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The W - Pro Wrestling - John Bradshaw Layfield vs....
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madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2303 days
Last activity: 2295 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74

No, I'm not trying to predict the next challenger for our NEW WWE Heavyweight Champion, I'm thinking back, to when Rene Dupree, RVD and Booker T arrived on Smackdown, the same day as the first appearance of John Bradshaw Layfield. This was also the first appearance of Charlie Haas, solo wrestler, and Kurt Angle, GM. Twelve weeks later, and JBL is the new champion.

But let's think this through for a second: Haas, Dupree, Booker, RVD, and JBL were all at comparable positions on the card at that moment, with elevation well within the realm of possibilities. In my opinion, any one of them could have been pushed as a Main Event Challenger in Eight weeks, and made champion in 12. But was JBL *really* the best of the bunch? In this topic we rank the other options, or just compare them to JBL, and see what the consensus is.

Options:
1. Charlie Haas
2. Rene Dupree
3. Booker T
4. Rob Van Dam
5. *John Cena* (not a new incarnation)
6. *Chavo Guerrero* (not a new incarnation)
7. *Other* (Mordecai, Kenzo Suzuki, Luther Reigns, or any guy from RAW, like Scott Steiner or Test, not present at the Draft Lottery.)

Discuss...




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chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2694 days
Last activity: 2694 days
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
It was never about JBL being the "best" of the bunch. Is it really that hard to see what the WWE has just done and what they're doing?

Put it this way. JBL was a new character, as opposed to all the others you mentioned. The others are all pretty much the same guys they always were - regardless of being face or heel. And they could be pushed to the same spot as JBL tomorrow, if needed.

With JBL, they needed to put in some effort to give his character a new direction after years of him just being a beer-drinking USA supporter. Hence the shove-JBL-down-the-viewers'-throats push that he's gotten. By pushing JBL, they now have a new main eventer - like him or not. RVD or Booker T could step up this week to be a main event challenger and not much effort would be needed.

The WWE didn't take the easy way out. They created a new "star." Whether you like JLB or not, they did themselves a favor by expanding Smackdown's options. They already know they can put RVD and a lot of the others in the main event slot. Is all of this not obvious already?

If you don't like what you see on WWE TV, try starting your own company. Otherwise, quit complaining because:

1) JBL is not going away any time soon.

2) This is just the continuation of the JBL/Eddie feud, where Eddie now has to play Brock Lesnar's character in the storyline where Brock was being kept away by GM Paul Heyman from regaining Kurt Angle's WWE Title.

3) JBL isn't that bad, he's a lot better than he used to be, and he is getting legit heel heat right now.

4) Smackdown is no worse today than it was months ago. If anything, JBL vs Eddie is a lot better than Hardcore Holly vs Brock Lesnar was 6 months ago. The show still sucks as much as it did back then.

(edited by chill on 28.6.04 1328)
Pimpstress
Tocino








Since: 17.5.04
From: Philadelphia, PA

Since last post: 2613 days
Last activity: 2522 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
It pains me to see RVD being reduced to essentially, THE upper mid-tier jobber. RVD could have been reinvented as a successful villain along the lines of Chris Jericho when he was a cocky bastard that you could love to hate. You know, GOOD heat. Plus, it seems like he hasn't dusted off some of his Madd Ring Skillz in so long that he kind of fades into the woodwork.

I have to disagree with you, Chill, on JBL getting legit heat. Most of it is fallout from his shindig in Germany. His promos are a bit better, but the crowds pretty much seem dead when JBL hits the ring. Haas has shown potential in that he's a great wrestler and with a little help, he could be given enough personality to develop into a Main Eventer. I think it would have taken more than 12 weeks.

It seems like they're trying to package Luther Reins as the next Brock Lesnar or Goldberg type. He just doesn't have "it" and looks a lot more forceful in the suit than without it.

As much as I'd like to see Booker T get a title spot, the way they pushed him as a villain really had no juice for him to be more than a mid-card champ.

