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19.9.14 1307
The W - Movies & TV - Lost 5x11 - "Whatever Happened, Happened"
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John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 82 days
Last activity: 82 days
#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
Maybe my years of pondering Star Trek and Terminator predestination paradoxes weren't a complete waste of time, because I'm pretty sure I get the gist of the Lost rules of time travel. Miles actually explained it fairly well to Hurley in between calling him "Tubby" and "dingbat". (Also, Miles and Hurley make a pretty good comedy team, it turns out. It took an angry Asian guy who sees ghosts to give Hurley his best playmate since Charlie died.)

So. Nothing Faraday said before has been wrong. Whatever happened, happened. When Ben turned the wheel, he dislodged everyone still on the Island from time. Then when the Oceanic Six came back to the Island, they were privy to the time-go-back-now (except for Sun, Locke, Ben, and Lapidus. The explanation for that is coming, no doubt.) Ben is the only one in the regular cast who had a life on the Island in the past. He doesn't remember Sayid shooting him because LaFleur and Kate brought him to Richard Alpert; this caused Ben to become an Other.

Richard: "His innocence will be lost."
Me: "You're gonna let the smoke monster rape him?"

Maybe he did. I liked that Sayid, LaFleur and Kate ALL caused Ben to become Ben. They all had a hand in how Ben turned out to be the bug-eyed, manipulative bastard we know and love. Meanwhile, everyone can die in 1977 and it wouldn't harm the future because the future already happened because it's their and our past. This all makes a reasonable amount of sense to me. I think I have this all sorted out for myself.

I also like that Lost has completely sidestepped the obvious, even expected, drama between Kate and Juliet re: James Sawyer Ford LaFleur. No Jerry Springer "He's MY man!" "Oh no you di'n't! He mine!" BS. Kate and Juliet worked pretty well together. And one more thing Lost's leading ladies have in common is they're pretty disappointed in Jack.

Kate: "I liked the old you."
Jack: "You hated the old me."

Most people don't like any of you, Jack. Although I also see Jack's point. He played the Save Ben game before and it didn't get him anywhere. He's actually doing the right thing for once by staying on the sidelines and not sticking his nose in every damn thing. He's only been in 1977 for less than 72 hours. Still, not acting like a hero made Jack look like an asshole. It's complicated. I like this show a lot.

Kate came back to find Claire. Except she's in '77. Inconvenient. No wonder she's been scrunching her face and pouting a lot. Too bad she can't commiserate with Sun, who's also in the wrong time to find her husband. It's like some fucked up temporal gift of the magi.

I guess we're meant to infer Ben was dreaming about his getting shot before he woke up to find Locke greeting him with a pithy joke. Does Ben now remember what happened in '77?

One day Walt, Aaron, Clementine, and Ji Yeon ought to get together. Maybe that's a spin off show: Lost Babies. There aren't four more potentially confused children in all of television.
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StingArmy
Andouille








Since: 3.5.03
From: Georgia bred, you can tell by my Hawk jersey

Since last post: 40 days
Last activity: 21 hours
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06
I think I understand the timeline too. Miles describing it as time-isn't-in-a-line was my "a ha!" moment.

After Hurley stumped Miles with his paradox (why wouldn't 2004 Ben remember Sayid shooting him in 1977 while the same Sayid was torturing him?), I thought the encounter with Alpert was brilliant writing and explained that and everything else. And am I wrong to assume the "Charles" they were whispering about is Charles Widmore?

John Locke's Evil Squint(tm) at the very end of the episode made me squeal like a little girl. I rewound the DVR and watched that scene over and over again like a dozen times. I knocked over my water glass twice. Just the idea of waking up after a plane crash and being confronted face-to-face by the man you killed with your bare hands is chilling enough, but that look by Locke was just WOW. I might be overselling it but that has to be in my Top 10 favorite moments from the entire series.

