This is an interesting question. Cena has infinitely more talent than Orton does. Cena is probably second to Kurt Angle when it comes to talent (No, not wrestling ability. Acting ability, which is what REALLY matters) in today's WWE. Orton is the next Buff Bagwell, except management is so high on him that we really have no choice in the matter.
My answer? Orton. WWE has saddled Cena with a "Rapmaster" gimmick that will hold him down until he shows more range (he can, but he's been "typecast"), whereas Orton seems to have as much of an opportunity as he wants in WWE, and they will keep pushing him until he actually goes somewhere.
Ok this is tough because they both look great, work great, and their gimmicks are great but in long term appeal you have to give it to Orton for the simple reason that no matter what anybody says , what's cena gonna do after the rap thing has died? Answers on a postcard please
True intelligence is the ability to admit you know nothing (or something like that)
I'd definitely go with Cena. He's integrated his gimmick well enough that it seems just like who he is. His reactions and behavior seem natural. Orton's good at looking cocky, but he doesn't carry it off with the conviction with which Cena plays his part. Plus, Cena's gimmick goes with his still-developing moveset. Cena's just a bad mothertrucker, who looks believable dishing out violence. Orton still seems, sometimes, like he's playing pretend. Could Orton develop and get even better than Cena? Sure. But, based on what I've seen so far, I'd definitely give Cena the nod.
"All I ever asked for in life is an unfair advantage." Microchip, Punisher Annual #2
Originally posted by SKLOKAZOID WWE has saddled Cena with a "Rapmaster" gimmick that will hold him down until he shows more range (he can, but he's been "typecast"), whereas Orton seems to have as much of an opportunity as he wants in WWE, and they will keep pushing him until he actually goes somewhere.
(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 16.2.04 0650)
I couldn't disagree more. Take away the gimmick and he's on Velocity if even that. He made the gimmick rather than having the gimmick make him, there's a difference. Because I'm pretty sure the collective online groan when the gimmick debuted didn't go away by itself.
EDIT: Although, all that said I think you'll see Orton get much better in the ring by this time next year.
Originally posted by Blanket Jackson I couldn't disagree more. Take away the gimmick and he's on Velocity if even that. He made the gimmick rather than having the gimmick make him, there's a difference. Because I'm pretty sure the collective online groan when the gimmick debuted didn't go away by itself.
Isn't that a bit of a contradiction, though?
You say that, without the gimmick, he's a Velocity guy, but you also say that he made the gimmick, which implies that he has the talent to turn a gimmick that made people groan into gold.
If he has the talent to make "Rap Guy" work, why doesn't he have the talent to make something else work? Surely, he can succeed without it.
Cena has shown range in other projects he has done outside of wrestling, as well.
Except for one thing: this is the first time a rapper gimmick has been used in the Big Two without the fans completely shitting on it. Which means one of two things: either the world wasn't READY for P.N. News in 1990 and now they are, or Cena's able to pull it off better than anyone else who's tried it.
Could he have done something else well? Considering he did very well in the indies playing a hybrid of The Narcissist and The New Breed, yes. But here's the thing: you have guys in the WWE that are doing that bit in one form or another already...so at the time he was better off doing something that made him different from anything else. But also, he's able to convey the Steve Austin philosophy of gimmicking with it (that the gimmick/character should be yourself with the volume turned way up), and that's what the most important thing is.
I really don't get smarks sometimes...you'd think Cena was being buried right now based on that previous statement.
Cena, no question. When I went to Survivor Series, I saw tons of people wearing Cena shirts, holding homemade cutouts of him doing the hand-waving thingy, and two front-row marks were dressed up exactly like him.
That remind you of anyone?
Now granted, Cena was turning face at that point, but no way in hell that Orton is getting that kind of reciprocal negative reaction from the crowd.
I didn't like the rap gimmick at first, in fact I bitched to high heaven about it, but Cena has made it work. Yeah, it's a little contrived, but I think it has long-term potential. It's not like the hip hop scene is gonna fade any time soon.
I'd put Orton, long term, in the Bob Holly or Billy Gunn category. Or if you really wanted to get down to it, he's most like Chyna. No one wants to see him, but we're getting him anyway. And he's got a strong jawline and is in a heel stable with HHH. He sort of gets reaction now, but ONLY because he gets mucho TV exposure and the announcers hype him like the second coming of Christ.
