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The W - Current Events & Politics - Let's do away with the IRS in the U.S. (Page 2)
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MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 31 days
Last activity: 2 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28

    Originally posted by PalpatineW

      Originally Posted by MoeGates
      I agree the middle-class has way too much of a tax burden. A flat tax would make this much worse. We need to go the OTHER way, to a much more progressive tax system, including a progressive payroll tax system, to make taxes fairer to the middle-class.


    Let me paraphrase what you said: "We need a tax system that is harder on some people than it is on others, in order to be fair."

    The only FAIR thing is user fees. Socialism is most decidedly not fair. Taking person X's money and giving him nothing in return is not fair. Giving that money to person Y, who has not earned it, is not fair. You might think it's right, or nice, or even necessary, and that's fine. But let's leave fair out of this, because right now the tax code is a political weapon whereby politicians take from one segment of the population in order to buy votes from other segments.



See, this argument I can respect. You and I have a moral disagreement here. You think your ideas are right, I think mine are, and we'll argue the merits. You aren't pretending that it's going to benefit people it won't benefit, at least in a monetary sense.

Another thing is that if, by eliminating deductions for richer households, they could actually pay more in taxes with a flat tax even though the marginal tax rate is lower simply because there are no loopholes to avoid taxes.

Again, eliminating loopholes and deductions and creating a flat tax are two different things. You want to eliminate loopholes? Great, do it. It has no bearing on if there is one tax bracket, or two, or 6. You can have a flat tax with loopholes and deductions. You can have a progressive system without them. They are not related issues.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74

    Originally posted by Corajudo
    I hate to speak for redsoxnation, but I'm about 99.9% sure he was being as sarcastic with his post as I was with mine. One tax rate, exempt the first $10-20 thousand of income and that's it.

    The Judge--FWIW, I don't understand why you were labeled a troll.



I know it was being sarcastic, but it helped me vent on why this fucking tax system sucks so much.

If you exempt the first 10K to 20K income, won't a good 40% of the US population NOT be paying taxes any more? This is a horrible idea. I mean, sure, you are poor, but that doesn't mean you should pay for your government. This is just screaming for people to WANT to earn less, so they DON'T have to pay taxes.

Judge is a troll who was banned and just obviously signed on using a different name. Nemesis, I believe, is who he was. Check his sign up time. I'm a loser, I was on at the time, It's quite obvious what he did... but I don't care, It gave me an excuse to use the new features here on Wienerboard.



Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
The Judge
Loukanika








Since: 16.3.03
From: Island of Atlantis

Since last post: 4203 days
Last activity: 4197 days
#23 Posted on
Cerebus no offense but I am not Nemesis. I do know Nemesis from 411. He told me he was banned here and I came here just to check out what he had done and decided to check the site out. Thats when I decided to register. I have not trolled anything as most of my posts have been limited to my own threads until people here know I'm not here to cause any trouble. But if you think its best for me to leave just say so, there is no need to ban me unless you just need too.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 7 hours
Last activity: 7 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
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#24 Posted on

    Originally posted by Cerebus
    Judge is a troll who was banned and just obviously signed on using a different name. Nemesis, I believe, is who he was. Check his sign up time. I'm a loser, I was on at the time, It's quite obvious what he did... but I don't care, It gave me an excuse to use the new features here on Wienerboard.
If Judge were Nemesis, he'd have been banned immediately. Believe me, I have nothing better to do than check things like this out. This might be a good time to remind you who the board police are:

Not You

Thanks!



©CRZ™
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 4 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74
WOAH! OK... it just seemed suspicious, that's all. SORRY, alright.



Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 73 days
Last activity: 3 days
#26 Posted on
Moe--I wasn't clear on my post. When I talk about a flat tax, I mean eliminating all deductions and everything (with the exception of exempting the first $X,000 in income). Thi is why I said the lawyer/tax accountant lobby would fight it tooth and nail and is also why a Congress composed largely of lawyers or people with a strong legal background would never pass it. There are a couple of groups who would lose their livelihood over this measure, so they would be willing to do more to oppose it than I would to support it (which, when you get down to it, is why the special interest lobbies are so powerful). So, let me reiterate that when I talk about a flat tax, I mean a flat tax without deductions of any kind.

In this vein, do you think it is feasible that Bill Gates (or the 'average' very rich person) deducts at least 14.6% of their income? If so, a flat tax will not lower their tax burden; it will raise it. I agree that a flat tax without changing the current tax code otherwise would be a terrible idea.

And, Cerebus, just because someone doesn't pay income tax, doesn't mean they don't pay any taxes. They still pay sales tax, gasoline tax, property tax, buy lottery tickets, etc. Furthermore, they spend a much higher percentage of their income on these taxes so I can see why we would give them a break on income taxes. Also, I don't have a problem helping out poor people by easing their tax burden. At least they are working and contributing something to the economy and paying excise taxes out of their own pocket.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 31 days
Last activity: 2 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I think no matter how much you tried to eliminate deductions and loopholes, you still have the problem of defining "income." You'd still have the accountants and lawyers there to try make your income not really income. And then, of course, you'd have to have the IRS there.

I think as long as you have taxes in a country as big and complicated as ours, you're going to have people trying to avoid taxes.

As for your idea, why not eliminate all deductions, etc., expempt the first $XXX in income, and then take an hour and draw up 5 progressive brackets? It would take no more skill than knowing Excel. I don't think you even need to knowd Calculus. It wouldn't really be any more complicated that a flat tax. You'd have a little chart like they do now, you look up how much you made, it tells you how much you should pay.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
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I'd have to say "Yeah, that's pretty much what it feels like sometimes.
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