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The W - Pro Wrestling - Lashing out?
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BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4385 days
Last activity: 4385 days
#1 Posted on
I agree with Jericho on many points. People around the internet ARE too negative, it's downright ridiculous. That's why I like it here, it's nowhere near as negative as most places. Jericho's commentary opened my eyes, as did the guy (sorry, don't remember) that pointed out there we are not OWED a great sports entertainment company. It's simple really, if you don't like it, don't watch it, don't come around and ruin it for everyone else with your negativity. I've ripped Brock Lesnar non-stop, but I'm stopping, and why? Cause I'm sure many people enjoy him. Not only that, but I complained that they won't push new people and now they are, so I'm not going to bitch about it. It's hypocritical. The simple fact is you're not going to like everything, anyone who likes everything the WWE does is just as dumb as someone who hates everything they do. But, there will NEVER be anything that EVERYONE hates and we all need to realize that. Sure, we have the right to complain, but we don't have the right to sit on here and bash the effort that these guys put forth night in and night out. Can we hate on lack of effort? Damn right. Can we hate because someone slipped on the ropes, I don't think we can. There's a fine line between being a critical fan and being a dickhead and I'll admit I've crossed it at times. Chris Jericho is right, I don't care if you're offended by his comments, if we (as in the internet community as a whole) have made him this mad and turned him off to the internet completely, than there's a problem. That's all there is to it. Jericho has long been known as a fan-friendly superstar and that's ruined. We all need to step back from ourselves and re-evaluate why we watch wrestling. I watch it because, even at it's worse this year, the WWE is STILL more entertaining than anything else I do, in my opinion. If you don't like it, don't watch it, don't ruin it for me, or anyone else that enjoys it. The simple fact is were not owed this stuff. Watching wrestling is not a right, it's a privlage. No one is holding a gun to your head. You can make the argument that you pay money for this stuff and thus you can complain, but no one forced you to pay said cash. If you don't like something, fine, but don't act like no one should. I guess that's what I'm saying. Hell, to be honest, I'm not sure what I'm saying anymore, this is turnning into a rant and I'm going to wrap it up. I think you see my point.



HOLLY: How do you like me now?
COLE: You're a jerk Holly!
ME: (sigh) Cole ruins everything!
Promote this thread!
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

Since last post: 2028 days
Last activity: 1680 days
#2 Posted on
I pretty much agree with you. I try to complain about the general trends and not specific wrestlers. The things that right now bug me the most are the no selling in the ME level and the Euro and tag team divisions.
And like all people on this site there are some wrestlers I want pushed and others I want cut. But I have nothing against any wrestlers as people except for Sid Eudy.



I just have 13 words for you. How much wood would a woodchuch chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
AndrewGilkison
Linguica








Since: 20.6.02

Since last post: 3473 days
Last activity: 2748 days
#3 Posted on
Wrestlers bashing fans for their opinions and saying they are "too negative" makes them out to be stupid, insecure, and childish.

If my negativity is ruining the Internet for Jericho, then it's Jericho's problem, not mine. If he truly is upset because some clowns on the Torch feedback thought his match with Rob was the worst match of his career, then he has other issues that he needs to work out (keep in mind that Jericho could be working us) and I am not to be blamed because he is upset.

Bottom line is that this is America and the costumer is always right when it comes to businesses like wrestling that fall under the "supply and demand" means of generating revenue. One man's match of the year candidate is another man's worst match of the year candidate. That is the way it is. Wrestlers and fans that have a problem with that can "get the F out" because that isn't going to change.

I don't need to re-evaluate why I watch wrestling because I know why I watch wrestling. I watch it for entertainment, whether it's actual matches or storylines or whatever. If WWE and their wrestlers are not meeting those expectations, then I am not going to be afraid to say so, no matter who it might piss off.
kokolums2
Bauerwurst








Since: 10.6.02

Since last post: 3510 days
Last activity: 3510 days
#4 Posted on
Hey don't worry. Many people have been taking you up on your offer and have been tuning out for months now. Do you not see the decline in ratings/attendance as any kind of a negative thing?

