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The W - Current Events & Politics - Let's do away with the IRS in the U.S.
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The Judge
Loukanika








Since: 16.3.03
From: Island of Atlantis

Since last post: 4185 days
Last activity: 4179 days
#1 Posted on
The way the taxes are done in the U.S. are a disgrace.

If you work for a company in the U.S. you are taxed at a rate I figure is at least 40 cents on every dollar you earn. You must pay from your paycheck Federal, State, FICA, Medicare. Then you take what is left and pay property tax, license tag for your vehicles, drivers license, hunting license, toll fees on some interstates. Then you take what is left of that and pay taxes on everything you buy, gas, food, etc.

If you own a company or are extremly rich you can afford the people that will hide your money from the IRS. Drug dealers don't pay taxes. Illegal aliens who are paid in cash don't pay tax, poor people can avoid them.

My solution would be to do away with the IRS and all State taves and have a national sales tax. This way noone could avoid helping with the tax burden. Everyone has to buy stuff at stores, Mafia members, Drug Dealers, illegal aliens, rich, poor, and even visitors to our country.

The best part of my solution is the government would no longer need to worry about where people get their money. They would not have a reason to be snooping into my finances. But then again this might just be the reason they would never want to change the tax system.
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dMr
Andouille








Since: 2.11.02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland

Since last post: 55 days
Last activity: 11 hours
#2 Posted on

    Originally posted by The Judge
    The way the taxes are done in the U.S. are a disgrace.

    If you work for a company in the U.S. you are taxed at a rate I figure is at least 40 cents on every dollar you earn. You must pay from your paycheck Federal, State, FICA, Medicare. Then you take what is left and pay property tax, license tag for your vehicles, drivers license, hunting license, toll fees on some interstates. Then you take what is left of that and pay taxes on everything you buy, gas, food, etc.

    If you own a company or are extremly rich you can afford the people that will hide your money from the IRS. Drug dealers don't pay taxes. Illegal aliens who are paid in cash don't pay tax, poor people can avoid them.

    My solution would be to do away with the IRS and all State taves and have a national sales tax. This way noone could avoid helping with the tax burden. Everyone has to buy stuff at stores, Mafia members, Drug Dealers, illegal aliens, rich, poor, and even visitors to our country.

    The best part of my solution is the government would no longer need to worry about where people get their money. They would not have a reason to be snooping into my finances. But then again this might just be the reason they would never want to change the tax system.



You do that and you're just asking for a whole new world of 'tax free' black markets to open up.



"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
HrdCoreJoe
Potato korv








Since: 29.4.02
From: Jax, FL

Since last post: 1007 days
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#3 Posted on
Why, I had no idea it was that easy! Let's all go out and change the system!!!!!!! Sorry, I couldn't resist a playful jab at your expense. It's just too farfetched to think something like the IRS could just be gotten rid of like that.



Andy Richter does indeed control the universe.
Whitebacon
Boudin blanc








Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#4 Posted on


(edited by Whitebacon on 17.3.03 1625)


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Go Redroom (goredroom.com)
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The Beast is dead...Long Live the Beast.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
I'll feed.

There are two big problems with a National sales tax (which would be, like, 50%) rather than all the other assorted taxes we've got now.

First is the aforementioned black market/foreign market stuff. Even with a 10% tax, people will drive over the border or buy on the street. With a 50% markup, nobody in their right minds would pay retail. That would probably include legit businesses too.

Second, it discourages spending, which is really what our economy is based on. For all the Republican rhetoric, nobody has ever turned down a higher-paying job because they'll have to pay more taxes. People will most certainly not buy products because they are more expensive though.

The main argument I hear for a national sales tax is that it would make everything simpler (the "everyone would pay" is actually the best argument I've heard for it yet). To those people, I say "who are you kidding?" It would be 3 hours until the first politician decided to try and exempt groceries. Then someone else would make a big complicated system for paying sales tax on buying a home. Then someone else would get the idea that someone who is buying a Lamborghini should pay a higher percentage than someone buying a pair of shoes, so they make a progressive system. Then every business and industry in America decides theie product should get a sales tax break, and lobbying starts up for these. And every person who sold something on E-Bay is going to have to hire an accountant to figure it out. And the government (IRS) is going to have to audit every business, to make sure they are reporting all their sales tax. Everyone will, once a year, have to fill out a form with everything everyone bought from them, and how much sales tax they paid you, and therefor how much you owe the government. This, of course, would be hell on independent contractors. You'll have to keep all the records of all this, and because of the different rates of taxes on various stuff, you'll probably have to hire a professional to do it. Not too different from today.

The tax system is complicated because this is a complicated country, with many competing interests. This won't change, no matter what kind of tax system you have as a base.

