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The W - Pro Wrestling - Kicking out of finishers
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Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#1 Posted on
This is somewhat similar to the No Selling post, but has anyone else noticed how people in general judge kickouts to finishers? For example: Austin stunning Angle and Angle kicking out, Triple H pedigrees Jericho and Jericho kicks out, or Rock his the Rock Bottom on Booker and Booker kicks out -- for all three of these, on messageboards and sites and the like everyone talks about how this elevated Jericho, Angle, and Booker. But, reverse it -- Rock kicks out of the Ghetto Blaster, Triple H doesn't tap to the Walls, or Austin kicks out of the Angle Slam and everyone complains how they "killed the move!" It seems a little hypocritical for everyone to claim that when an upper midcarder/lower maineventer kicks out of a top guys' move its elevation, but when a top guy kicks out of an upper midcarder/lower maineventer's move its killing the move.



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Since: 2.1.02
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#2 Posted on
Finishers just do not seem to have the "reverence" they used to. Saw Jericho kicks out of Edge's SPEAR the other day and thought about this very question myself.

Everyone used to have a dynamite, killer finisher that always closed the match. Some looked painful, like the Powerbomb or Spear, while others were just downright goofy like the Hogan legdrop or the People's elbow.

Whatever happened I don't know, but it seems that there is no such thing as a finisher anymore, at least not by what I thought was the definition of a finisher. (unless you count the brass knucks, which always seem to work)



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Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

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#3 Posted on
I remember the first time something like that shocked me- it was when Rock kicked out of the Stunner at one of the Wrestlemanias. Until then, I don't remember anyone kicking out of the Stunner since Steve had been in the main event scene. But the way they did it... Austin took a long time to cover Rock so it kinda explained how he could have kicked out. But Austin sold the shock like champ- he had the same look on his face that I did!! "WHAT THE FUCK????" I read in Rock's book on how he proposed that to Austin- that he would kick out of the stunner and Austin would kick out of the Rock-Bottom... and it kicked the fans' asses, too!

But since then, it's been over used.
Weevil
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Since: 19.3.02
From: Ireland

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#4 Posted on

    Originally posted by Scott Summets
    This is somewhat similar to the No Selling post, but has anyone else noticed how people in general judge kickouts to finishers? For example: Austin stunning Angle and Angle kicking out, Triple H pedigrees Jericho and Jericho kicks out, or Rock his the Rock Bottom on Booker and Booker kicks out -- for all three of these, on messageboards and sites and the like everyone talks about how this elevated Jericho, Angle, and Booker. But, reverse it -- Rock kicks out of the Ghetto Blaster, Triple H doesn't tap to the Walls, or Austin kicks out of the Angle Slam and everyone complains how they "killed the move!" It seems a little hypocritical for everyone to claim that when an upper midcarder/lower maineventer kicks out of a top guys' move its elevation, but when a top guy kicks out of an upper midcarder/lower maineventer's move its killing the move.


The Rock Bottom, Stunner and Pedigree are established killers so if a wrestler kicks out of them it makes him look tough instead of devalueing the move.
On the other hand Lesnar's F5 has only been tested against midcarders so if Rock was to kick out of it at Summerslam it would make the move look ineffective.
Does anyone buy Jericho's finishers anymore? i doubt it because they have proven insufficient against the top stars time and time again.
chuckc14
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Nashville

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#5 Posted on
Jericho has a finisher?? I'll be damned.