Cena would have been great. I like him better as a villain and when he's vicious. I could even deal with Cena and Dupree duking it out for the Championship title. Eddy's starting to wear thin, but I still preferred him to JBL. Guerrero was a terrific wrestler and if paired with the right person to lead off of in promos, he's very entertaining. However, if his challenger is weak on the stick or in move sets, he's only as good as his opponent and can't carry a feud on his own. That's why RVD or Cena would have made a better contender.
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2303 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74
But chill, by that logic, you forfeit your right to comment on the benefit to the company in giving ANYONE the Big Belt. Kenzo Suzuki is a new face; is he a better choice as World Champion than Eddie Guerrero?

And why couldn't JBL have feuded with an up-and-comer in order to establish his new character? Why did he need to go RIGHT to the top, where fans would be obviously resistant to accept him?

And I'm sorry, but Booker T arrived on Smackdown as every bit the new character as JBL. Booker bashed the Smackdown roster and fans, and said that he was the Biggest Thing on the show. Logic says that HE gets the main event duke over JBL, who promised that he'd make an "impact." For a wrestler whose most prestigious title held was the Hardcore Title, the US Title is a step up, a definite "impact." Booker feuded with the Special Attraction, then couldn't go over, after having lost to the Heavyweight Champion and barely beating the #3 face. He is now feuding with the #2 face on Smackdown. His push was abandoned in favor of the relative MegaPush of JBL, and *his* new character was irreparably harmed as a result. So no, he cam't just "step up next week."
thecubsfan
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 8 hours
#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Madiq:

Instead of just throwing out a list, how about explaining what order you'd put the list. Trying to get an unbiased poll is pretty futile, but a discussion about the topic maybe isn't.

Chill:


    It was never about JBL being the "best" of the bunch.


Oddly though, this thread was trying to discuss that before you hijacked it.

    Originally posted by now
    Otherwise, quit complaining because:


    Originally posted by before
    I'm not taking away anyone's right to criticize.


Dude. Please read your username to yourself a few times.

It's not your job to make everyone love/like/accept JBL and SmackDown!, and it's not their job to love/like/accept JBL and SmackDown! We don't have to agree.

I think you've well established how you feel about this issue by now, and your continued one noted-ness about it is causing you to come off as just as much as annoyance as those who singlemindedly harp on SmackDown!

(edited by thecubsfan on 28.6.04 1437)


thecubsfan.com - CMLLBlog
jjfc
Cotechino








Since: 13.5.04
From: DC

Since last post: 3662 days
Last activity: 3431 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.11
I think WWE should have JBL feud with Cena. Look at the shopzone numbers and crowd reactions. Cena is the most over full time person in the company (either brand.) If we've learned anything from The Rock, it's that wrestling ability is secondary to charisma. Even in his current watered down state, he's got legit charisma with crossover appeal.
The Lurk
Cotechino








Since: 7.6.04

Since last post: 3744 days
Last activity: 3744 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.64
I think JBL's push is as much a matter of circumstance as anything. All of the top Smackdown! heels were, in a matter of months, (a) injured or (b) quit.

So, that leaves a gaping void. I think JBL was chosen to fill that void because it would be much EASIER to get him over due to circumstance and NOT because he is "better" than any of the other guys.

Looking at the list of 6-8 guys listed in the first post, I would have chosen Bradshaw if I was part of the creative team as well.

Here's why....

None of these guys are going to be great heel's without a heel-generating gimmick. The only guys with with insta-gimmicks that could work for a heel from this list are Cena (hateful cocky rapper) and JBL (hateful white racist).

RVD and Booker T have a really hard time playing the heel role well. Haas is too vanilla and has no "insta-gimmick" personality traits or looks. Chavo is a cruiser and was just involved in a feud where he was OWNED by Eddie. A new feud with Eddie featuring Chavo as a believable opponenet would have been ridiculous.

So, you have Cena or JBL. Yeah, maybe you like Cena better. Hell, I like Cena better.

BUT....which guy's insta-gimmick works better as a cheap heel versus a hispanic champion??



