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28.7.14 0947
The W - Current Events & Politics - Kenneth Lay Dies at 64
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AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.66
Look, don't know the guy, but I know there was a tremendous amount of hate for him during the trial recently.

He had a family and friends like any other person. I would rather have seen him punished and perhaps we might have learned about how the company was able to collapse a little more.




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TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
So he died while "vacationing" in Colorado (news.yahoo.com)? Seeing as how he was already convicted and awaiting sentencing, shouldn't he have been in jail? What the fuck?

Death is obviously unfortunate, but fuck this guy. He died without paying for his crimes, a lifetime of gluttony and greed. From the story, it sounds like Lay, despite being a disgusting, piece-of-shit thief, still died with $100 million in personal debt. I guess it's just one more group of people for him to give the finger to on his way out.

Lay maintained his innocence in the Enron scandal until he died. Even if he didn't know anything about it, he as CEO was still responsible for it, but never showed any remorse. He didn't appear to give a damn. At his trial, his defense was basically, "yeah I'm greedy, and I'm addicted to it."

Yeah he had family, and I feel sorry for the and hope they all learn from the collosal life of shit their fallen relative led. Fuck Kenneth Lay.
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.08
AWA, if this were a run-of-the-mill conman who had ripped off countless unsuspecting people through some nefarious scheme, would you feel the same defensive tendencies? That's all this guy was.

I'm sorry, but the guy deserves the sympathy in death that he did in life. I feel for his family, but him dying of a heart attack at his holiday home(!) is the ultimate fuck-you to the people whose lives he destroyed. Some of the near-eulogies reporting this are really quite ridiculous.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
AWArulz
Knackwurst








Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.59
Hero, this is a 64 year old guy, served in the military, went from a nothing background to being an executive in several companies - finally working with the merge of a couple companies, one of which he was CEO of to form Enron. He had a bunch of kids and since he was an old guy, a bunch more grandkids.

I am sure he did bad stuff. He got caught in the mentality of "I am the boss, so what is good for me is good for the company". He probably started innocently enough under the rules, trading stock options for cash because he got into the american dream (heck, everyone's dream) of having a hell of a lot more than the Jones.

And it got out of hand. Then he probably tried to fix it and it got worse and eventually blew up.

Implicit? Yes. Guilty? He was convicted. I don't, though, believe a guy like that was evil. Now, maybe if one or two of his kids came out and said Dad was an evil bastard who ignored us and mentally abused us - I dunno.

A "run of the mill con-man" might get my sympathy too. But this is a guy who, seemingly, lived 64 years, did pretty great stuff for a lot of them, and at the end of his life was involved in this con. Yeah, Enron was a mess - maybe from the start.

I guess I just have to say it seems he was more like me than I like - he just wanted a bigger TV set - and was willing to push the rules in his favor to get it. I would hope I wouldn't do that, but if I did, I don't think I would be evil.



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.08
He didn't push the rules, though. He knowingly defrauded thousands of people and destroyed his employees' lives just to make more money. I understand how you feel-the mentality of wanting to earn more is foremost today, and in 90% of cases it's a positive thing-but the Enron situation wasn't just a coupla guys trying to skim a few bucks. The company was a fraud from start to finish, with these men using other peoples' livelihoods to make themselves rich. It wasn't a "this is good for the company" mentality-or if it was, they were incredibly dumb, as even an idiot could see that the massive crimes they were perpetrating would in no way make for a stable company. It was a "fuck everyone else, I'm gonna grab as much cash as I can" mentality. And since the house of cards fell, he's shown no remorse for his actions.

I'd recommend watching ENRON: THE SMARTEST GUYS IN THE ROOM. It's a fascinating doc, and details just why men like Lay deserve no sympathy for their plight.

(edited by oldschoolhero on 6.7.06 0400)


To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 3 days
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Hero, this is a 64 year old guy, served in the military, went from a nothing background to being an executive in several companies - finally working with the merge of a couple companies, one of which he was CEO of to form Enron. He had a bunch of kids and since he was an old guy, a bunch more grandkids.

    I am sure he did bad stuff. He got caught in the mentality of "I am the boss, so what is good for me is good for the company". He probably started innocently enough under the rules, trading stock options for cash because he got into the american dream (heck, everyone's dream) of having a hell of a lot more than the Jones.

    And it got out of hand. Then he probably tried to fix it and it got worse and eventually blew up.

    Implicit? Yes. Guilty? He was convicted. I don't, though, believe a guy like that was evil. Now, maybe if one or two of his kids came out and said Dad was an evil bastard who ignored us and mentally abused us - I dunno.

    A "run of the mill con-man" might get my sympathy too. But this is a guy who, seemingly, lived 64 years, did pretty great stuff for a lot of them, and at the end of his life was involved in this con. Yeah, Enron was a mess - maybe from the start.