(edited by MoeGates on 16.3.03 2121)


It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 428 days
Last activity: 428 days
#6 Posted on
The Internal Revenue Service is one of the most brilliant agencies ever invented with the most courteous representatives in the nation (what, you expect me to say something bad about them and risk being audited?)



If it wasn't for war, you wouldn't know what peace was.
The Judge
Loukanika








Since: 16.3.03
From: Island of Atlantis

Since last post: 4185 days
Last activity: 4179 days
#7 Posted on
(deleted by The Judge on 16.3.03 2028)
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 55 days
Last activity: 6 days
#8 Posted on

    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    The Internal Revenue Service is one of the most brilliant agencies ever invented with the most courteous representatives in the nation (what, you expect me to say something bad about them and risk being audited?)


Amen to that. And may I add that their compassion and heart are second to none. Were it not for their benevolent ways, I would have a problem with them serving as judge, jury and executioner on any tax disagreement and would support a flat tax. Thank goodness they do not abuse their extensive power and do their best to help us all. God bless the Sixteenth Amendment, which brought the IRS into our lives.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1015 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Need I mention that a Flat Tax would punt most of the responsibilites of the IRS?



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
The Judge
Loukanika








Since: 16.3.03
From: Island of Atlantis

Since last post: 4185 days
Last activity: 4179 days
#10 Posted on
I did not think that there would not be a few problems to iron out. All in all it seems the good would outweigh the bad. Just takeing some of the tax burden off the overtaxed middle class seems worth any trouble. redsoxnation post clearly brought up the worst problem with the way the IRS operates today and that is the fear factor.

One question off topic, does Whitebacon think I'm a troll. I'm new but I don't think I have broken any rules. If I have feel free to let me know, but I have only posted maybe three times. Not sure how much trouble I could get into in that amount of time. Of course I started this thread, not sure if its possible to troll your own thread.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Just taking some of the tax burden off the overtaxed middle class seems worth any trouble.

I agree. You don't need to revamp the entire U.S. tax system in order to give the middle-class a tax break.

Need I mention that a Flat Tax would punt most of the responsibilites of the IRS?

This would do no such thing. The complication of the tax system comes with all the deductions, excemptions, corporate loopholes, and weird stuff like that. If you want to get rid of those, that's one thing. That's not what a flat tax is. All a flat tax is is having one income bracket. And putting together the charts that show how much different people in different income brackets pay takes one C.P.A. 2 hours to do on a spreadsheet.

All these "doing taxes would be simpler, we'd get rid of the IRS, everyone hates the IRS!" arguments for whatever tax revamping system you come up with are all just straw-man arguments to distract from the fact that your proposal socks it to the working- and-middle class and helps out the wealthy. If you want to cry "class warfare, people making the most money pay the most taxes, why shopuld I be penalized for working hard" as a reason for this policy, fine. But don't hide it behind hatred of the IRS and (supposed) simplification of taxes.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1015 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    If you want to get rid of those, that's one thing. That's not what a flat tax is. All a flat tax is is having one income bracket.

Then let's dump them. Flat tax, no loopholes, no deductions, no nothing.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
Cerebus
Knackwurst








Since: 17.11.02

Since last post: 34 days
Last activity: 3 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.74

    Originally posted by Corajudo

      Originally posted by redsoxnation
      The Internal Revenue Service is one of the most brilliant agencies ever invented with the most courteous representatives in the nation (what, you expect me to say something bad about them and risk being audited?)


    Amen to that. And may I add that their compassion and heart are second to none. Were it not for their benevolent ways, I would have a problem with them serving as judge, jury and executioner on any tax disagreement and would support a flat tax. Thank goodness they do not abuse their extensive power and do their best to help us all. God bless the Sixteenth Amendment, which brought the IRS into our lives.



Fuck that noise! In the past 4 years, I was audited for fucking 3 of them. I'm just under the 27% bracket and these fucks want me to STILL give them 30% OR MORE. Last year, this fuck head named Craig (MOTHERFUCKER) Monroe told me that I should do better at my job so I can get bumped up and then I won't have to go through all that shit again. Evidently, if I make 72cents more an hour or about $1800.00 more a year, I'll be paying alot more in fucking taxes. Fuck the IRS, Fuck Taxes, and FUCK YOU Craig.

Uhh... anyways, Why not a flat tax? I buy and sell shit like books, movies, CDs for extra income. I don't claim THAT income, but if I did, I'd be getting rapped in the ass off the taxes. They would expect me to pay taxes when I buy the stuff, THEN pay more when I sell it having to claim it, right... this system just plain sucks. Let's go back to the barter system. THAT was a good deal back then.



Cerebus: Barbarian, Prime Minister, Pope, Perfect House Guest.