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Since: 4.1.02

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#6 Posted on
Here's my take. Finishers are perfectly fine to be kicked out of. As long as the match has told the story leading up to it. Austin/Rock I was a long feud that was basically, what, almost a half years worth of buildup? Since they feuded for the IC title. I think as long as the match warrants it, and as long as the various factors (ref bump, wrestler who has delivered the finisher is so out of it that they can't recover in time to get the pinfall, interferance, WHATEVER) have built up, it's perfectly allright.
The only time I don't buy kicking out of finishers is when the guy does it right away with no build-up to, or the match ends abruptly soon afterwards. Hogan hulking up on Rock was great because the match wasn't over immediately after, it just was a transition and built suspense for who was going to win. The new master of the finisher no-sell is Kurt Angle. His work with Austin/Edge/Benoit/Rock/Triple H proves this. The guy has mastered no-selling the finisher and even doing it in chains so that you almost don't know when the match is going to end. I mean, I still see a guy do a finisher and think it's going to be the end of a match. That's the whole purpose. Which segueways into my next thought.
Jericho's finishers suck. The guy hasn't had a good one in a loooong time. I can't remember a time when a person tapped to the Wall's of Jericho as quickly as they did the Crippler Crossface. Everyone and their mother no-sold that move at some point (except Angle, Angle just never lost because EVERY single time the ref was distracted). Then there's the moonsualt, who hasn't kicked out or raised the knee on THAT one. The Breakdown, I started to like this one, but as soon as it was built-up so we all thought of it as a "devastating manuever" someone no-sold it and there went it's chances as a good finisher. I can't even tell you what he's doing now, but he needs to work on something. Because having a good finisher is part of what makes up every single of the OTHER so-called main eventers. The only thing is, building the move up over a period of time where it's not no-sold so people can buy it. Just because a move has a name, doesn't make it a finisher.
So, I don't think a guy without a decent finisher, that can be no-sold, given the right amount of circumstances to add drama, can BE a main eventer. For a long time Booker didn't do the Book-End. He brought it back occasionally, but now is, apparantly, been replaced by the Houston Hangover.

I think as long as the match tells the right story, it's okay to no-sell a finisher. But, there has to be a clear reason why and circumstances leading up to as well as some possible consequence later in the match.





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Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#7 Posted on
Well, look at Benoit: his feuds with Jericho, Austin, The Rock, Triple H and Kurt Angle pretty much made his WWF career worthwhile. And look at Benoit's Moves Of Doom:

The Dragon Suplex: Rarely used. Triple H got out of it at No Mercy 2000 because Benoit suplexed him too close to the ropes and HHH's legs got into 'em.
The Rolling Germans: Commonly used. Very hard to get out of. Austin took 10 on Smackdown in 2001.
The Diving Headbutt: Rarely used. Easy to get out of because Benoit knocks himself out delivering the move.
The Crossface: Hardly anybody gets out. Correction: NOBODY GETS OUT. Nobody's no-sold it. Jericho got choked out in it at Judgment Day 2000. Austin had to be saved via the Montreal Finish on RAW in 2001. The only way out is to get to the ropes. If the move's delivered in the middle of the ring: it's curtains for you, mister.

See? Benoit's BIG FINISH, the Crossface, has been built up to the point where it's a killer finish. So, if somebody like RVD or Booker T ALMOST gets out of it, it elevates them. Same as Benoit kicking out of the Pedigree would elevate him.



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WyldeWolf1
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Since: 20.6.02
From: Florida

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#8 Posted on
Personally, I like the fact that a wrestler's signature move doesn't necessarily mean the match is over. It actually makes sense in some cases. For example, Edge's spear on Smackdown was delivered early in the match, when Jericho wouldn't be as worn down. Usually, when a wrestler kicks out of a finisher late in a match it makes me think, "Wow, this guy REALLY wants to win this one...he's not staying down!" I find it to be powerful psychology in many cases (especially during a big blowoff match).



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Retro Rob
Linguica








Since: 18.7.02

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#9 Posted on
I don't like finshers. Trademark moves are OK, but I don't like it when one move almost always ends a match because it limits crowd participation. Back in the day, transition moves would sometimes lead to pinfalls, so fans would never know when the finish was coming. They would be on the edge of their seats for most of the pinfall attempts. Finshers pretty much killed that. Now if HHH were to DDT the Rock, the crowd wouldn't make a sound because it wasn't a pedigree and/or a weapon wasn't involved.