- StingArmy
The King of Keith
Lap cheong








Since: 4.11.02
From: Winchester, VA

Since last post: 280 days
Last activity: 239 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.18
I agree. It was truly awesome and I hope he has something truly special lined up for Mr. Linus.

(edited by The King of Keith on 2.4.09 0121)


Am I in Horseville? Because I'm hearing nothing but naysayers!
Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

Since last post: 1557 days
Last activity: 1557 days
#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.28
That smile and very last little squint of the eyes from Locke just displaced Budd from Kill Bill V2* for best facial expression of all time.

*"I guess we'll just see...won't we?" *smile*

(edited by Super Shane Spear on 1.4.09 2209)


You should listen to what I listen to
Also, I twoot now. @swedding
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.05
Wait a minute, how does Miles know about turning the wheel? He might've heard from Locke that Ben moved the Island, but he doesn't specifically know how --- hell, Locke didn't even know that until he went down the well himself.

I'm fascinated by the idea that Ben is how he is because he was exposed to Smokey, or whatever the hell happens in the Temple. We've already seen what happened to Danielle's fiance (when he tried to shoot her), so it's clearly not a positive influence. I wonder if this is what happened with Christian when 815 crashed on the Island....or, more ominously, I wonder if the reincarnated Locke isn't the old Locke that we've come to know over the last five years.





Kirk, crackers are a family food. Happy families. Maybe single people eat crackers, we don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know. It's a market we can do without.
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 17 hours
AIM:  
Y!:
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.06
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    It's like some fucked up temporal gift of the magi.


This is the whole damn point of the show, right here.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.


“That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy” - Swift

EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.21
Unless Miles has a deathwish, I'm not sure why he would have wanted Hurley to shoot him. Unless he was going to want Hurley to shoot himself...

I'm glad they had the Hurley-Miles dialogue. I didn't catch the part about Miles knowing about turning the donkey wheel. Perhaps Miles gains that knowledge when whatever happened to Faraday happens.

I LOVE how Sayid and Jack, in trying to prevent Ben from becoming Ben, made Ben become Ben. I wonder if, on some level, this was why Ben wanted Jack to want to do the surgery back in season 3. If Ben knew that Jack could save him, and his innocence, by not being a dick, then maybe Ben was trying to set that up. Or maybe Ben was being extra-dickish, knowing that if he wasn't, Jack could save him and leave him as a father-beaten cry-baby instead of the evil pathological liar we all know and love. Of course, Richard said Ben won't remember anything, so this is all idle speculation.

How are they going to explain to Roger where Ben is? I guess Lafleur and co. cover enough for Ben to keep him in the Work Man career path so that he can stick around to purge everyone.

I LOVE how they are using what we saw of Rousseau's back-story, which at the time just seemed to be mythological fill-in-the-dots, to foreshadow and leave us wondering about what will happen to young Ben. It sure seemed like Ben was regaining his memories of being shot when he woke up from Sun's beatdown. Still, if Richard said he wouldn't remember, I'm curious why he would now. We'll have to see just what they do to Ben in the temple. I keep thinking back to the end of "The Shape of Things to Come" when Widmore sneers at Ben, "I know who you are, boy. What you are." I love that Richard apparently pulled rank over Charles and Ellie by taking in Ben. It will be interesting to see just what the dynamics of the Others power structure is at this point, and how that relates to where everyone is in 2007. How old is Faraday, seeing as Ellie is apparently still on the island?

So far, they are pulling off the time travel element amazingly well. Awesome.



You believe me, don't you?
Please believe what I just said...
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 82 days
Last activity: 82 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
I also loved Miles holding Jack, Kate, and Hurley in house arrest.

Miles: "You're free to leave. If you do, I'll shoot you in the leg."

Then later Kate bolts out the door.

Miles: "HEY!"
dunkndollaz
Banger








Since: 3.1.02
From: Northern NJ

Since last post: 8 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#9 Posted on
I am crying "shenanigans" (or perhaps a bad picture on my monitor) but Sayid shot young Ben in the heart last week but this week when Jin rolls him over, the bullet wound is on his right side - not like Mr. Assassin to miss by so much from so close.

