tried to assuage Charlotte's fears by telling her he talked to Desmond at the hatch and told him to find his mother. "Desmond, eh? Did I meet Desmond?" The Island and I will just never see eye to eye on its policy of killing off the hot chicks stranded on its shores.

Speaking of which, I also liked the sexist 1988 blond Frenchman when Nadine went missing: "This is why you don't bring women. She's probably chasing a butterfly." Yeah! Or she saw a horsey or something. Blond Frenchman also had the understatement of the series after he got dragged by the smoke monster into the hole: "I'm hurt!" You don't say, what with your buddy scratching his ass with your dismembered left arm.

Loved the bro-hug Sawyer gave Jin. They were so happy to see each other. Give it up for the 815 Originals.

It's about time Ben finally cracked and yelled at someone, in this case Sun and Jack. "For the last fucking time, you idiots, I'm not the bad guy! Charles Widmore's the bad guy!" No one works harder for less appreciation than Ben. Seemed like Ben finally received information he wasn't aware of prior when Desmond asked if they're all at the church to find Faraday's mother.

Does Ji Yeon have to come back to the island too? How "alive" was she when Sun left? What's the Island's policy on unborn fetuses?

Christian: "Say hello to my son."
Locke: "Who's your son?"

Christian should have said Sayid. That would have blown Locke's mind.
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CRZ
Big Brother
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Since: 9.12.01
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
Can I say I FINALLY figured out an anagram all on my own? (Mostly because I'm afraid to go back and see if somebody already said it.) The CANTON-RAINIER sign seen repeatedly on that van unscrambled to REINCARNATION. I think. So there you go.



thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Can I say I FINALLY figured out an anagram all on my own? (Mostly because I'm afraid to go back and see if somebody already said it.) The CANTON-RAINIER sign seen repeatedly on that van unscrambled to REINCARNATION. I think. So there you go.


I don't like the sound of that.

Someone's really going to have their mind blown when they go to dig that spiral well and there's a rope already in the ground. Or maybe that's why they dig it?



thecubsfan.com - luchablog
StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 122 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Can I say I FINALLY figured out an anagram all on my own? (Mostly because I'm afraid to go back and see if somebody already said it.) The CANTON-RAINIER sign seen repeatedly on that van unscrambled to REINCARNATION. I think. So there you go.

Well done. As soon as I saw the name on the van I figured it had to be meaningful in some way (you know, since like EVERYTHING on this show is). I always felt Locke would HAVE to be brought back to life somehow, and that anagram makes me a little more confident about that.

Daniel was an old man when Charlotte was a child as suspected by many (myself included). She remembers that but it doesn't seem like she remembers him being anyone especially important to her, so I guess he's not her father after all? Also, Eloise Hawking = Daniel's mommy = Desmond's jeweler = someone else important??

This Robert character that tried to off Danielle, should we remember his name from before? He's Alex's father, after all, so that makes him at least mildly important. And I wonder if the sickness Danielle has been rambling about for nearly 2 decades is her mates' obsession with the island. Pretty interesting to see that they didn't necessarily die of the sickness but rather probably died by her hand (or gun).

So, does Locke think that Christian Shephard is Jacob? Neither man ever says his name, and it seems like Christian is trying to pretend he's Jacob ("when you came looking for me" etc.). Also, Christian saying he "can't" help Locke up seemed somewhat significant to me: that tells me he's a ghost or a figment of the imagination and not reincarnated or undead.

I've missed Smokey. And Jin, too. Glad to have them back!

- StingArmy
odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35

new column

http://tinyurl.com/b59jtb

sad to see Charlotte go. I thought Daniel would be her constant.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
The Affirmation, Baby Blog
Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.63
I think there's more to this 'sickness' than is being let on. It seemed like Danielle was the crazy one for suspecting Robert, but then Robert immediately turned the gun on his pregnant wife/girlfriend, so he obviously wasn't playing with a full deck. There is zero chance that that was actually Montand calling to them from inside the temple, given that minus an arm, he'd be passed out or screaming in pain. My guess is that was the Smoke Monster imitating the dead as it did with Yemi and others.