See, that statement is backwards. Its not that the FANS are OWED a great sports entertainment company. Its the COMPANY that is not OWED the fan's money. The fans are voting with their wallets. If the company thinks the solution is to blame the fans, as Jericho's comments suggest, they're dead.
Scorpio
Boudin rouge








Since: 18.2.02
From: Laurel, MD, USA

Since last post: 3866 days
Last activity: 3817 days
#5 Posted on

So, anyone else come here expecting a thread about Lash LeRoux?




PMMJ

"Nothing remains interesting where anything may happen." -H.G. Wells

Jackson
Sujuk








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 1991 days
Last activity: 1517 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
I did. I figured it would be about Lash's weight gain. Well, that and the fact that there was already a perfectly fine Jericho thread.



Bubbles? Oh come on Sharon! Im Ozzy Osbourne the Prince of Fucking Darkness. Evil, evil, more fucking evil not a boatload of fucking bubbles man.
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

Since last post: 4467 days
Last activity: 4377 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by AndrewGilkison
    I don't need to re-evaluate why I watch wrestling because I know why I watch wrestling. I watch it for entertainment, whether it's actual matches or storylines or whatever. If WWE and their wrestlers are not meeting those expectations, then I am not going to be afraid to say so, no matter who it might piss off.

Okay, I tried to make this point in another thread and it seems the *ONLY* person who got it (at least, the only person who posted and indicated that he or she got it) was Tarnish.

I'll say this another way.

If you don't like the product the WWF is putting out there's only ONE consistent thing you can do to affect change: Stop Watching the Programming.

Bitching about it on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD does ZERO bit of good. They don't care about your opinions. Really they don't. Bitching until you're blue in the face does absolutely NOTHING.

Why?

Because at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, you're still tuning into the product. You're still watching. You're still a number. You're still supporting their crappy product. Which indicates there is still an audience. Which puts ad revenue in WWE's pocket. Which keeps TNN or UPN from cancelling the show. Which tells the WWF creative team that they can continue churning out the crap they've been churning out for well over a year.

The ratings will have to drop so drastically, the audience will have to diminish so greatly before the higher-ups realize they have to re-evaluate what they're doing and change things.

Bitch all you want. That's your right and fine and good. But your bitching doesn't do a goddamn thing except let everyone know you have an opinon.

NOT watching the show, not buying the PPVs, not going to house shows and not buying merchandise sends a bigger, louder and crystal clear message to the WWE that *YOU* do not like the product. THAT is TRULY what "supply and demand" is.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42

    Originally posted by Papercuts!
    If you don't like the product the WWF is putting out there's only ONE consistent thing you can do to affect change: Stop Watching the Programming.


You don't like progressive tax? GIVE UP ALL YOUR OTHER FREEDOMS AND LEAVE AMERICA! IT'S THE ONLY CHOICE! Who cares if it's fair or not that you have to leave the country over a problem that you have every right to address publicly, dammit!



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

Since last post: 12 days
Last activity: 2 hours
AIM:  
#9 Posted on
Papercuts: And exactly how much good does bitching about bitching on a message board do?


Seriously, I think you miss the point of why most people come to a board like this. It's not in the grand hope of somehow influencing the direction of the company. I personally leave those sorts of delusions to Scott Keith. We come here to share our opinions with other people seemingly of the same interest as ourselves. Theoretically everyone who posts on this board is a wrestling fan, regardless of exactly which sort of product we like. And thus we are going to have opinions which run the gamut from hateful to ecstatic. And the whole point of this board is to share these opinions. At least that's the only point I can think of. I guess it could serve solely as a news clearinghouse, but really there's a lot of other sites which serve this purpose already. No, this is an opinion site. A place to come and vent if as a WWE fan you were not at all happy with this evening's Raw. Or to mention how much you really loved the women's match tonight and how it was probably the best tag match in the WWE in a year or so. But either way, there is no other reason for this board to exist than for the sharing of these opinions. Now if the Zims disagree with my assessment, let them say so, I will gladly adhere by any mission statement they lay out. But otherwise I honestly don't know what people want. I guess the WWE wants us all to shut up and only speak if we have something nice to say, which I understand from their end. But I have to say I'm befuddled by fans who have issues with the fact that other people are expressing their issues with the product, and feel a need to make such a big deal about those complaints. If you like the product, and want to say you do, cool, we'll both make our points about it. If you dislike the product but don't like to say anything about it, that's cool too. But to get in a huff because I happen to be vocal about my issues with the current product seems unproductive at best, and unnecessarily hostile at worst. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? To remove criticism of WWE from the net? To bring up to some arbitrary level of high discussion? To shut down msg boards? Or just to post an angry diatribe about msg boards instead of joining us in our anti-WWE cacophony?