(edited by asteroidboy on 16.2.04 1048) -- Asteroid Boy
Wiener of the day: 23.7.02
"My brother saw the Undertaker walking through an airport." - Rex "Was he no-selling?" - Me
Originally posted by Freeway420 They have limited movesets, but their charisma's saving them from having to wrestle well. .
Goldberg got more charisma than Orton, gess how can u even think of them as equals. Orton is riding a free ride on HHH while Cena alone in SD working hard for his spot. Orton got 0 charisma and i mean 0. While Cena is the best mic worker sense the Rock. Enough Said , I`m Out.
I think it's very interesting comparing these two, I remember when these two first debut one right after the other, I think Orton first then Cena and I remember thinking. Wow WWE has some cookie cutter generic wrestling factory that makes juiced up freaks Batista and chiseled dudes like Orton and Cena with similar movesets. But over time I think one has at least tried to go out and distinguish himself while the other one just went par for the course... In my eyes for now Orton and Cena are actually comparable to the stories of two divas.
On my last Confidential thread I titled that Randy Orton reminds me alot of a Torrie Wilson and he does in many ways. He's got the look, he's got the seal of approval from the WWE. He seems more then happy and contempt to just for par for the course and just do just enough that is expected from him
John Cena kind of reminds me more of a Trish Stratus, Trish could have rested on her looks but wanted to distinguish herself as a bumping beauty. Cena did it less on athletics, but distinguished himself with his personality which is a dire lack in most young wrestlers... In the young wrestlers I see either a really forced gimmick (see: Bashams) or no personality at all (See: Cade, Jindrak). Cena started with the "Ruthless aggression" kid but Cena seemed to be able to cut out a niche for himself and separate himself from the pack.
I think he's comfortable with himself and his gimmick that he'd be able to tweak it enough when necessary. He already has, remember when he started he did that silly "Let me rewind that for you" and used his mouth as a rewinding tape recorder, and he switched things up with a bit more thuggish. Now as a face, Cena needs to be careful not to be too much of a suck up to the crowd, but focus more on speaking venom words towards his opponents... He also needs to be careful not to totally wrap himself as funny guy gimmick. Rock is as gimmick speaker as they come, but he knows when to switch that off and get really serious and REAL when it needs be. Cena needs to know when to turn it off and on when the time is right. From what I've seen already looks like he is comfortable enough to be willing to switch things up.
In ring, I'd call it a Push. The both been carried by great wrestlers, and they both have looked as green as grass in there. Orton might be a bit better technically, but Cena might have the advantage in brawling and putting a match that can get the crowd into it. But really too close to give anyone a big advantage
The big difference for me is out of the ring. Cena just seems to have so much depth to him as a person. I've seen him do mainstream interview, I seen him do half an inning at a baseball game and he comes off really good. They talk about him having such a big arm but his opening pitch wasn't that impressive. He defends himself saying "That's a knuckle ball. Wakefield style" LoL. I've seen him do mainstream interviews and he knows how to roll in and out of his gimmick. I see him on Confidential and he's not always gold but more times then not he comes off very cool... Orton on the other hand, I've never seen him do any mainstream stuff yet. Which will be interesting how he comes off, because if comes off like he does on Confidential his personality will be pretty paper thin.
Cena has and is the type of guy who can fill up shopping malls, I think he connects with a wide range of fans while Orton has his fan base but I don't think it's going to be as spread out as Cena's... I think Cena is the type of guy fans want to live threw and be like. One sign of seeing this is how many fans in the stands are impersonating him and pretending to be like him which has been a sign of stars breaking out like they did with Austin and Rock in the past.
It is an interesting discussion and I think their careers are going to be compared because of the similarities of their start. Reading you guys, you guys really said it best as Cena seems to be making his on inroads in making himself a star. While Orton seems to have stardom bestowed on him by the company... Who's going to sucessed? Who really knows in this company. But if we are looking at all things even I'd put my money on Cena easily.
edit: oops edit in Jindrak name instead of O'Haire
(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 16.2.04 1307)
(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 16.2.04 2048) smark/net attack wienerville advisory is lowered to YELLOW alert - Elevated (Due to Lesner still being champ, Benoit winning the Rumble, but HHH as champ is still a threat) 1/27
Get your WWE CD copy autographed by Stone Cold Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Trish Stratus and Lilian Garcia after Raw... Oh MY! Christmas has come late. Can't get better then that.