The beginning....
asteroidboy
Andouille








Since: 22.1.02
From: Texas

Since last post: 1436 days
Last activity: 344 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.95
1. Charlie Haas

He could be the Shelton Benjamin of Smackdown. Fans are starting to adjust more to the amateur style and Haas can deliver the goods. Not read for an ME push, though. Not enough time on the mic; we really don't know much about him. I like him better than JBL, but I don't know if he deserves to be higher in the pecking order.

2. Rene Dupree

Until he gets repackaged, he'll just be an ethnic heel. They (and DEAN) have tried to get him over, but there's really no difference in Dupree and any garden variety heel that waves a flag w/out stars and stripes.

3. Booker T

Book probably could have gone over Bradshaw in the pecking order, but he's been so damaged that WWE fans see him as a loser, heel or a face. A high profile win could change that, but no one's been willing to put Book over.

4. Rob Van Dam

STILL one of the most over guys on the roster, after years of burial. RVD remains someone who can believably compete in any main event. Easily better than JBL.

5. *John Cena* (not a new incarnation)

Still not ready for prime time. When he's not wrestling against the Undertaker, Cena's weaknesses are exposed and WWE fans don't like crap wrestling in their main events. Bradshaw is no Ricky Steamboat, but his offense is still a wee better than Cena's. A wee.

6. *Chavo Guerrero* (not a new incarnation)

Would be an interesting ME choice, but Chavo is still a cruiser.



-- Asteroid Boy


Wiener of the day: 23.7.02, 3.12.03

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"Was he no-selling?" - Me


Phantom
Frankfurter








Since: 17.3.02

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.15
I honestly would have gone with Booker over JBL in this situation. Booker came in with the motivation (dumped to the “B-string” show) and the main-event experience. He could have easily been a credible threat to Eddie. On the flipside of that, you’ve got JBL. He could have turned his Pat Robertson persona loose on John Cena’s US Title and had time to work the kinks out of his character under a smaller microscope.

I don’t know. I recall the IWC being up in arms when Big Show beat Brock for the title, but ultimately we ended up with a rehabilitated Big Show character who has honestly been part of some of the most dramatic moments on Smackdown for the past year. If they can somehow pull off the same with Bradshaw, great.
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2303 days
Last activity: 2295 days
AIM:  
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74
What helped Big Show, though, was working with the likes of Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle, and having Paul Heyman as his mouthpiece.

John Bradshaw Layfield introduced when the Mr. McMahon character was in full force, would function totally differently, and would be closer to the situation with Big Show. But truthfully, Big Show is a former multiple-time World Champion, and he carried more latent credibility.
chill
Landjager








Since: 18.5.02

Since last post: 2694 days
Last activity: 2694 days
#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.24
    Originally posted by thecubsfan
    It's not your job to make everyone love/like/accept JBL and SmackDown!, and it's not their job to love/like/accept JBL and SmackDown! We don't have to agree.(edited by thecubsfan on 28.6.04 1437)


I'm not looking for people to agree. Nor was I ever trying to be pro-WWE. It was more anti-bitch-and-moan for no reason. I feel I made my point, even if you've confused a bit of it with selective excerpts to make it seem like I'm contradicting myself. Congratulations for that, I found it amusing. All I will say is that I see your point and agree with it whole-heartedly. I don't enjoy getting up on a soapbox, but none of the regulars seem to care one way or the other when the only thing being posted is more complaining.

That said, I want to move along to the discussion here.

I agree with all the head-shaking about how RVD and Booker T are booked. We all could probably fantasy book the WWE more to our own liking and be happier than how they are choosing to book their talent.

JBL will be a better asset to the WWE in time. And I highly doubt most of the viewing public or people in the stands know about JBL's heat-seeking tactics in Germany. It's more likely they boo him because he seeks cheap heat, saying he's better than the crowd and that all Mexicans should be emigrated back to Mexico, etc.

Smackdown has a pretty good roster. There really is no main event roster, which is what the JBL push is all about. I don't like how fast he was pushed anymore than the rest of you, but it's happening this way, so let's see how things turn out three or four months from now. This could really bomb, or it could be better than anyone expected. Sorta like how Eugene has surpassed everyone's expectations, when they were jumping up and down, vowing to boycott WWE over stooping so low as to use a "special" wrestler.