Christian identified himself to Locke as Jacob's "representative" last season, so Locke knows that Christian isn't The Man himself. It also begs the question of why Jacob can't present himself to Locke if in fact Locke is supposed to be the Island'a latest chosen one. Methinks it means that Locke is once again being played for a fool.

Does Locke moving the wheel mean that the time-jumps have stopped, and the group is now stuck in whatever year they most recently flashed to? I would guess this has to be the case, since if even Sawyer is getting nosebleeds now, everyone is going to be dead pretty quickly if the flashing continues. Maybe they're stuck in late 70's/early 80's DHARMA and now have to use the wheel to get back to 2005, so we'll see more of that scenario in the season premiere of Daniel at the in-progress Orchid station.



Kirk, crackers are a family food. Happy families. Maybe single people eat crackers, we don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know. It's a market we can do without.
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.55
I enjoyed Christian chastising Locke for listening to Ben.

I kept thinking they wouldn't kill Charlotte until we got her backstory. Then we got her deathbed confession about her childhood, and Faraday's attempts to change history...

I like how Locke's death allowed him to not violate his promise to Jin about telling Sun he was dead.

The well closing up with the rope in the ground was cool. Locke's legs might take the most abuse of anything on this show.

Once the smoke monster grabbed Montand I was cringing because I knew that losing his arm was going to be painful. I need to go back and watch the Season 1 finale because apparently the Temple is in the Dark Territory. Nice job of showing everything play out exactly how Rousseau described. (Except for the disappearing Korean dude. She must have assumed he was an Other.)

I like Sayid's warning to Ben and Jack as he walked off.

I can't wait for Hawking to start trying to explain everything.



You believe me, don't you?
Please believe what I just said...
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 12 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.81
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Christian identified himself to Locke as Jacob's "representative" last season, so Locke knows that Christian isn't The Man himself. It also begs the question of why Jacob can't present himself to Locke if in fact Locke is supposed to be the Island'a latest chosen one. Methinks it means that Locke is once again being played for a fool.
IIRC, he also told Locke, "You may call me Christian." I've been trying to wrap my brain around why it's Christian appearing to people. Locke wouldn't know Christian, so why? Sawyer, Jack, Anna-Lucia, and Claire - they would have recognized him, but I'd think there's a reason why outside of "John Terry is a good actor and we wanted to find a reason for him to be on the show somehow after his character died."

It didn't occur to me until Desmond saw Faraday's mum that he'd recognize her. There's always so much about this show, the minutia, to remember that I always enjoy when something hits me at some moment causing a "Yeah, forgot about that!" Sort of like how I'd almost forgotten that Charlotte spoke Korean. Nice line by Daniel, "Are you fluent in any other languages?"

    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    It's about time Ben finally cracked and yelled at someone, in this case Sun and Jack. "For the last fucking time, you idiots, I'm not the bad guy! Charles Widmore's the bad guy!" No one works harder for less appreciation than Ben. Seemed like Ben finally received information he wasn't aware of prior when Desmond asked if they're all at the church to find Faraday's mother.
Ha, Sun or Jack should have said, "Didn't you just underhandedly hire a lawyer to take Aaron from Kate? Didn't you terrorize us on an island for months? Didn't you send your people out to kill folks and kidnap kids? Um....that's kinda bad-guy-ish, to me!" Agreed though, I love watching Ben's face when something is revealed that he didn't previously know - which is rare.
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    Nice job of showing everything play out exactly how Rousseau described. (Except for the disappearing Korean dude. She must have assumed he was an Other.)

That's because the disappearing Korea dude didn't happen when she originally told the story. Jin didn't show up in Danielle's past until he jumped back in time. If Danielle was still alive, she would have had a new "memory" of Jin created, that she wouldn't realize until her present time (cf. Desmond's dream memory of meeting Faraday).


    Christian should have said Sayid. That would have blown Locke's mind.