Dr. Jackenstein, in refusing to operate, has created a monster....and Juliet surgically filleted Dr. Jackenstein when he stepped out of the shower

"I did it for her." - *slap* - Kate says ouch - I say ouch seeing Kate in the Grocery store in 2007

Hurley has always been the voice of the fans and his conversation with Miles was absolutely priceless

and Good Morning Ben - how do you Locke me now ? *evil squint*

is it next wednesday yet ?



(edited by dunkndollaz on 2.4.09 0853)

I am the Grand Poobah of the Benevolent Society of Angry Misanthropes
John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 82 days
Last activity: 82 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
Re: "I am crying "shenanigans" (or perhaps a bad picture on my monitor) but Sayid shot young Ben in the heart last week but this week when Jin rolls him over, the bullet wound is on his right side - not like Mr. Assassin to miss by so much from so close."

I also noticed that. My unsubstantiated working theory is that Sayid did not miss. Sayid aimed for the heart and hit it. But the Island intervened so when Ben was turned over, the bullet magically moved to a different side so he could survive.

I don't know how to paste pictures on here, but courtesy of Lostpedia.com, here's everyone's favorite John Locke Evil Squint (TM):

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Image:LivingAgain.jpg

(edited by John Orquiola on 2.4.09 0749)
odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 94 days
Last activity: 60 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.30

Maybe Ben is a Time Lord and his heart is on the other side.



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
The Affirmation, Baby Blog
Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

Since last post: 23 hours
Last activity: 37 min.
AIM:  
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.57
    Originally posted by John Orquiola

    One day Walt, Aaron, Clementine, and Ji Yeon ought to get together. Maybe that's a spin off show: Lost Babies. There aren't four more potentially confused children in all of television.


If they are raised by a nanny with green and white striped socks then I'm in.

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Wait a minute, how does Miles know about turning the wheel? He might've heard from Locke that Ben moved the Island, but he doesn't specifically know how --- hell, Locke didn't even know that until he went down the well himself.



Miles has ghostly spies everywhere, he could know everything there is to know about the island and they could easily use that excuse.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
BigDaddyLoco
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.21
This was a nice build up/explanation episode. I also would have never guessed that Aaron ended up somewhere normal.

I've been waiting for the Ben/Locke moment for awhile now and wasn't letdown when we finally got it. I'm really looking forward to getting them back into the game.



wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 46 min.
AIM:  
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
Or since Miles knew that Ben and Locke went down into the Orchid to move the island, and at the beginning of the season we saw Farrady down in the wheel room in a Dharma suit, they could go with the slightly easier explanation that Farraday told him.
CxMorgado
Boudin rouge








Since: 21.1.02
From: Boston MA is the rippen'ist town...

Since last post: 270 days
Last activity: 2 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.63
    Originally posted by John Orquiola
    (Also, Miles and Hurley make a pretty good comedy team, it turns out. It took an angry Asian guy who sees ghosts to give Hurley his best playmate since Charlie died.)


I'm surprised no one called the Asian guy who hears ghosts teaming up with the fat guy who sees ghosts earlier. You'd think we'd have seen that one coming.

Can't wait for next week.



Biddip-bo!
dWs
Chorizo








Since: 26.2.09
From: Humpty Doo, Australia

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 1 day
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.67
Just curious, but were VW buses known for their off-road capabilities?

Hurley seemed to actually enjoy time traveling. But what else would you expect from the show's resident comic-book lovin' guy? If you're ever in over your head; be it 30 years in the past or on a mystical island with strange crap; it'd be great to have a Hurley along to keep you rooted.

As long as the nosebleeds don't return anytime soon, I'm digging this 70's "Lost on Dharma" stuff.

Weak Theory of the Week: I wonder if the often-mentioned "List" kept by Ben, Jacob and the 2004 Others somehow relates to maintaining the timestream and eliminating anomalies?