Smackdown is a mess. Only time can heal it.
fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 3269 days
Last activity: 3269 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
JBL will lose the title back to Guerrero at SummerSlam, I'd bet. Toronto is a big Guerrero city.

EDIT: It might also take some of the sting off of Triple H potentially taking his title back from Chris Benoit in Canada.

(edited by fuelinjected on 28.6.04 1700)


WWE now serving only -> "DIET CHAVO - All the taste - Half the fat!"
madiq
Boerewors








Since: 27.7.03
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2303 days
Last activity: 2295 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.74
1. Booker T - The best overall choice. Not counting Undertaker, Booker is the only former World Champion on the active roster. He was introduced to Smackdown viewers as the aloof and bitter wrestler with a superiority complex. He claimed that Smackdown was the minor leagues, and because of that statement, had no friends or allies. However, in this "Terrell Owens" incarnation, he could receive favorable treatment from a GM like Angle, desperate to get the title off of a "disgrace" like Eddie Guerrero, and onto a "Marquee Name" like Booker T. The buildup for the feud is quite easy, and they were able to set up a main event title match between the two in one night. Over eight weeks of trash-talking and oneupsmanship, fans would be eager to see Booker and Guerrero lock horns.
Advantage: Booker

2. Scott Steiner* (*Not on the show.) - This isn't a new topic for me, but I'll recap. Scott Steiner shows up, bloodies Eddie Guerrero, spits out some obscenities, and he's an instant main eventer. No questions asked. (Except maybe, "How did he get on Smackdown?") But if he reverts to the out-of-control "roid rage" incarnation of his persona, attacking and badmouthing fans and going on about how the Powers that Be in the WWE tried to water him down, but now he is the "Real" Big Poppa Pump, former WCW Champion and all-around psycho. He could steal Eddie's belt and wear it. He could toss around cruisers, but occasionally get DQed for excessive violence. And if not for the injury/contract situation, he could go over Eddie.

Wrestling-wise, Steiner is probably inferior to Layfield, but in terms of credibility and promo ability, JBL is still Getting There. And guess what: Although the IWC has turned on Big Poppa Pump, casual fans are willing to give him another chance, if he is pushed as the Big Poppa Pump of old.
Advantage: Steiner

3. Rob Van Dam - As a face, this popular guy could merely win a #1 Contender's Match, and the prospect of fans seeing RVD in a PPV main event would draw. A face-face matchup with Eddie could be built upon mutual respect, or tension could be teased, or a third guy could be thrown into the mix.

As a heel, the return of Paul Heyman would be an important consideration. Just as he was instrumental in raising the main event profile of the Dudley Boyz, he could have similarly antagonized RVD, but set the foundation for an RVD-Guerrero vs. Dudleyz match. An RVD turn, with Heyman doing the explaining, would be accepted by fans. A cocky heel RVD, tossing around the "Mr. Thursday Night" nickname while showboating his way to easy victories (Funaki, Gunn, Holly, I'm looking at YOU!) would be booed, and if not, they could just overdub the chants until fans complied.

The major strike against RVD is his mic work, but with a great mouthpiece like Heyman, the storyline could be well-told. Of course, if RVD opted to remain a face, Angle in the GM position would need to occupy the role of primary antagonist. Maybe Angle feels that NEITHER man deserves the WWE Title, or that a third guy belongs in the mix. Maybe he demands that RVD kiss his proverbial ring. Bottom line is that RVD would need a little work, but not nearly as much as JBL.
Advantage: RVD

4. Charlie Haas - Perhaps this pick is slightly controversial, but the proper way to envision this feud is as an extension of the Angle-Guerrero Wrestlemania feud. With Angle no longer wrestling, he is looking for someone to mold, and Charlie, his former protege, fits the bill. If Angle continued to cut anti-Guerrero promos, and positioned Haas as his "Chosen One," fans would allow Angle to draw Haas' heat. Plus, Charlie would play "in over his head," because he is a tool of Angle, but when he finally did show his mean streak, (the Judgment Day chairshot still could've happened) fans would begin to take Young Charleston seriously.

