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The W - Movies & TV - Lost 5x11 - "Whatever Happened, Happened" (Page 2)
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samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

Since last post: 428 days
Last activity: 421 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.14
At this point, Lost has become more of a "what will/did happen" or "why is that like that" type of show to me rather than one in which I'm particularly concerned about what the characters do.

I don't know if that made sense, so here's another shot at it.

I mostly care about learning the entirety of the mythos, so I don't care if everything is predestined for the characters in 1977, since I'm still going to surprised and entertained by what I see on the screen.



Lloyd: When I met Mary, I got that old fashioned romantic feeling, where I'd do anything to bone her.
Harry: That's a special feeling.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 6 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
I just screwed up my own understanding of "whatever happened, happened"

So I said it was that whatever choice they made, they always made that choice so nothing could change. But what if say one of them wrote down what they did and put that journal in a spot where future them would find it. Then they would know what bad decisions they made and would make different ones this time around in the 70's, right?

In essence that would mean that no, it didn't always happen the same way because they changed what they actually did, knowing about it before hand.

Does that make any sense?
emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 1 day
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I need to just switch gears for a while, focus on the framework, & roll with the tao. We're getting positioned for the last end-of-season cliffhanger, so we need to get some things answered before that.

I hate that whole course correction element -- I have never cared for the mathematics of that even a little. But I'm convinced that TPTB wouldn't have gone to the trouble of introducing it if it's not going to be a significant element.

I suppose what I'm responding to is that the whole "free will" / choices / decision-making theme really resonates with me. Maybe I'd be happier watching the 1977 timeline as interactive flashback, if the players weren't all in on it too. With course correction, at least their choices mean *something* -- even if it's just making the universe do the fix-up. Without the course correction, for the 7 of them that are in on it, there is zero pressure to choose correctly. Relax & toss the I Ching to decide, because whatever you pick, by definition, is what you always picked & is, by definition, "right".

This is probably all a useful experience for Mr Control Freak Jack. Hurley's pretty much always been Mr Go With The Flow, so it's probably a relief for him. Kate, Sawyer & Julite -- I dunno...

Mantra for the rest of the season: "Relax & flow with the tao."


See, the Tao dictated that wmatistic would be typing modifying his position at exactly the same moment that I was typing agreeing with his original position. :-)
(edited by emma on 7.4.09 1240)

(edited by emma on 7.4.09 1313)
Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

Since last post: 1648 days
Last activity: 1648 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    But what if say one of them wrote down what they did and put that journal in a spot where future them would find it.


Any journals would never make it into the hands of anybody who could do anything about it. They would either be destroyed by a fire or end up somewhere where the 2004 lostaways would never find it. Why? Because that's what happened.

Example: Claire tried to give up her child for adoption, right? Only whenever she tried, something got in the way, like her pen wouldn't work.

If Claire had signed that, she wouldn't have been duped into getting on 815. Then Kate would've never had a reason to come back. Then Ben Linus would've never became Ben Linus.



You should listen to what I listen to
Also, I twoot now. @swedding
emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 18 days
Last activity: 1 day
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
    Originally posted by wmatistic
    I just screwed up my own understanding of "whatever happened, happened"

    So I said it was that whatever choice they made, they always made that choice so nothing could change. But what if say one of them wrote down what they did and put that journal in a spot where future them would find it. Then they would know what bad decisions they made and would make different ones this time around in the 70's, right?

    In essence that would mean that no, it didn't always happen the same way because they changed what they actually did, knowing about it before hand.

    Does that make any sense?
I think that was one too many pronouns. :-) But let's try this:

-- If Sayid'77, realising that killing Ben didn't work, goes to their beach (in 1977) & carves into his totally fave rock:

"Dear Sayid, in 2004, whose O815 plane just crashed on this very beach,
You will meet Benjamin Linus, claiming to be Henry Gale. He is evil, & you must kill him at the first available opportunity. Love, Sayid'77"

According to WHH (if I've got it right), Sayid'77 could have done that. Sayid'04 could have gotten that message, & killed Ben'04. But then the whole TT back to 1977 couldn't have happened. Since the TT back did happen (WHH), we know Sayid'04 didn't kill Ben'04. We can't say for sure whether: a) S'04 tried & failed (completely); b) S'04 didn't believe the message; c) S'04 didn't get the message (eg. the rock eroded); or d) S'77 didn't leave such a message. But we know by inference one of those things had to have been the case, because we know that we had a live Ben'07 & we have a Sayid'77 TT'd back on the Island.

I think that's the way that roll-out-roll-back goes. I'm not a fan, but I believe that's the interpretation according to the rules.

How's that?

And meanwhile, backwards "drop-off" communication doesn't work at all. Say Hurley'04 carves on his fave rock "Apollo bars are yummy." If Hurley'77 goes looking for that carving, he won't find it, because, in 1977, 2004 hasn't happened yet. Hurley remembers that ApolloBars'04 are yummy, 'cause our TTers keep their memories when they TT. (Most of them, at least). But the note on the rock isn't there.
Mr Shh
Toulouse








Since: 9.1.02
From: Bergen County, NJ

Since last post: 15 hours
Last activity: 15 hours
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.42
There are rules in place and WHH is the way of the world, but somehow there is also a way to break the rules. Desmond is the key. Ben said that Widmore "broke the rules" when Keamy killed Alex. We don't know at all what this means yet, but if Ben is talking about the same rules, then there is a HUGE Pandora's Box that can be opened. How did Charles break those rules then? No idea, but he has had plenty of interaction with Desmond.

EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 11 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.20
    Originally posted by Mr Shh
    Ben said that Widmore "broke the rules" when Keamy killed Alex.


I'm thinking those are different rules, but if that explains Ben's insistence to Alex that everything would be fine despite scrambling to come up with what to say to Keamy to get him to let her go, that would be awesome.

I still think that WHH is the predominant rule, but at some point someone other than Desmond is going to break it in a surprising way, and all hell will be brought lose. I'd wager the writers are saving that for this season's finale, though.



You believe me, don't you?
Please believe what I just said...
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 19 hours
Last activity: 6 hours
AIM:  
#28 Posted on
No one has successfully broken anything yet, not even Desmond. He had visions of possible outcomes that could happen to Charlie, but he could never change the thing that was 100% going to happen no matter how hard he tried: Charlie would die.

Even on the canoe, when he volunteered to go down to the underwater hatch instead of Charlie, he couldn't stop that Charlie would ultimately go down there and die, in the stupidest way imaginable.

Desmond does have a unique skill, in that he can see the future and time travel in his mind, possibly even time traveling into his past self, but the same outcomes always occur.

I hope the whole series ends with no one creating any time paradoxes, and that the series winds up being a perfect clock. That would be amazing if they pulled that off.


I do think that Ben and Widmore are talking about different rules, though. When they had that conversation last season, I was under the impression that they had some sort of a truce or something.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 8.4.09 1748)
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It looks like a pretty fun movie that does not take itself seriously. I think it will take in $128,571,428 at the box office, +/- $10 million.
Related threads: Lost 5x10 - "He's Our You" - Lost 5x9 - "Namaste!" - Lost 5-8: 'Lafleur' - More...
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