"Graft is as necessary as throwing up when you drink too much."
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 55 days
Last activity: 6 days
#14 Posted on
I hate to speak for redsoxnation, but I'm about 99.9% sure he was being as sarcastic with his post as I was with mine. And, you wouldn't need the IRS with a flat tax. One tax rate, exempt the first $10-20 thousand of income and that's it. No deductions, no other exemptions, nothing. It will never, never happen because it would completely put out of business all the tax lawyers, tax accountants, tax prep firms, etc. and those lobbies would never, never, never let it happen. But that still doesn't make it a bad idea. In fact, I would argue that makes it a good idea. And, if you sell stuff on the side or tutor or anything else where you get paid in cash and you're not claiming it now, why would you claim it with a flat tax?

I don't see how a flat tax sticks it to the middle class. Provided there was some exemption on the first $X thousand in income, it would still be a progressive tax structure.

The Judge--FWIW, I don't understand why you were labeled a troll. If it's bothering you, you could PM one of the admins (CRZ or Guru Zim) or even Whitebacon directly and find out. I do think it's possible to troll your own thread if you were to start a patently offensive thread (I'm sure there are examples in the 'Banished' forum). However, I don't see how this could possible be an example of this. There's certainly a lot to discuss in the sales tax vs. flat tax vs. graduated income tax vs. value added tax debate.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Then eliminate all the decuctions, etc., and keep the brackets and standard exemptions likme they are now. A Flat tax/Progressive tax is a different animal from eliminating deductions and loopholes. The two shouldn't be linked or confused, is my point.

Of course, you then still have the problem of people sheltering income. You have the problem of business losses or gains, and capital gains losses or gains. What counts as a business expense? You still have the problem that the well off are going to be able to do this while others won't.

I don't see how a flat tax sticks it to the middle class. Provided there was some exemption on the first $X thousand in income, it would still be a progressive tax structure.

It's simple math. Assuming you are shooting for the same total revenue, you would have to make the flat tax rate less than the highest rate and more than the lowest rate. This means the more you make, the more of a break you get. Even if you excempt a certain amount of income, that means you would have to raise the flat-tax rate. So the people who get the worst deal of all are the people who make just enough to put them in the taxpaying bracket. That sounds like the middle-class to me.

What the essential proposal is is to get social, economic, and moral engineering out of taxes. This country thinks giving to charity is good, so we give a tax break for it. We think business growth is important, so we give business tax breaks. We think people having more money for retirement is good, so we give a tax break for saving for retirement. Same with buying a home, even having kids, and a whole host of other smaller stuff.

So how does the government encourage this stuff otherwise? Maybe they don't, maybe they shouldn't. But more likely, they just give direct subsides. Instead of a tax break for buying a home, you end up with the government giving homeowners a direct subsidy. Instead businesses negotiating tax breaks to stay in the U.S., they negotiate getting a certain amount of government contracts. And then you have to have laws, and rules, and lawyers, and accountants for all that.

I think a complicated system is good thing. It reflects the complication of life and business in this country. You don't make a one-size-fits-all poliocy for a country of 250 million, especially one as varied as ours.

Plus, it creats a lot of jobs. Why isn't this a good thing?






It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1218 days
Last activity: 1015 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by MoeGates
    You don't make a one-size-fits-all poliocy for a country of 250 million, especially one as varied as ours.

Of course the current system is actually not fair to the....middle class. The lowest classes are tax users. The highest classes have enough income to avoid heavy taxes. Te Middle Class takes it up the ass.


    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Plus, it creats a lot of jobs. Why isn't this a good thing?

Because more jobs would be created by a flat tax. Companies wouldn't have to squirrel income, they could cut costs, become more efficient, sell a better product for less money, thereby increasing their profits by selling more of a better product, increasing demand for that product, and therebody creating more jobs.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 13 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Because more jobs would be created by a flat tax. Companies wouldn't have to squirrel income, they could cut costs, become more efficient, sell a better product for less money, thereby increasing their profits by selling more of a better product, increasing demand for that product, and therebody creating more jobs.

Are you advocating eliminating corporate taxes? If so, that's an entirely different subject than a flat tax. If not, and you just want the corporations to pay the flat tax, they're still going to try to squirrel income to avoid paying taxes on it, no matter what that tax rate is.

Of course the current system is actually not fair to the....middle class. The lowest classes are tax users. The highest classes have enough income to avoid heavy taxes. Te Middle Class takes it up the ass.