Da' Wrestling Site
Teapot
Kishke








Since: 1.8.02
From: Louisville KY

Since last post: 130 days
Last activity: 16 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.89
    Originally posted by Quezzy
      Originally posted by John Orquiola

      One day Walt, Aaron, Clementine, and Ji Yeon ought to get together. Maybe that's a spin off show: Lost Babies. There aren't four more potentially confused children in all of television.


    If they are raised by a nanny with green and white striped socks then I'm in.


Already been done.



emma
Cherries > Peaches








Since: 1.8.02
From: Phoenix-ish

Since last post: 2 days
Last activity: 21 hours
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.38
(Sorry I'm late to the party -- had guests in town & only watched it last night.)

OK, so we're strictly going with WHH. Bummer. I find this so much less interesting. From here on, everything going on with the 1977 crew is now reduced to the same level as flashback. We can answer questions & fill in how & why things happened. That's all good & fine, & we'd be pissed if we didn't get some answers. But, we've effectively thrown out free will, choice & "making a difference" from that entire timeline.

F'rinstance, the obstinate Jack example. He was being a dick not jumping in & doing the surgery on Ben. But it doesn't matter. Ben'77 becomes Ben'07 -- WHH. If Jack had mucked in & done the surgery, something else would have happened so that Ben'77 becomes Ben'07. Fait accompli. If Kate hadn't been around, it wouldn't have mattered, If Sawyer hadn't come along to get Kate & Ben past the fence & off to Richard, then something else would have happened to get Ben to Richard. WHH.

Sawyer, Juliet, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Jin, Miles can all sit around on fluffy cushions eating lotus & contemplating their navels, because the cumulative outcome is already set. Anything related to deciding, trying, striving, seeking, sacrifice, failing -- all that classical dramatic fuel, is gone from that whole chunk of the story. Conflict is rendered moot, because it only matters in the most localised, self-centered way -- the end result doesn't change. Whether they act on faith or science or believe or don't -- doesn't matter -- WHH.

Am I not applying the principle correctly? I actually hope I'm not.

At least we don't already know what happens with Ben & Locke in 2007 !!!
Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.39

    Sawyer, Juliet, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Jin, Miles can all sit around on fluffy cushions eating lotus & contemplating their navels, because the cumulative outcome is already set. Anything related to deciding, trying, striving, seeking, sacrifice, failing -- all that classical dramatic fuel, is gone from that whole chunk of the story. Conflict is rendered moot, because it only matters in the most localised, self-centered way -- the end result doesn't change. Whether they act on faith or science or believe or don't -- doesn't matter -- WHH.


I see what you're saying, and it might have been better if the Losties were doing more while stuck in Dharmaville, but while the overall timeline might be known to us, it's not known to the Losties. For example, they know that a purge is coming, but not exactly when. They know that some kind of 'incident' happens that necessitates the button-pushing at the Swan, but they don't know what the incident is (my theory is that the inevitable time travel that gets them back to 2007 is actually 'the incident').

Also, the one thing that neither the characters nor the audience knows is what will happen to Sawyer, Juliet, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Miles, Sayid and Dan the individual characters. They might die in 1977, get zapped back to 2007 or lord knows what else.



Kirk, crackers are a family food. Happy families. Maybe single people eat crackers, we don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know. It's a market we can do without.
wmatistic
Andouille








Since: 2.2.04
From: Austin, TX

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 46 min.
AIM:  
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
My understanding of it isn't that they can do whatever they want and the end result is the same, but rather that whether they chose to do something or not...that's always the choice they made. So if they sit around, they always did that. There's no need for course correction if you will because they never did it any differently.

But I think as this season ends we'll get them back to the present and move along from there. At least I hope so.
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I first happened upon Are You Being Served? back in the early 1990s when the local PBS station starting airing it. It's always been one of those shows I'll stop to watch if I'm going through the channels.
Related threads: Lost 5x10 - "He's Our You" - Lost 5x9 - "Namaste!" - Lost 5-8: 'Lafleur' - More...
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