Wrestling-wise, Haas is JBL's superior, although due to the size advantage, JBL can physically dominate. Still, the storyline extension, with Angle putting Guerrero through Hell while favoring "All-American" Haas, blows away letting Layfield cut 15-minute anti-Mexican promos. Angle could even let Haas wear the Gold Medals for good luck.
Advantage: Haas (slightly)

5. Chavo Guerrero: Chavo may have lost to Eddie before, but the free TV match between the two proves that they can put on quality matches with each other, especially when the issue is more straight-forward. In my opinion, although Chavo was lower on the card than Cena, he was probably the #1 active heel. Therefore, all the WWE needed was a reason to have the two men fight again. Maybe Chavo could accuse Eddie of being a sell-out. Maybe Chavo could still be obsessed with the fact that his uncle keeps oneupping him, and enlists the aid of Angle to set up a contest between the two. Maybe they go 2 out of 3 Falls, because Chavo doesn't believe that Eddie can beat him twice. I don't doubt Chavo's (pre-Jacqueline job, of course) ability to garner main event heat, and put on main event matches, but the onus would be on the booking to make the feud seem fresh.
Advantage: PUSH

6. Mordecai - It's all about the mystery. Mordecai cuts promos in his vignettes about sinners and crusades, and promises to punish Eddie Guerrero at Judgment Day. In the meanwhile, Eddie goes about his business, winning matches, but getting no insight into his wrestling ability. A few weeks before the PPV, Mordecai promises a "sacrifice," and pal Rey Mysterio gets attacked.

Whoever said that WWE *NEEDED* to create a new star should have no problem with this. Eddie is probably talented enough to carry a green rookie to an entertaining match, especially with the mystery factor, as well as the bladejob trump card. While fans wouldn't expect Mordecai to win, the mere fact of him immediately being thrust into a World Title match would make them care. Whether they'd shit on it is up to the parties involved.
Advantage: PUSH

7. John Cena - John Cena is pretty darn popular, but a month after his US Title win, he lacked the momentum necessary to make the jump. A title-less Cena could be plugged into a #1 Contender's Match in a heartbeat, and the ensuing match would draw. Trouble is, this type of #1 Face vs. #2 Face match usually works a lot better after much more momentum, and only works as a one-shot, unless someone is turning. (see Lesnar-Angle) For that reason, Cena being plugged into the role is problematic.
Advantage: JBL

8. Kenzo Suzuki - You see, the Japanese are evil. (Just ask Kaientai.) Give him a mouthpiece, (Paul Heyman would be great!), an agenda (proving Japanese superiority), and a stable (Akio, Sakoda), and he could be accepted as a threat. Granted, I doubt that even Eddie could carry him, but he could be built as a contender to Eddie's title.
Advantage: JBL

9. Luther Reigns - Kurt Angle makes it his business to get Eddie to lose the title. Reigns arrives, and proceeds to decimate Eddie whenever he can. Luther smash. Eddie hurt. Underdog, underdog, underdog. But no one really expects Luther to *beat* Eddie, so I guess he loses out.
Advantage: JBL

10. Rene Dupree - He's young and looks pretty tough, but his character is still dependent on cheap heat. Also, he came over from RAW as damaged goods, jobbing at every turn, so fans probably wouldn't believe that he could show up and contend for Eddie's title, let alone win it..
Advantage: JBL

wordlife
Head cheese








Since: 4.4.03

Since last post: 3368 days
Last activity: 2652 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by madiq
    3. Rob Van Dam - As a face, this popular guy could merely win a #1 Contender's Match, and the prospect of fans seeing RVD in a PPV main event would draw. A face-face matchup with Eddie could be built upon mutual respect, or tension could be teased, or a third guy could be thrown into the mix.

