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The W - Pro Wrestling - Jim Cornette - THE "WRITE" STUFF
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RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
I can't argue with anyone who says that this is a must read, because it's great. But I *can* complain that no one has mentioned this here (that means YOU)

Click Here (jimcornette.com)

At first read, it echos the sentiments of anyone who thinks the current state of wrestling and it's presentation sucks. But when I did the math of the great "bookers" - (USA only), not writers, from the past 15 or so years

Heyman (ECW) / Cornette (SMW) / Sapolsky (ROH)

Profit = less than zero

The "writers" for WWE drew 52 million for WM 25

Cornette brings up solid points about the "green" in the talent these days...and also about the lack of foresight in the development system in the WWE. I've always had a beef that 20 million gets spent on bad movies, while that money could be spent running 6 shows a week in small arenas teaching guys the "way to work". But even that is subjective

WWE wants "stars" and a "look", which is fine...putting them on TV and pretty much running them out of the industry when they fail to make the grade is a rotten way to do business. Then again, people like Cornette and Heyman have put people through a meat grinder doing it the old way, so it's tough to say that WWE's way is worse.

We'll know how this plays out in about 10 years. I think it’s foolish and grandstanding / pandering at this point to make all these claims when financial reports for the only game in town read different

FLEA




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Excalibur05
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Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.39
Everything Cornette says in that post is mitigated by the fact that he works happily for TNA, which makes even more baffling booking decisions per hour of television than WWE, despite the fact that most of their backstage guys fit Cornette's bill.



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John Orquiola
Scrapple








Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 114 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    Everything Cornette says in that post is mitigated by the fact that he works happily for TNA, which makes even more baffling booking decisions per hour of television than WWE, despite the fact that most of their backstage guys fit Cornette's bill.


What he said.

Not to say that Cornette doesn't have salient points about WWE's by now well-documented disdain for "pro wrestling", Vince McMahon's notorious enjoyment of embarassing his staff, and said staff's fear of speaking up. Stone Cold was making the exact same complaints seven years ago when Creative wanted him to lay down to Brock Lesnar to set up Lesnar going after The Rock (as he again mentioned in his Hall of Fame speech.)
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
The problem with Corny, Austin, Bischoff et al's rants on this subject is that they're just as egocentric and riddled with personal agendas as anything Vince does/says. And as pointed out above, everybody's guilty of the kind of things Corny talks about, even if, like him, it's by associaton. The whole of modern pro-wrestling is one big circle-jerk of I'm-better-than-you tittle tattle. Only Lance Storm's blogs are worth reading if you're looking for impartiality and contradiction-free viewpoints.



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Chourico








Since: 27.6.04

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.38
    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    Everything Cornette says in that post is mitigated by the fact that he works happily for TNA, which makes even more baffling booking decisions per hour of television than WWE, despite the fact that most of their backstage guys fit Cornette's bill.


Ah, there's a huge difference between the writers in WWE and TNA. The peeps ruining the show in TNA are a team of wrestlers, and therefore they've paid their dues...
John Orquiola
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Since: 28.2.02
From: Boston

Since last post: 114 days
Last activity: 114 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
    Originally posted by Pizza Delivery Jones


    Ah, there's a huge difference between the writers in WWE and TNA. The peeps ruining the show in TNA are a team of wrestlers, and therefore they've paid their dues...


And Vince Russo, the greatest example of dipshit writer in the history of the wrestling business.
Super Shane Spear
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.31
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    Only Lance Storm's blogs are worth reading if you're looking for impartiality and contradiction-free viewpoints.


Storm is the exception that proves the rule because anybody that has the writing skill or wrestling experience to perform a high quality blog is either already employed or is in their own world of what is real and what is not.

Wrestling (and its sister sport Poker) is by and large a community of marks who want so desperatly to be a part of a very tight knit, CLOSED society. This is why there's a lack of good reporting.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Not to mention that Corny's idea of how wrestling should work is as fucked as Vince's. You can't put the Attitude genie back in the bottle-wrestling isn't a closed clique of stars and gofers and so on. And as an adjunct to that, look who TNA have just picked up-Bobby Lashley, the definition of all that is bad about WWE as Corny sees it.
The reality of what makes wrestling work isn't one or other of these. Its both. Both philosophies have value, but neither will be truly successful on their own.