I agree the middle-class has way too much of a tax burden. A flat tax would make this much worse. We need to go the OTHER way, to a much more progressive tax system, including a progressive payroll tax system, to make taxes fairer to the middle-class.

http://www.cbpp.org/311tax.htm

Check out the cart. This shows that only the top 20% of taxpayers pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the AVERAGE for all taxpayers. If you have a flat tax, it's going to be that average in order to raise the same amount of revenue. So a flat tax increases taxes on the bottom 80% of taxpayers, and gives a break to the top 20%. That's a far cry from helping the middle-class.

Look, you guys like to give the rich tax breaks. That's fine. You have arguments and reasoning for this position, and some of them actually make sence. Just do us all a favor and say it, instead of making the ridiculous argument that this will somehow reduce the tax burden on the middle-class, or make things "fairer" and "simpler."







It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

Since last post: 2778 days
Last activity: 2621 days
AIM:  
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally Posted by MoeGates
    I agree the middle-class has way too much of a tax burden. A flat tax would make this much worse. We need to go the OTHER way, to a much more progressive tax system, including a progressive payroll tax system, to make taxes fairer to the middle-class.


Let me paraphrase what you said: "We need a tax system that is harder on some people than it is on others, in order to be fair."

The only FAIR thing is user fees. Socialism is most decidedly not fair. Taking person X's money and giving him nothing in return is not fair. Giving that money to person Y, who has not earned it, is not fair. You might think it's right, or nice, or even necessary, and that's fine. But let's leave fair out of this, because right now the tax code is a political weapon whereby politicians take from one segment of the population in order to buy votes from other segments.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
The Judge
Loukanika








Since: 16.3.03
From: Island of Atlantis

Since last post: 4185 days
Last activity: 4179 days
#19 Posted on
The biggest thing I don't like about a flat tax is: It makes a flat tax for the people already paying taxes and does not bring in people who make their money illegaly. The flat tax would do nothing to make drug dealers, organized crime members, illegal aliens, gangs, and other illicit occupations pay anything into the system. I just think a national sales tax would bring these and others into the system to make it more fair to the middle class.

As far as corporate taxes, I think that is just a joke. Big Business just raises the price of their products to cover any tax burden, so in the end its still the everyday peon who winds up paying these taxes. Its like a hidden tax on top of everything else. Look at the cigarette companys when they were hit with the big lawsuits. They just tripled the price of cigarettes to cover it. The ironic thing was the original lawsuits against the tobacco companies were filed to help the victims like me who smoke, now we are paying the cost of the settlement with none of the money going to help us quit smoking.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 55 days
Last activity: 6 days
#20 Posted on
The problem with the 'our current system creates jobs' argument is the types of jobs it creates. It creates jobs for tax accountants, lawyers and IRS agents. I would argue that these are 'bad' jobs for the economy to have. If, instead of spending money on these services, households spent more money on household goods and actual services that households value (cars, computers, Wrestlemania, stereo equipment, etc.), then you improve the quality of life of the average household. No one (except for the lawyer/accountant/agent) experiences a higher quality of life from our current tax system (assuming we had another, simpler method of raising government revenue). Furthermore, I would much rather spend my free time with my wife or watching tv or doing stuff with friends or family or with the church than preparing taxes. The good things our current system does is promote home ownership and charitable deductions, which I think are postive aspects of our current system.

Another thing is that if, by eliminating deductions for richer households, they could actually pay more in taxes with a flat tax even though the marginal tax rate is lower simply because there are no loopholes to avoid taxes. And, a flat tax does not necessarily mean that the middle class will pay more in taxes. In our current tax system, if you itemize deductions, then determining taxes is not 'simple' math when comparing our current system to a flat tax. You cannot say that if we had a flat tax rate of (say) 25% with an exemption on the first $20,000 of income, then Bill Gates would go from paying a 39.6% marginal tax rate to a 25% tax rate and therefore would lower his tax burden. At the same time, he'd lose his property tax rebate, his charitable deductions, his mortgage interest deduction and his state income tax deduction (among other things). So, the math is not entirely straightforward. To be honest, I don't know the ultimate impact on Gates or on Joe Average (aka Corajudo). But I do think it would be better in the long-run than our current system, even though the adjustment period would be a nightmare.

I'm not making any kind of fairness argument because that's the ultimate empty argument. Fairness all depends on your perspective. What Bill Gates would regard as a 'fair' tax code is far different than what I would regard as 'fair', which is far different than what a single mother earning $30,000 would regard as 'fair'.

Judge--I agree that a flat tax would not address people who do not pay their income taxes. However, a sales tax is very regressive and would be extremely unpopular, especially if we exempted groceries, prescription drugs, etc. to make it more 'fair'.
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My last contribution to this discussion (in the spirit of Dr. Dirt's previous post) will simply be some additional resources addressing some points made by others. Gut feeling says no one is going to change their minds in this thread. P.S.
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