I would take Cena....he has "it", I mean I've heard stories where he will be out eating and people will try to rap battle him and he completely destroys them....I remember seeing him come down to the ring at RR '03 freestyling for 2 minutes and saying to myself "that guy has it" no question...I think that is the most important thing they need to get across to these young guys who are starting out, find something that is inside you, a different part of you, and blow it up and make it your own (hey it's working for Eddie, Kurt, V1, Y2J)
I think Benjamin/Haas could both be great....when you have them split up have them have a long feud for the US title (like those Benoit/Y2J matches I think so fondly of...build up Benjamin as the asshole heel (he has a great jackass smirk) and Haas as the emotional face (have him sell how his brother died and how him and Shelton got together), easily with Charlie's story you could turn him into the guy that everyone roots for
I still think that if given a shot AJ Styles or Low Ki could be a ME great for the WWE but will never get the shot be it b/c of size, personality or their twang
"I'm not that big, but I'm fast, I'm pretty sure I can outrun the whole Dallas Cowboys team." --high school senior RB (and possible future Boomer Sooner) Adrian Peterson on his thoughts on his chances in the NFL
Am I the only person who hope this kid signs into the NFL and Roy Williams and Parcells get to let that comment stew for the next 7 months?
Interesting debate...yet I'm going with the blue chipper in Randy Ortan. The father was a wrestler and his grandfather was wrestler. I'm going with the leagacy in this one. Ortan will outshine Cena. I could be wrong but i've heard the WWE wants to try to feed us Ortan as the "next Rock" and Cena as the "next Stone Cold". In time we will see. As for now I'm going with Ortan.
Originally posted by RingmistressOh come on, the real MVP of Raw last night - ROSCOE P. COALTRAIN!
Do the guys named "Wordlife" and "Cena" really need to vote? I think we know who they're picking.
SKLOKAZOID, what do you have against rap music? Why is the "rap guy" something that absolutely has to be changed? I think you're taking altogether too much for granted. Some element of hip-hop culture will likely always be a part of Cena's personae because he's into that in real life. It's a part of him. Taking the "street" out of Cena would be no easier than taking the "redneck" out of Stone Cold. This is his first time getting over big and it'll be hard to separate him from that. But I don't see why you assume he's been "saddled" with the gimmick or had it forced on him. It's not exactly the red rooster. I believe he said on Byte This that he was freestylin' on a bus on some overseas trip and showed some rhymin' skill and that's how he got the gimmick.
As for the Cena/Orton question, clearly Cena. You can't learn charisma, and Orton will never have it. Orton also sucks, and at this point Cena's much better. My main beef with Cena is those spindly little legs. He's carrying around way too much mass in the upper body to have such scrawny legs, and he's going to get more ankle and knee problems if he doesn't beef up.
I'd tell you to kiss my ass, but I don't want to get it infected.
I dislike rap. I try to like it sometimes, and I know rap is good, but me no like the rap. Country music too.
But Cena has created a somewhat unique character. Or maybe he's just good at it. Sometimes I think you catch lightning in a bottle, more then anything. But I give Cena credit because he looks very comfortable AND he also looks like he is having fun, especially in big matches and now that he's a face. He's funny, and he looks like a good improvisor. I am sure he came up with alot of his stuff himself, but don't hold me to that.
Orton is being mega-pushed. RNN reports were great and I thought he was gonna be better then he is. But maybe it's just the Foley thing that is not TOTALLY clicking for me. I don't like Orton and he's not "over" with me. But when those Caderack dudes stole the money/suitcase with the Goldberg bounty, I thought Orton was gold. Maybe he's more comedy then serious, better suited to funny segments and promos. Flair-like stuff, more over the top stuff. Flair can be serious, maybe "Randy" can't. I know his dad was but thats another story.
Orton or Cena? The winner will be whoever is not on RAW at the time of his big break and can avoid being fed to HHH's ego.
Thankfully, at this point it looks like Orton. Let's see how ald Randy does in a year and a half when he is in a feud with HHH and either fucks up a move/hurts HHH/makes HHH look bad or loses badly to HHH and with it, all his heat. Can he get back to the ME on his own? I doubt it.
Cena has a great gimmick that can be tweaked over time. I see him, if he stays healthy and continues to be pushed, as the next Stone Cold. All he needs is a catch phrase that the crowd can chant along with and he will be golden.
