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22.12.14 2104
The W - Current Events & Politics - Johnnie Walker
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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#1 Posted on
This might be an old topic, but what do people think of this whole "American Taliban" fiasco, stupid names aside? I don't think the guy is innocent or anything, if in fact it's true that he was training with terrorists. However, it concerns me that our government has started to make up laws on the spot, or at least it seems that way. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this for me. But making up ways of trying someone seems a little dangerous. I mean, if I went to Paris and shot an American citizen in the middle of the Champs-Elysees, I'd be charged under French law. Not so for Mr. Walker, apparently. It seems like George & Co. are making the rules up as they go along, which is probably not a good thing in a democratic society that supposedly places value on the rule of the law. The same thing applies to the taliban. How do we decide who gets on a plane to Cuba and who gets to stay in Afghanistan? And who gets to go in front of a military tribunal? Anyway, I've rambled enough, considering my relative ignorance on this issue.



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Since: 22.1.02

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#2 Posted on
I don't know if the laws are really new, they just seem to be laws on the books that have probably never come into play until now. I don't think it's a case of just making stuff up becuse they feel like they have to try him with something. There's a difference between you going to another country and committing a random crime and Walker joining a terrorist group and taking up arms against his own country--and after being captured, participating in an uprising which resulted in loss of life of some of those countrymen. The US isn't conducting a military action in Paris, so you would be left to the gendarmes. Military law is totally different, and I can't say I know a lot about it, but I imagine there is something in there that covers Walker's situation. It sounds to me like he is not exactly having the book thrown at him.


At first I was thinking this thread was about sippin' whiskey, damn...




"Worship the Hardys, but you know--eat a salad once in a while."--Stevie Richards.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#3 Posted on
If you join the armed forces of another country, you automatically lost your U.S. citizenship (I actually think Israel has a way for American's to get around this, and maybe some other countries do to).

The thing that technically saved Johnny from this is the fact that the U.S. never recognized the Taliban as the government of Afganistan, so technically he didn't join the armed forces of a foreign country. Hense, he's still a citizen. Hense, the rules are somewhat different for him than for the other Taliban or Al-Quada.

As for "making stuff up as we go along," I don't know. American law is based on precidents. And there really aren't a lot of precidents for this case. So there isn't really a choice other than to "make stuff up as we go along."

Moe



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#4 Posted on
re: losing your citizenship for taking up arms for another country

It is listed right there in any US passport. He had no reason to not know this. Surely people that leave the country should be held accountable to read their passport?



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210
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Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Absolutly Guru. And the fact that when a soldier of our Army is held in trial, he gets a military tribunal, yet Johnny Fucking Piece of Shit gets to come home and gets the same rights as any other American is just maddening.



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PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#6 Posted on
As much as fighting for the Taliban is a Bad Thing, what do you think we should do, 210? I mean, he IS an American citizen. If we want to say otherwise, well, we have no business trying him at all, do we? Regardless of what rights he's getting, he's still gonna spend the rest of his life in a cell. I don't think the kid has any hope of being acquitted. And, at the considerable risk of appearing stupid, they ARE giving him a jury trial, right?



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Palma

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#7 Posted on
Okay, I could be wrong on the exact charges here, which would change my thinking here. But, it seems to me that they are saying he is charged with being part of a network of people that conspired to committ murder (the WTC and Pentagon attacks). Since those attacks took place on U.S. soil, obviously, the U.S. has part in the jurisdiction. The U.S. then can go into the country by whatever means it wants and kidnap suspects if they want to under the Kerr-Frisbee(sp?) rule. The only thing the U.S. would have to worry about is any civil damages that it caused in its actions. Now, using the standard of the "act of one is the act of all," they can make the case that in legal terms, John Walker is criminally responsible for those deaths. They're evidence that he was part of this group is that he took up arms to help the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and he met with bin Laden (and perhaps there is more he did that we haven't heard yet).
If this is what they are doing, then they have plenty of legal precedent for it. However, if they are just charging him for conspiracy to committ murder against the U.S. soldiers, than I have no idea what they are thinking.