    I guess I just have to say it seems he was more like me than I like - he just wanted a bigger TV set - and was willing to push the rules in his favor to get it. I would hope I wouldn't do that, but if I did, I don't think I would be evil.


Maybe some of this would hold water if Lay had shown any remorse whatsoever in the time since his crimes were uncovered. But he hasn't. His incredible personal debt was made public, he had a debt to society that couldn't be measured in dollars and he was about to spend the rest of his life in jail for ruining the lives of thousands of people so he could get "a bigger TV set," and yet he's just chumming it up at a resort in Aspen? If he's such a swell guy, shouldn't he be trying to pay off some of his debt on his way out, rather than pile up more of it?

Lay isn't evil for pushing the rules - he's evil for straight up ignoring them and acting as if nothing applied to him. If he had snuck in a few extra bucks without trashing the lives of so many beneath him, maybe I wouldn't use the word evil, but as it is he has got to be among the most greedy, self-centered, selfish, corrupt, ignorant, clueless pieces of trash in recent human history. I don't have enough trust in corporations to go for your assumption that he was on the straight and narrow before Enron. I tend to fall the opposite way - I don't think that kind of greed and arrogance develop overnight.
Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 19 days
Last activity: 3 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.75
His incredible personal debt was made public, he had a debt to society that couldn't be measured in dollars and he was about to spend the rest of his life in jail for ruining the lives of thousands of people so he could get "a bigger TV set," and yet he's just chumming it up at a resort in Aspen?

A couple of things. First, I'm sure he accrued the $100m in debt when he was CEO of Enron. At the time, he had Enron stock worth much more than that. And, that would have appeared to be good collateral to anyone. Once the stock collapsed, he had only the debt. I wouldn't live like this, but someone worth several hundred million dollars having $100m in debt is not out of line.

And, second, he wasn't staying at some resort/vacation home he owned. He was staying at a friend's ranch. Say what you want, but the judge granted him permission to spend a few months outside of jail before sentencing and also granted him permission to go to Colorado. So, you should direct your anger towards the judge for that.

Lastly, and TBF is going to love this, it seems that since Lay pled not guilty and died before sentencing, his conviction will be erased. The rationale is that the deceased didn't have the opportunity to appeal. Therefore, it appears that Lay will have no criminal record.

I just don't understand where all the bile and invective comes from, unless you or an immediate family member were directly affected. It's a complete waste of time and energy. Lay is dead, what's done is done, and any remaining judgement is out of our hands. Let him go. And, from a legal perspective, in order to defend himself, he had to present a strong public persona. At the end of the day, only two people truly know his motives (one if you're an atheist) and none of use are in that group. I think he's scum too, but that opinion really isn't relevant anymore. Like AWA, I still wouldn't call him evil.



"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.08
This is the problem with corporate crime-it can do just as much damage as any other major offence, and yet people shrug it off with "well if you're not personally affected then why doe sit matter?". Think of all the people whose lives he destroyed for his personal gain. Just because he didn't pick up a gun and shoot them doesn't mean he's absolved of the wrongs he did.



To those who say people wouldn't look; they wouldn't be interested; they're too complacent, indifferent and insulated, I can only reply: There is, in one reporter's opinion, considerable evidence against that contention. But even if they are right, what have they got to lose? Because if they are right, and this instrument is good for nothing but to entertain, amuse and insulate, then the tube is flickering now and we will soon see that the whole struggle is lost. This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires, and lights, in a box.-Edward R. Murrow
Guru Zim
SQL Dejection
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
I won't believe he's dead until they show his corpse on TV like they did with Zarqawi. If I was a month away from a life sentence, I'd figure out how to pull the fake death off really quickly.



Ignorance is bliss for you, hell for me.
JoshMann
Andouille








Since: 17.11.03
From: Tallahassee, FL

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.02
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I won't believe he's dead until they show his corpse on TV like they did with Zarqawi. If I was a month away from a life sentence, I'd figure out how to pull the fake death off really quickly.


I was going to say this yesterday, but I didn't really want to be the first one out with it, since there's part of me that thinks he's 3/4 of the way to Elvistupac Island by now.

To paraphrase Dean Edward R. Rooney, I want to see this dead CEO firsthand.




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EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.05
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    I won't believe he's dead until they show his corpse on TV like they did with Zarqawi. If I was a month away from a life sentence, I'd figure out how to pull the fake death off really quickly.


This thought crossed my mind too.

And others. (money.cnn.com)



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Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 19 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.75
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    This is the problem with corporate crime-it can do just as much damage as any other major offence, and yet people shrug it off with "well if you're not personally affected then why doe sit matter?". Think of all the people whose lives he destroyed for his personal gain. Just because he didn't pick up a gun and shoot them doesn't mean he's absolved of the wrongs he did.