If he wanted to blow Locke's mind, he should've said "Kate".



wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Not sure on Danielle's memory changing because Jin just now did it. I mean if Jin had not been there, she would have gone down in the Temple too, right? He stopped her, which caused her to not get the "sickness" and shoot everyone else. Or would she have not gone down for some other reason?

Also, I was interested in Christians comment about Ben never making decisions that were good for the island. Does this mean Jacob doesn't like Ben? Why would he have put him in charge then? Does Ben not listen to what Jacob wants all the time? We know he does sometimes for sure. Tons of questions all from that one line.

(edited by wmatistic on 12.2.09 0552)
Spaceman Spiff
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Since: 2.1.02
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05

    I mean if Jin had not been there, she would have gone down in the Temple too, right? He stopped her, which caused her to not get the "sickness" and shoot everyone else. Or would she have not gone down for some other reason?


Not necessarily. Her crew only got pulled down at that point because Jin was leading them through the jungle. Originally, her crew could've been grabbed after leaving her behind at camp to rest, or any other number of scenarios where she wouldn't have gone down after them. The "main points" were preserved - the crew gets "sick" and Danielle doesn't. Jin stopping her was just a course correction to preserve what happened.

She'd have only remembered Jin if Jin had jumped back prior to her retelling the story to the Losties.



Captaincuba
Italian








Since: 25.10.05

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.88
I think reincarnation (which I caught immediately) means more here. They are bringing Locke back to the island in his box, similarly Christian washed up in his box too didn't he?

Aaron was born as Boone died.

Richard Alpert asked lil John Locke if he remembered the compass...perhaps it was his in another life?

Perhaps Christian is Jacob reincarnated?

Meh...Im sounding like a crazy man too now.

CC
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.52
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    That's because the disappearing Korea dude didn't happen when she originally told the story. Jin didn't show up in Danielle's past until he jumped back in time. If Danielle was still alive, she would have had a new "memory" of Jin created, that she wouldn't realize until her present time (cf. Desmond's dream memory of meeting Faraday).


You're forgetting both parts of Daniel's #1 rule of time travel:

a) whatever happened, happened
b) if it didn't happen, it CAN'T happen

2005 Sawyer could not meet pre-815 Desmond because it didn't happen. 2005 Jin can meet 1988 Danielle because it always happened. There is only one timeline.

You cannot compare Desmond to anyone else because the rules do not apply to Desmond. He is the Black Swan.

This is what we know. If this show went through the trouble of establishing the rules, and then broke them five episodes later, then it doesn't deserve its audience.
OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.54
That's now how time travel is presented as working on this show. With the exception of Daniel talking to Desmond outside of the hatch (allowed because Desmond is "special"), everything that happens with our people in the past always happened. If Jin was there with Rousseau's crew, he was always there with Rousseau's crew.
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 41 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35

I continue to believe that Daniel is an unreliable narrator (as it were) and think his time travel theories may not be 100% accurate.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
The Affirmation, Baby Blog
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff

      I mean if Jin had not been there, she would have gone down in the Temple too, right? He stopped her, which caused her to not get the "sickness" and shoot everyone else. Or would she have not gone down for some other reason?


    Not necessarily. Her crew only got pulled down at that point because Jin was leading them through the jungle. Originally, her crew could've been grabbed after leaving her behind at camp to rest, or any other number of scenarios where she wouldn't have gone down after them. The "main points" were preserved - the crew gets "sick" and Danielle doesn't. Jin stopping her was just a course correction to preserve what happened.

    She'd have only remembered Jin if Jin had jumped back prior to her retelling the story to the Losties.


Jin wasn't leading them through the jungle, he was going with them as they went on their already determined path to the radio tower. They would have done that anyway.

I need to go back to when Danielle first met with them to see if she happens across Jin at any point and shows a sign of recognition. That would be neat, though I'd be shocked.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by Mr Shh
    You're forgetting both parts of Daniel's #1 rule of time travel:

    a) whatever happened, happened
    b) if it didn't happen, it CAN'T happen

    2005 Sawyer could not meet pre-815 Desmond because it didn't happen. 2005 Jin can meet 1988 Danielle because it always happened. There is only one timeline.