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RawLo
Salami








Since: 9.7.02
From: San Diego, CA

Since last post: 3650 days
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#10 Posted on
Retro is right... you just know that the match ain't over until someone hits a finisher...
Roll-up pin or small package- it won't matter. They didn't hit a finisher yet. It's true, it can be anticlimactic.
Jubuki
Kolbasz








Since: 16.7.02

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#11 Posted on
Kicking out of stuff as long as it's there to ADD to the story rather than limit it. WM 17's main was a good example of adding to it - it was a damned good way to put Rock & Austin on their own level, above any and everyone else. Bad examples would be along the lines of Bret vs. Shawn 11/92, or Bret vs. Hennig 8/91 - Bret kicks out of the teardrop suplex, Bret kicks out of the Perfectplex, but neither Shawn nor Curt had a chance to at least writhe around in the Sharpshooter long enough to put any suspense in it. Once Bret kicked out, you knew he was winning.



Chris
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Chourico








Since: 3.1.02

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#12 Posted on
Rock always gets out of the crippler crossface-ALWAYS! I can't remember the last time there was a straight clean submission win in a main event.




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Since: 16.7.02

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#13 Posted on
Angle/Austin at one of the PPVs last year? Or was it not the main?



Chris
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Since: 4.1.02

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#14 Posted on
That wasn't the main event. Booker/Rock was. Plus Austin never technically lost, his hand was under the ropes.

The bottom line is there is NEVER a clean finish in WWE main events. Too many of the top guys are afraid to lose their heat and I can see their point. On the other hand it'd be nice to see a clean finish every ONCE in awhile. Although technically Triple H went over Jericho clean at WM, but everyone knows that wasn't the REAL main event. Rock/Hogan was.



I RESPECT your opinion. Please respect mine. Or feel the wrath of Buddha!

J-Lo and Ja' Rule are the worst singing/rapping duo I've ever seen in my life (my response to the "totally live" performance of that annoying "Ain't it Funny" song at last year's VMA's. The show where everybody goes home happy and the winner's aren't really winners, they're just people randomly selected based upon their pop status).
A-MOL
Frankfurter








Since: 26.6.02
From: York, England

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#15 Posted on
Triple H at No Mercy '00. Steph gives HHH a tape. 30 mins later, after studying the tape, HHH nods knowlingly and goes out to fight Benoit. Three Crossfaces were reversed in that match.

How come no-one thought to watch Benoit before then?



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Since: 25.7.02
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#16 Posted on
Did "The Game" really need to watch a tape to find out how Benoit does the crossface? Did Eddy find a tape on the Rock Bottom? You think that Chris nowinski would have thought to hook the dreaded triangle choke on the Undertaker...or is it to complicated of a move to use?
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
i hated when austin could bust out a stunner 5 seconds into a match [or clear the ring full of alliance members w/ a stunner to each] and end it right there...

i like matches that start out slow, building to big moves and ending with a move so devistating, they can't get up [like the f5]

maybe i'd like King's Road or lucha or something...



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#18 Posted on
Speaking of crossfaces, tonight RVD got out of it twice. First he was able to break it against the ropes. Then he was able to power and manuever out of it and turn counter with a type of cradle. Benoit turned the tables on that though =o)




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Since: 29.7.02
From: Washington, DC

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#19 Posted on
Kicking out of a guy's finisher in a high stakes match can really add to the drama of a thing. Of course the most important aspect of this spot is to have a guy with a really OVER finisher to use it with. Combine that with a dramatic match that has decent build and you can really pop a crowd. Still, it is something that has been OVERused in the last year or so.



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Since: 4.1.02

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#20 Posted on
I also think there's a big difference in kicking out of a finisher and getting out of a guy's submission, even if it is his finisher. Getting our of submissions at the right time can add drama as well. Plus, with submissions they generally try to get it back on, or eventually do and the person taps anyways. I don't see getting out of a submission as being a big deal. Although I can see your point.



I RESPECT your opinion. Please respect mine. Or feel the wrath of Buddha!

J-Lo and Ja' Rule are the worst singing/rapping duo I've ever seen in my life (my response to the "totally live" performance of that annoying "Ain't it Funny" song at last year's VMA's. The show where everybody goes home happy and the winner's aren't really winners, they're just people randomly selected based upon their pop status).
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