Originally posted by Hogan's My DadSKLOKAZOID, what do you have against rap music? Why is the "rap guy" something that absolutely has to be changed? I think you're taking altogether too much for granted. Some element of hip-hop culture will likely always be a part of Cena's personae because he's into that in real life. It's a part of him. Taking the "street" out of Cena would be no easier than taking the "redneck" out of Stone Cold. This is his first time getting over big and it'll be hard to separate him from that. But I don't see why you assume he's been "saddled" with the gimmick or had it forced on him. It's not exactly the red rooster. I believe he said on Byte This that he was freestylin' on a bus on some overseas trip and showed some rhymin' skill and that's how he got the gimmick.
I think you're missing my point. It has nothing to do with rap music. At all. I don't see why you see this as an attack on rap specifically. It has to do with the "gimmick" aspect of it. It's a one-trick pony. A very talented and entertaining one-trick pony, but it's one nonetheless.
Cena goes out, does his little song and dance, wrestles his match, and does it again the next week. It's been over a year now, and I fully anticipate that he will be like this in two years. I don't think that's a good idea.
If Cena came out with a guitar, grew his hair out like Alice Cooper and sang brilliant songs about his opponents, I would think the same thing.
It's a gimmick. Period. Cena has done a great job making it work. The "W" T-shirt is one of the better shirts they have produced in recent years. But, it's still a gimmick.
For a guy with the potential Cena has (I do mean "next Stone Cold" here), something will need to happen to intiate that kind of run and Cena will then have to capitalize on it. He's not there yet, it's still very early into his career, but it will happen someday. I think people are blinded by the fact that it's working so well now, that they actually think he can do this forever.
I don't see this as Cena being "himself" at all. He's not there yet as a performer to the point where he can convey emotional depth and have people take him seriously. Austin may have had a "redneck" gimmick, but there was still the emotional depth of a man who worked hard for 8 years and got fired over the phone (an aspect they did play up on TV as part of his character), which made people buy Austin's angry Texan persona.
Cena is doing this voluntarily, I never said he had it forced upon him. This is definitely a step up from when Austin was given the "Ringmaster" gimmick, but I still see this as a Halloween costume taken too far. I don't see him as a real person, I see him as a guy who wanted to succeed in the music industry, and became a wrestler to help sell records. And that's pushing it for depth. If the "Ringmaster" gimmick got really over in 1996 WWE and Austin was happy with it, would he have been as successful?
Like with every big star, Cena will need a moment of opportunity to step up. A WrestleMania title match, a win over a guy like The Rock, a feud with an established vereran like Hulk Hogan. Something. Hopefully, he can follow Mark Wahlberg's pattern of success and stop being Marky Mark and start being Dirk Diggler and that guy he played in Perfect Storm.
It's working now, but because it's working so well now, it's all people think he's good at. This will damage him in the long run. Especially because Cena enjoys doing it so much, he won't be thinking ahead.
All I'm saying right now is that, yes it's big and successful, but it's also blinding. I think that, in a few years, when Cena is still doing the same thing and has lost his big feud to HHH, we will look back at a key time when Cena could have started doing something different. That's all I'm saying.
Since WWE will be working so hard with getting people to take Orton seriously, he may be shoved down our throats to the point where he ends up like HHH or Brock Lesnar. We'll accept it, we may not like it, but he'll be there. I don't know if they will try that hard with Cena. That's why he's on the SMACKDOWN!, which is a RAW farm league these days, and not on RAW.
Originally posted by Y2J 420Cena has solid in-ring work? He's still so green...
And Orton isn't? In fact, I'd argue that Orton has screwed up more matches with better workers than Cena has. I think Cena would be able to carry some of the other workers to good matches even. Orton is dull (see match with Shawn on Raw), tends to blow important spots (the Tag match against Jericho and Christian where he blew the finish), and is not a viable singles competitor in the general public's eye. I mean, when was the last time he went over clean in a singles match? Maybe Foley can jumpstart his rise. But as of now, let me take the Doctor of Thuganomics over the arrogant IC champ.
Pretty OK matches, I thought, for Indys and wrestling school matches. I can't speak for all the matches and guys (Had never heard of any of them), but this Nick Sully looks like a good worker. I'll probably watch a little more later tonight.