It only "always happened" because Jin jumped back in time. Up until Jin got blown off the boat & picked up by the Frenchies, Jin & Danielle meeting never happened. "Always happened" would imply that Jin met Danielle on the island before he ever crashed there as a member of flight 815, right?

While it is true Sawyer and pre-815 Desmond didn't/couldn't meet, Desmond still heard Sawyer banging on the hatch door (I'm pretty sure we're supposed to infer that), he just thought it was Daniel doing it the entire time.

    Originally posted by odessasteps

    I continue to believe that Daniel is an unreliable narrator (as it were) and think his time travel theories may not be 100% accurate.

Yeah, me too. I'm beginning to think the "big moments" are unchangeable, while the mundane, in between stuff is a bit malleable.

    Originally posted by wmatistic
    Jin wasn't leading them through the jungle, he was going with them as they went on their already determined path to the radio tower. They would have done that anyway.

They had to ask Jin if there was a radio tower on the island. Once he confirmed it, they asked him to take them there. They wouldn't have known where to go if not for Jin (at least at that point - they could have figured it out at a later time).



Super Shane Spear
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.27
This episode perfectly sets the table for Jeremy Davids to get his Emmy nomination during his inevitable encounter with young(er) Charlotte where he desperately and futility pleads with her to never come back. Buy Kleenex stock now.



I don't mean to seem like I care about material things (like a social status,)
I just want four walls and adobe slabs for my girls
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 41 days
Last activity: 8 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.35

from what I read elsewhere earlier today, rousseau said in season one that her crew got the sickness at the black rock.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
The Affirmation, Baby Blog
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 7 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.52
    Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
    It only "always happened" because Jin jumped back in time. Up until Jin got blown off the boat & picked up by the Frenchies, Jin & Danielle meeting never happened. "Always happened" would imply that Jin met Danielle on the island before he ever crashed there as a member of flight 815, right?

Its all about perspective and more specifically, whose perspective youre talking about.

From Jins perspective...

Jin is living large with Sun in South Korea doing mob work for Mr. Paik, THEN, hes on 815 when it crashes on the Island, THEN hes on the Freighter when it explodes, THEN he starts skipping around in time until he meets Danielle.

From Danielles perspective...

She and her crew shipwreck on the Island, THEN she meets some random Korean dude, THEN the random Korean dude prevents her from going into Smokeys lair, THEN she witnesses the random Korean dude literally vanish.

In short If someone asked Jin when he met young Danielle, he would say AFTER 815 crashed, but if someone asked an outside observer (one of us - the audience - who sees the whole timeline), he or she would say BEFORE 815 crashed.

Course correction kept Jin alive when the Freighter blew up because *he had to* skip around in time after the wheel was turned and meet Danielle.

To preemptively answer your next question...yes, this means that in 1988, there is a teenaged Jin living in South Korea and an adult Jin unconscious in the middle of the ocean, simultaneously.

This same logic applies to Ethan shooting Locke in the leg at the site of the Nigerian plane crash AND also explains how Frogurt was killed by a flaming arrow probably 20-some odd years before he was even born.

This is how I interpret the rules, anyway. :-)

Re: Daniel being an unreliable narrator, I cant agree. He has to be a reliable narrator, because he is the ONLY narrator. Practically speaking, if the show introduces a new narrator that refutes what Daniel said, then theyre going to alienate even more of their audience (which is dropping ever so slightly by the week). I guarantee that every one of us here knows someone who is a fan of the show but is *not* at all a sci-fi geek. You really cant risk confusing that segment of your audience even more than they might be now.



(edited by Mr Shh on 12.2.09 1755)
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Liked this a lot. Poor man's Heat. The interplay between Affleck and Jeremy Renner was pretty strong and created some genuine tension. Jon Hamm may be my favorite actor in the world right now.
- Mr Shh, The Town (2010)
Related threads: LOST 5x4: The Little Prince - SciFi's Monday block - Lost 5x3 - "Jughead" - More...
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