    As a heel, the return of Paul Heyman would be an important consideration. Just as he was instrumental in raising the main event profile of the Dudley Boyz, he could have similarly antagonized RVD, but set the foundation for an RVD-Guerrero vs. Dudleyz match. An RVD turn, with Heyman doing the explaining, would be accepted by fans. A cocky heel RVD, tossing around the "Mr. Thursday Night" nickname while showboating his way to easy victories (Funaki, Gunn, Holly, I'm looking at YOU!) would be booed, and if not, they could just overdub the chants until fans complied.

    The major strike against RVD is his mic work, but with a great mouthpiece like Heyman, the storyline could be well-told. Of course, if RVD opted to remain a face, Angle in the GM position would need to occupy the role of primary antagonist. Maybe Angle feels that NEITHER man deserves the WWE Title, or that a third guy belongs in the mix. Maybe he demands that RVD kiss his proverbial ring. Bottom line is that RVD would need a little work, but not nearly as much as JBL.
    Advantage: RVD






This is exactly what they need to do with RVD. This IS the reason that RVD was so over in ECW. He plays that cocky jackass that you love to hate so well, its sick. With Heyman at his side and the Dudleyz backing him up, it makes him look that much more unstoppable.

    Originally posted by madiq
    4. Charlie Haas - Perhaps this pick is slightly controversial, but the proper way to envision this feud is as an extension of the Angle-Guerrero Wrestlemania feud. With Angle no longer wrestling, he is looking for someone to mold, and Charlie, his former protege, fits the bill. If Angle continued to cut anti-Guerrero promos, and positioned Haas as his "Chosen One," fans would allow Angle to draw Haas' heat. Plus, Charlie would play "in over his head," because he is a tool of Angle, but when he finally did show his mean streak, (the Judgment Day chairshot still could've happened) fans would begin to take Young Charleston seriously.

    Wrestling-wise, Haas is JBL's superior, although due to the size advantage, JBL can physically dominate. Still, the storyline extension, with Angle putting Guerrero through Hell while favoring "All-American" Haas, blows away letting Layfield cut 15-minute anti-Mexican promos. Angle could even let Haas wear the Gold Medals for good luck.
    Advantage: Haas (slightly)



This is also a great idea. I have always thought that "All-American" Charlie Haas would be perfect. He does need a mouthpiece to get started but I think once he is up and running he will do a great job. He has a ton of talent and you could play him as a heel (Angle's protege). I think you could use him as a face, if he would be willing to talk about his brother's death and how he dedicated his career to him. It would make people get behind him once he got his big shot at the gold. You could have Charlie's whole family there once he won come out, I think it would be a great tribute to Russ.

As for Cena, I loved what they were doing with him in the beginning (the badass MoFo schtick). Cena's let me rewind that before Backlash last year was arguably one of the best promos of the year. They do need to have him turn more "hardcore" so to speak, but if he is selling everything like he is, I wouldn't screw with it either.



Ralph Wiley: Sorry, we had a chat room accident. It was like Freaky Friday. In fact, like Lindsay Lohan, I just inexplicably grew a pair of 36D's. --quote actually during an ESPN chat when Bill Simmons accidentally was put under Ralph Wiley's name
Mayhem
Scrapple








Since: 25.4.03
From: Nashville, TN

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
or JBL vs. TV Guide ...

http://www.pwinsider.com/ ViewArticle.asp?id=3361& p=1

"In the July 4 - 10 issue of TV Guide which comes to newsstands this Thursday, but most subscribers are getting today, in the Cheers and Jeers column they have a jeer for The New WWE Champion John Bradshaw Layfield! It reads as follows: Jeers to pro wrestler John "Bradshaw" Layfield, who got fired from his day job as a CNBC analyst for giving a Nazi salute during a match in Germany. Why did the cable net hire this dummkopf?"


I guess there's really no such thing as "bad publicity".

(edited by Mayhem on 29.6.04 1130)



Go banana.
Phantom
Frankfurter








Since: 17.3.02

Since last post: 2382 days
Last activity: 2358 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.15
Can you summarize? All of PWI’s assorted pop-ups and scripts are playing hell with my work’s web browser.
Thread rated: 4.96
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