I feel this is directed at my post, so I'll respond. I never said it only matters to those directly affected. I said that it's pointless to be as angry at Lay as many people are. That accomplishes nothing and certainly does not help the people whose lives he destroyed. It's not within the power of anyone posting here to neither absolve him of guilt nor assign guilt to him. Even the legal system erasing his guilty verdict doesn't absolve him of guilt in any meaningful way.

Personally, I think Fastow and Skilling are an order of magnitude worse people and more deserving of blame than Lay. Those guys absolutely had direct knowledge of what they were doing.

As far as the possibility of a faked death, have they released the autopsy results in their entirety? I think those include photos. It'd have to be a pretty huge conspiracy, too. I think I'm leaning towards dead.



"Teach children that they have great potential because they are human." -Warrior
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.99
I remember as a child being told that if something is too good to be true it probably is. While not absolving these bastards, don't we all share some of the blame in our quest for wealth? Shouldn't something have warned us about this and the other cases like this? They are guilty as hell and at the least we are naive.

And I know it's how America works, but something bothers me re a company that produces nothing, uses others labor and gets rich.



Perception is reality
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
This guy was $100,000,000 in the hole, and now that debt goes to all his kids and grandkids. Hehehehehe.

He was 64 years old. Just because you're on the cusp of being a senior citizen doesn't mean you're special, nor worth more attention in death than somebody younger. Matter of fact, wouldn't be more expected? It's far more tragic when a young person has their life taken from them. None of my friends who've died were Kenneth Lay.

He served in the military. Last I checked, there are about four digits worth of names of guys who died serving in the military in Iraq since 2003. None of them were Kenneth Lay.

Mr. Lay, may you rot in hell. May your family learn humility through paying off your massive debt, and may your great, great grandson ask mine if he want's fries with his burger.



Hold nothing sacred and you'll never be dissapointed. Especially not this statement.
Leroy
Andouille








Since: 7.2.02
From: Huntington, NY

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.74
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    While not absolving these bastards, don't we all share some of the blame in our quest for wealth? Shouldn't something have warned us about this and the other cases like this? They are guilty as hell and at the least we are naive.

    And I know it's how America works, but something bothers me re a company that produces nothing, uses others labor and gets rich.


My experience in dealing with people who have accrued a great deal of wealth has taught me one very important lesson: you don't accumulate tens of millions of dollars or more by playing fair and being a nice guy. You do it by being ruthless, conniving, and underhanded.

Certainly, there are exceptions to this rule. But not many.



"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do."
David Brent, The Office

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions."
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Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.91

Think of all of the people who now have to work until their dying day because this fuckstick screwed them out of their retirement funds.

RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.69
I won't believe he's dead until they show his corpse on TV like they did with Zarqawi. If I was a month away from a life sentence, I'd figure out how to pull the fake death off really quickly.

Come On. Faking your own death is for amateurs. And Elvis

Think of all of the people who now have to work until their dying day because this fuckstick screwed them out of their retirement funds.

The way I see it, I'm (and you'm) supporting them with or without Kenneth Lay. Their "dying day" has nothing to do with it. Or his

FLEA




Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high

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jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.84
    Originally posted by DrDirt
    While not absolving these bastards, don't we all share some of the blame in our quest for wealth?
I just wanted to know what was meant by this statement, so I know whether or not to feel guilty for screwing so many people out of their money and turn myself in to the proper authorities.



I think, therefore, I think I am, at least I think...
ekedolphin
Scrapple








Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.29
Eh, I can't say I'm pissed off that the guy died before he could be punished for his crimes-- because I believe that when he stood before God and God asked him, "Give me a good reason why I shouldn't send you to Hell", the "greedy and addicted to it" defense didn't work.



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Mr. Boffo
Scrapple








Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

Since last post: 364 days
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.12
    Originally posted by jfkfc
      Originally posted by DrDirt
      While not absolving these bastards, don't we all share some of the blame in our quest for wealth?
    I just wanted to know what was meant by this statement, so I know whether or not to feel guilty for screwing so many people out of their money and turn myself in to the proper authorities.

I believe it's the old "Don't hate the player, hate the game" business. i.e. Isn't it our fault as a society that we put such an importance on how much money we make, thereby leading a person to illegal means in order to "keep up with the (CEO) Joneses"? (No.) Or maybe he's claiming, like Corajudo did in a previous thread, that it's the people's fault for not diverifying their investments.



In the real world, WWE believes that no matter what our race, religious creed or ethnic background in America, we all share the common bond of being Americans. American-Arabs are a part of the fabric of America, and they should be embraced by all of us.
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