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GodEatGod
Boudin rouge








Since: 28.2.02

Since last post: 64 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.32
I love Cornette, but some of this just reeked of Stockholm Syndrome to me. "I was treated like crap for years and made to crawl like a worm, and I LOVED it! I deserved it! It made me a better man!". I understand that wrestling is a cut-throat world, full of hierarchies and gossip, but the idea that this is the ideal state of affairs is kind of ludicrous to me. Should WWE hire people who know about wrestling and understand the way wrestling stories are told, rather than sitcom and late night joke writers? Probably. But, at the same time, the idea that a good creative mind shouldn't get a chance unless they've been made to carry Ric Flair's bags doesn't make a great deal of sense either.

To me, the problem isn't necessarily hiring people from outside the closed-off echo chamber of the wrestling world, but in -not- making sure they can convert their ideas into workable wrestling storylines. Too often, there's no overall sweep or arc to angles (see: HHH/Orton leading into Wrestlemania, where stipulations and motivations changed from week to week). Everything becomes a series of incidents, vaguely related, but building towards no climax. That's not to say that can't still be enjoyable television (hell, I love meaningless matches if they're good, like Bourne/Burchill on ECW this week), but it's not going to persuade me to buy a pay per view.

I just think the best way probably is in some middle ground between WWE group think and Cornette's carny mentality.





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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
I think Flea hit on the main point when he said it will be 10 years before we are able to tell. Right now most of the people who generate any sort of real emotion in the WWE fanbase, the guys who keep driving the machine, all came up before the end of the boom, and the Stephanie McMahon creative regime taking over. Taker, HHH, HBK, the Hardys, Edge. So far since then two guys have come up who seem able to truly get a crowd fired up. One of them has only done it very sporadically (Orton) and the other one does it but seemingly not in the way the staff ever intends (Cena). Batista is possibly a third, but between injury, age, and the fact he really only has been part of one truly hot angle (vs. HHH) it is hard to count him that way.

Right now the WWE is in some ways still coasting on the fumes of that boom era, with most of the energy and emotion still coming from the guys created before this current setup. What happens when they leave? When Taker and HBK ride off? When they lose the last few guys who have been trained in how to improv, how to read crowds, how to develop characters in the bounds of what the tv writers hand them? Will we stick around as fans? As much as they market to kids, there sure are still a good chunk of guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s that help push those ratings. When that last generation of "wrestlers" instead of "sports entertainers" hangs it up how long will those fans hang on? Will they drop off the way the last of the old NWA audience seemed to disappear after WCW folded?

I have trouble imagining things staying as they are. It seems hard to believe that WWE could keep a near-monopoly for another decade, continuing to deemphasize wrestling in their product, and remain successful. Of course, who knows what happens when Vince dies (though he says that won't happen)?



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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1985 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
Or it could be that wrestling as Cornette perceives is is dead as an audience attraction, beyond a very small hardcore fanbase.



"And here...we...go."
RYDER FAKIN
Six Degrees of Me








Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
Wrestling (and its sister sport Poker) is by and large a community of marks who want so desperately to be a part of a very tight knit, CLOSED society. This is why there's a lack of good reporting.

The best thing that ever happened to poker was putting it on TV. It brought the chumps out of the closet and made alleged decent players actually bet money (or, backers money) on their fame. I'm all for THAT. And no one reports that they lost money - "I was comped". That means "lost your ass, see you next time!"

To beat the "10 year" reference into the ground. WWE has cultivated a new generation of people willing to pay money, like most of us did (and still do) for a product. I'm not all that concerned that the next crop of stars will be better than the last - I thought I saw it all with Flair, Dusty, Race, Sullivan, etc - then we got Cactus, HBK, Austin and Bret. Or, Eddy, Benoit and Rey.

It's a built in audience with money to spend, regardless of the product. If you don't like it, spend money on DVD's and 24/7 for the "good stuff". Same end result...which is why some people hate Vince, et. al, and live in the past. Who the fuck wants to go to China and make money...or be resposible to Congress?

(the TNA hypocrisy was too easy - it's making a living and not knowing much else! Like Randy Ram, without the popcorn trick)

FLEA



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spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.16
    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    To beat the "10 year" reference into the ground. WWE has cultivated a new generation of people willing to pay money, like most of us did (and still do) for a product. I'm not all that concerned that the next crop of stars will be better than the last - I thought I saw it all with Flair, Dusty, Race, Sullivan, etc - then we got Cactus, HBK, Austin and Bret. Or, Eddy, Benoit and Rey.

I don't know if we can say that the current generation is willing to spend their own money on the product. Most of the merchandise (non-dvd) right now is being sold to children apparently. Children convincing their parents to spend money is a very different animal than spending their own hard earned cash when they're of age and deciding between booze, blow, babes, or Backlash. That's going to be the question. Can a bunch of bodybuilders with tribal tats reading lines from failed sitcom writers connect with these kids enough that they stay with, or at least migrate back to the product once they get old enough to care that most girls don't want to date guys wearing John Cena shirts?