(edited by spf2119 on 25.6.02 0012)


Anyone remember the joy of seeing him bash the Undertaker's motorcycle with his sledgemhammer and doing no damage and being all like, "Mjolnir will not break thine cycle? I say thee NAY!" and dumping it off the stage. - Enojado Viento says the funniest thing I've ever read on Wienerville.
Papercuts!
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Springfield, Mo.

Since last post: 4467 days
Last activity: 4377 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    don't like progressive tax? GIVE UP ALL YOUR OTHER FREEDOMS AND LEAVE AMERICA! IT'S THE ONLY CHOICE! Who cares if it's fair or not that you have to leave the country over a problem that you have every right to address publicly, dammit!
Okay, you're being difficult here on purpose. You're smarter than this. There's a HUGE difference between ENTERTAINMENT and government policy, my friend. You know this. I'm saying VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET here because THAT is all the WWE cares about.

Track down the other "Jericho isn't happy thread" and read my Long John Silver's analogy. Maybe that will clear it up for you.

I'm still amazed that you either totally missed my point, misunderstood me or have to be that difficult.



--Jason Baldwin
Writer of Stuff About Comic Books
AndrewGilkison
Linguica








Since: 20.6.02

Since last post: 3473 days
Last activity: 2748 days
#11 Posted on
Papercuts!, my poor ignorant friend. *shakes head in shame*





"Not a great worker, but one hell of a gimmick"
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1988 days
Last activity: 1922 days
#12 Posted on
"If my negativity is ruining the Internet for Jericho, then it's Jericho's problem, not mine. If he truly is upset because some clowns on the Torch feedback thought his match with Rob was the worst match of his career, then he has other issues that he needs to work out (keep in mind that Jericho could be working us) and I am not to be blamed because he is upset."

To counterpoint: if the WWE's substandard shows are ruining the company for you, that's your problem, not their's.








Old School's Film Quote O' The Week-"Five-foot-nine, I didn't know they stacked shit that high"-R. Lee Ermey as Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, Full Metal Jacket. He obviously hasn't met Tazz.

Yun
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: Just outside Dudleyville

Since last post: 3247 days
Last activity: 3195 days
AIM:  
#13 Posted on

    Originally posted by spf2119
    Papercuts: And exactly how much good does bitching about bitching on a message board do?


    Seriously, I think you miss the point of why most people come to a board like this. It's not in the grand hope of somehow influencing the direction of the company. I personally leave those sorts of delusions to Scott Keith. We come here to share our opinions with other people seemingly of the same interest as ourselves. Theoretically everyone who posts on this board is a wrestling fan, regardless of exactly which sort of product we like. And thus we are going to have opinions which run the gamut from hateful to ecstatic. And the whole point of this board is to share these opinions. At least that's the only point I can think of. I guess it could serve solely as a news clearinghouse, but really there's a lot of other sites which serve this purpose already. No, this is an opinion site. A place to come and vent if as a WWE fan you were not at all happy with this evening's Raw. Or to mention how much you really loved the women's match tonight and how it was probably the best tag match in the WWE in a year or so. But either way, there is no other reason for this board to exist than for the sharing of these opinions. Now if the Zims disagree with my assessment, let them say so, I will gladly adhere by any mission statement they lay out. But otherwise I honestly don't know what people want. I guess the WWE wants us all to shut up and only speak if we have something nice to say, which I understand from their end. But I have to say I'm befuddled by fans who have issues with the fact that other people are expressing their issues with the product, and feel a need to make such a big deal about those complaints. If you like the product, and want to say you do, cool, we'll both make our points about it. If you dislike the product but don't like to say anything about it, that's cool too. But to get in a huff because I happen to be vocal about my issues with the current product seems unproductive at best, and unnecessarily hostile at worst. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? To remove criticism of WWE from the net? To bring up to some arbitrary level of high discussion? To shut down msg boards? Or just to post an angry diatribe about msg boards instead of joining us in our anti-WWE cacophony?