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Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary ... Alberta Canada

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
My take:

Johnnie was an idealistic young man who went way too far when he discovered religion. Happens quite a bit I think.

He travelled halfway around the world and joined the Taliban, who were trying to establish a "pure" Islamic state in Afghanistan. He assisted those humourless zealots in maintaining control of that country. He also stated to a reporter that he supported the Sept. 11 attacks.

Now here's the rub: the Taliban does not equal al-Quada terrorists, unless maybe at the highest levels. If Walker was a foot-soldier who made sure no Afghans were flying kites or listening to music or dancing or drinking alcohol, then he has no business getting tried in an American court. He should be getting tried back in Afganistan by the new government.

If Walker was a terrorist-in-training with actual links to the al-Quada network, he should be punished for it by a fair and open trial in a US court. It's up to the US government to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he actually committed or conspired to commit terrorism.





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210
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Since: 2.1.02
From: St Paul, MN

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00

Whatis it gonna take for you guys? A nuke in LA? Whats it gonna take for you to stop being so dammed nice to people who want to kill you, me and our families?



As much as fighting for the Taliban is a Bad Thing, what do you think we should do, 210? I mean, he IS an American citizen.


OK, what do I think we should do. First, we should ship his treasoning ass down to Guantonamo Bay to stay with the rest of the piece of shit scum that we captured over there.

He IS an American citizen, but the second he took up arms against our Military, he waived all his rights. He is trash. THEY are trash.

And 'turning the other cheek' is only going to get more people killed.



Minnesota is so hot
PalpatineW
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#10 Posted on
Originally posted by 210

Whatis it gonna take for you guys? A nuke in LA? Whats it gonna take for you to stop being so dammed nice to people who want to kill you, me and our families?



As much as fighting for the Taliban is a Bad Thing, what do you think we should do, 210? I mean, he IS an American citizen.


OK, what do I think we should do. First, we should ship his treasoning ass down to Guantonamo Bay to stay with the rest of the piece of shit scum that we captured over there.

He IS an American citizen, but the second he took up arms against our Military, he waived all his rights. He is trash. THEY are trash.

And 'turning the other cheek' is only going to get more people killed.



Minnesota is so hot




No, no. I'm not advocating that we act NICE to this guy. All signs indicate that he deserves to be punished. I have no problem with the conditions at camp X-Ray. You're right, it is a matter of safety. It's not about being nice, it's about the very hard, very cold fact that these people want to kill us, and we need to do everything in our power to see that doesn't happen. All I'm saying is that in this case, Walker deserves a punishment (or, at least, the evidence we're allowed to see indicates that he does). But operating in gray areas of the law is a slippery slope. Due process is important. Jeffrey Dahmer got due process. Ted Bundy got due process. Hell, Benedict Arnold got due process too, didn't he? Until he rafted down the Mississippi, anyway. I don't care when guilty people get punished. I just don't want the government taking liberties with the law, now or ever.



"I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy like that. I might want to have sex in a crazy place, but I'm not gonna rape somebody."
"Iron" Mike Tyson
MoeGates
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Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

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#11 Posted on
"I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy like that. I might want to have sex in a crazy place, but I'm not gonna rape somebody."
"Iron" Mike Tyson


Does he mean like in the back seat of a Volkswagon?

Moe



Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#12 Posted on
Originally posted by MoeGates
"I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy like that. I might want to have sex in a crazy place, but I'm not gonna rape somebody."
"Iron" Mike Tyson


Does he mean like in the back seat of a Volkswagon?

Moe



Farooq is the man so hit your knees and start praying!



I don't know, Moe. I'd hope not to find out. The damn fool is so off his rocker that he spouted those words today, as he was losing his boxing license. I only caught the end of it on ESPN, but it may even have been at the hearing. (I really ought to research these things).



"I'm crazy, but I'm not crazy like that. I might want to have sex in a crazy place, but I'm not gonna rape somebody."
"Iron" Mike Tyson
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