I think though it is likely these stars will be very different than the ones before them. While there were obvious differences in the way the 80's and 90's guys worked, what they were doing was essentially the same. The performers being brought up through the WWE machine are being brought into the business with very different training and different expectations of what constitutes "being good" than those last two generations. I don't say that as a value judgment, but rather perhaps we're getting to a point where soon it will be apples and oranges to compare the past to the present.



    It's a built in audience with money to spend, regardless of the product. If you don't like it, spend money on DVD's and 24/7 for the "good stuff". Same end result...which is why some people hate Vince, et. al, and live in the past. Who the fuck wants to go to China and make money...or be resposible to Congress?


This is why Vince will not be in danger of closing up shop any time soon. Even if the market for his current product declines, the well is, while not endless, certainly quite deep for historical product I would think.



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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.90

    Originally posted by RYDER FAKIN
    I thought I saw it all with Flair, Dusty, Race, Sullivan, etc - then we got Cactus, HBK, Austin and Bret. Or, Eddy, Benoit and Rey.
    FLEA


Just pointing out that you can still see the first two waves mentioned, or at least talk to them. 2/3 of that last wave, you can't.




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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.06

    At first read, it echos the sentiments of anyone who thinks the current state of wrestling and it's presentation sucks. But when I did the math of the great "bookers" - (USA only), not writers, from the past 15 or so years

    Heyman (ECW) / Cornette (SMW) / Sapolsky (ROH)

    Profit = less than zero

    The "writers" for WWE drew 52 million for WM 25


In fairness, it's not like the WWE writing team built their company from the ground up like those three did. It's a lot easier to make 52 million when you're inserted into a pre-existing successful system that's been around for decades.



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Since: 21.8.03
From: the people who brought you Steel Magnolias....

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.56
Hmmm.

I'd like if I may to list some of my thoughts.

On TV, Cornette is shown to be having a greater level of frustration by being over-ridden in decisions.

This post comes out in the same timeframe decrying the loss of the booker's role and the age of the 'writer'.

This is the first blog post in Cornette's commentary site.

Assumption: Cornette hasn't had a history of blogging that I know of.

Assumption: TNA thinks / realizes that most of their fans are hardcore or 'inside'.

I wonder if this is a bit shworky?

I might be wrong. I frequently am.

Anyway, an interesting read nonetheless. Another ponderable:

Of the industries that were around in the 20's and 30's that still are relevant today, I wonder how many of those that are profitable still operate on the same organisational structure? Would be a short list I think.

That's my opinion!
Lexus
Bierwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Stafford, VA

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.44
One of the oldest traditions in Wrestling is old guys bitching about the young guys. Cornette seems to be hanging on to this tradition to a T.





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rv581
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Since: 2.12.02

Since last post: 1481 days
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.50
    Originally posted by Lexus
    One of the oldest traditions in Wrestling is old guys bitching about the young guys. Cornette seems to be hanging on to this tradition to a T.



One thing I've noticed is that ex-wrestlers -- and I guess pretty much everyone in general -- always seem to believe that THEIR personal peak years were the "best" time in whatever industry they were involved in.

If a wrester's peak years were in the mid-80s, then BY GARSH, the mid-80s were the time when wrestling was GOOD!

(Which means, of course, that if they're no longer at their peak... then it's not really THEIR fault. The times just changed, man.)

But I am sympathetic to what he wrote 'cause I did enjoy the Horsemen-era NWA product more than today's WWE.



"Who ate my sandwich???"
jwrestle
Lap cheong








Since: 4.4.03
From: Nitro WV

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.48
    Originally posted by Lexus
    One of the oldest traditions in Wrestling is old guys bitching about the young guys. Cornette seems to be hanging on to this tradition to a T.




I'm siding with Cornette because of being involved in indy wrestling and getting my start in it ten years ago just to come back where he started. Photography and video.

He may be blowing off some steam but I have to say that if we don't keep some of the traditional wrestling it will all turn into "rasslin" which it seem the WWE just is happy to make because they can sell it. Fine. That's why I don't go to your live show and go to bar to watch it for five bucks.

I can say that I was a proud attendant of WM 22, 23, and 24 which were pretty solid Wrestlemania's.

My new addition to my sig might side with some of Cornette blog too.

(edited by jwrestle on 24.4.09 1112)


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I saw a version of this at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival (massive annual comedy festival in Scotland) back in August. Burns was the opening act for Foley then rather than it being a joint show though.
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