    (edited by spf2119 on 25.6.02 0012)



The point is not "Don't say anything negative" it's "Quit ignoring the good stuff" Nothing, not even the old WCW at its worst, can possibly be as bad as the average smark makes the average WWE show out to be. I think the problem is not an overabundance of crap, but that the net community are looking for crap even in the best of segments and, thus, it's more blatant to them whereas someone like me, who tries to remain optimistic and find something good about even the worst segments, the good stuff sticks out more than the bad stuff. It's all about attitude. If you watch with a positive attitude (like I do), you'll find yourself enjoying even a Hogan/Nash match... if you have a negative attitude (like a certain Canadian whose initials are SK) then even Angle/Benoit for the Undisputed Title isn't going to be enough for you.

That said, Weinerville is usually better at recognizing the good and accomodating marks and pro-Sports-Entertainment opinions than most boards, and you all deserve credit for that.



Everything's cool when you're Yun [point] Cheol [point] Su [point]
BobHollySTILLRules
Bockwurst








Since: 3.1.02
From: C-Bus, Ohio

Since last post: 4385 days
Last activity: 4385 days
#14 Posted on
Yun: "The point is not "Don't say anything negative" it's "Quit ignoring the good stuff" "

That was my point exactly and having re-read my post, I did a very poor job of actually saying that. I was upset at the fact that Jericho was all pissed off and the reaction seemed to be full-out "defense mode" instead of at least considering some of the points he made. All in all, things have calmed down, I'm not going anywhere, Wienerville is still the best place I've ever been to when it comes to talking about wrestling. I'd just like to see a smidge more positivity. Half-full philosophies, if you will. Oh well, it's all good...or is it all bad? I'm confused.



HOLLY: How do you like me now?
COLE: You're a jerk Holly!
ME: (sigh) Cole ruins everything!
Fantomas
Polska kielbasa








Since: 23.2.02
From: New York

Since last post: 4395 days
Last activity: 2991 days
#15 Posted on
I don't understand why people get so upset when people complain about the WWE. You say 'if you don't like it, don't watch it'. Well if you don't like complaints... don't read them.

And who cares if some guy wants to talk about how the WWE sucks? It's his life, let him waste it.. You can't save him. If you're looking for all 'Yay WWE!!!' posts, there must be an official WWE forum out there, right? Go there then.

I agree with the comments about Scott Keith in this thread, he is about as negative as you could get. And he does seem desperate to try to parlay his internet gig into a 'real' job, and it does come off as very pathetic. But I put up with it... The thing I like about his and CRZ's recaps is they notice stuff that I don't, and they generally have useful knowledge or informed theories as to WHY an angle goes a certain way that I would never have thought of.
AndrewGilkison
Linguica








Since: 20.6.02

Since last post: 3473 days
Last activity: 2748 days
#16 Posted on
I thought this was America where everyone had the right to their opinion, no matter how negitive or positive it might be. I didn't know I was under some moral obligation to be more positive and less negative, but I guess I should've known better.

When WWE gives me a reason to be positive like when they give Booker T interview time, or feature Molly on TV, or put on a great match, I give praise. When the give me a reason to be negative like when Vince books a "jerk-off" angle like the "Mr. McMahon Kiss My Ass Club" or gives a push to a wrestler that I don't want to see, or screws up an angle that I was looking forward to, I don't give praise. Bottom line.

I mean what the hell are these message boards for anyway if you're not allowed to speak your mind and give your honest opinion? I am not going to sugarcoat my opinions because some people here might not like the negativity involved.

Some people, wrestlers and Wienerville posters alike, just need to get a grip. Can't we all just get along?



"Not a great worker, but one hell of a gimmick"
Debaser
Mettwurst








Since: 22.3.02

Since last post: 4457 days
Last activity: 4421 days
#17 Posted on

    Originally posted by AndrewGilkison
    I thought this was America where everyone had the right to their opinion, no matter how negitive or positive it might be. I didn't know I was under some moral obligation to be more positive and less negative, but I guess I should've known better.


This argument is both common and spurious. I don't mean to direct it at you personally, because you've posted 6 times and I have no idea how positive or negative you are, but now's as good a time as any to make this point:

Nobody telling anybody to "stop being negative" is making a moral judgement. Nobody telling anybody to "stop being negative" is trying to squash your rights. Nobody telling anybody to "stop being negative" is saying anything other than "I would prefer if you were less negative".

See, you have your right to say whatever you want (until you piss off one of the Zeds). But everyone else has the right to get irritated and try and convince you to stop saying it (within the same limitations). This is actually a less futile and foolish gesture than complaining incessantly about the WWE on a message board, since the people making the gesture are making it to people who will actually see it.



I don't really understand what Debaser said but I agree with him.

- Santa Sangre
kazhayashi81
Potato korv








Since: 17.6.02
From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Since last post: 2703 days
Last activity: 2653 days
AIM:  
#18 Posted on

    Originally posted by Papercuts!

    I'll say this another way.

    If you don't like the product the WWF is putting out there's only ONE consistent thing you can do to affect change: Stop Watching the Programming.

    Bitching about it on an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD does ZERO bit of good. They don't care about your opinions. Really they don't. Bitching until you're blue in the face does absolutely NOTHING.

    Why?

    Because at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, you're still tuning into the product. You're still watching. You're still a number. You're still supporting their crappy product. Which indicates there is still an audience. Which puts ad revenue in WWE's pocket. Which keeps TNN or UPN from cancelling the show. Which tells the WWF creative team that they can continue churning out the crap they've been churning out for well over a year.



Outside of wrestling and other sports, I don't watch a lot of TV. Joss Whedon programming(Buffy, Angel), the Shield, South Park, and the occassional Simpsons rerun. I'd rather watch bad wrestling than just about anything else. I've been an overly obsessed wrestling fan since I was 7. I'm not someone that's turned off the TV for wrestling ever. But that doesn't mean I, as a fan, don't have the basic right to feedback and critique the product. Quite frankly, if I think the show and effort put on were sub-par, I'm going to say so. Not because I "want wrestling to die" as Jericho's post insinuated. I'll still be there no matter what. No matter how much wrestling has tried to kill it's fanbase(see: Russo WCW, Dungeon of Doom, 1991 Pre-Flair WWF...), there are fans like me that love wrestling and will watch every week regardless. So when I say a show was bad, I'm not comparing it to other TV programming, but to other wrestling shows. Because I love wrestling. Even bad wrestling.




"You can save the planet, I'll save your seat"- Uncle Kracker, Better Days
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 74 days
Last activity: 74 days
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
If I think the WWF product is bad, should I insult people who praise it?



Mean Gene: "You know, I don't think it's a question - Goldberg, I don't think it's a question of who's next, I think it's a question of who's left?"
Goldberg: "No, see, that's where you're wrong. It ain't who's left, it's - WHO'S NEXT?"

"Just how hardcore am I? Well this morning, I drank milk that was two days past the expiration!"
-Norman Smiley

"She is one of them! She's CANADIAN!"
-Stevie Ray
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

Since last post: 5 hours
Last activity: 5 hours
AIM:  
ICQ:  
Y!:
#20 Posted on

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    If I think the WWF product is bad, should I insult people who praise it?
Umm, well, I'd prefer you didn't actually.



©CRZ™
Visit [slash] wrestling
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I think it would be a nice change-of-pace to have a few heavyweights in the ladder match. Most others have been mid-sized guys with maybe Kane being the only larger heavyweight to be in the match.
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