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The W - Baseball - Jays Sack Tosca
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The Goon
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Since last post: 14 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.08
Tosca Tossed (Toronto papers have been waiting for two years to use that headline.)

It was inevitable after such a disappointing season. The Jays had been improving year after year to a point where they had 86 wins last year, and there was hope they would break 90 and maybe challenge Boston.

So now this injury-plagued team is directionless and in a bit of a free-fall.

Personally, I blame the horrible new uniforms.
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Since: 9.2.02

Since last post: 214 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.87
    Originally posted by The Goon
    Personally, I blame the horrible new uniforms.
The Toronto road grays...every time I looked, my son and I thought the Yanks were hosting Tampa. I do think the black tops are pretty cool though.



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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1081 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
It's the graphite hats...yikes.

Incidentally, what's the point this late in the season, other than the opportunity for John Gibbons to tell his grandchildren "I was a Major League Manager"?



Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 2 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.65
Hopefully this is just step one of a MASSIVE housecleaning. Toronto seriously need to fire or cut everyone but Wells, Halladay, Rios and maybe a couple of the young pitchers. Everyone on this team is a jobber; it's time to give up on this moneyball bullshit.



SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

Since last post: 1140 days
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.43
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Hopefully this is just step one of a MASSIVE housecleaning. Toronto seriously need to fire or cut everyone but Wells, Halladay, Rios and maybe a couple of the young pitchers. Everyone on this team is a jobber; it's time to give up on this moneyball bullshit.


You know, if they had the money to do anything BUT "this moneyball bullshit", maybe that would be a good idea. But those "jobbers" are what they can afford. The trick is finding the ones that can play. Oakland's in first place again. The other option for Toronto is be the Expos or, I dunno, sell the team and move it. Take your pick.

EDIT: This is not even taking into account that the Blue Jays have been injured ALL YEAR.

(edited by ScottChrist on 9.8.04 1259)


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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.65
The Twins don't use a 'moneyball' system, and they're very competitive. The A's are only successful because of their top three starters, not because of their horrid walks-and-OBP-rule-all-oh-wait-we're-hitting-.250 offense.



SC
Potato korv








Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
Ugh, "moneyball" is not "walks-and-OBP", and the A's aren't even running that formula anymore, they're more pitching-and-defense. The "moneyball" philosophy is more about stuff like finding inexpensive players (Scott Hatteberg or someone like that), using them to the maximum of their ability, and then NOT re-signing them for huge money, and instead letting someone else do that. It's about drafting well and putting together an inexpensive, competitive team.

I seriously wish that book had never been released, because people who, for whatever reason, think slapping a single and getting thrown out at second is a hell of a lot more noble than walking and not, use the term "moneyball" incorrectly - and often - like it's some sort of derogatory term. For a small market team to be competitive, they have to have a plan like this; some sort of idea of what they're focusing their team on, and acquiring players that fit their system, whatever system that may be.

My point is the Blue Jays have no money, and while thus far they have failed (kind of), Ricciardi's general idea of how to run the team has been a good one. They won 86 games last year, and coming into this year, added two worthwhile starters in Miguel Batista and Ted Lilly. Nothing wrong with that, is there? That was really the only change made to the team. They also likely expected Josh Phelps to be a better player than he is, Eric Hinske to bounce back more, and for, I dunno, not everybody to get hurt and playing with mish-mash lineups of whichever nine guys aren't limping that day.

The fact that they have been banged-up all season long is easily a good enough reason for why they've gone from third to fifth. Eventually, the Devil Rays were going to try to reach .500, and give it a real shot. Baltimore improved during the offseason. Both of those teams have had pretty good luck with not having health issues this year. People trying to take walks is about the 30th-biggest reason the Blue Jays are in last place.



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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.28
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    The Twins don't use a 'moneyball' system, and they're very competitive. The A's are only successful because of their top three starters, not because of their horrid walks-and-OBP-rule-all-oh-wait-we're-hitting-.250 offense.


The A's "oh wait we're hitting .250 offense" features nine starters, the lowest of whom is hitting .266. Durazo and Kotsay are .300+, with Hatteberg and Miller over .290. They've got an outside shot at having six guys with 20+ home runs. If Chavez doesn't get hurt, his pace has him putting up 40/100. The offense is very underrated.

The Jays are in a very good spot right now because Delgado's contract is up, meaning they can rid themselves of an injury prone .220 hitter who can't field and free up $18.5 million dollars in payroll. Spent wisely, that money will buy you a bat or two in your lineup and a middle relief core.

This will be the offseason that shows what Riccardi can do. Just because he was a Beane disciple doesn't mean he's got the same knack for it. He's been there two or three years now and not done much, although one could argue that being saddled with Delgado's contract didn't give him the room to move that he needed. This coming offseason we'll see what he's got.



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Since: 12.1.02
From: Fresno, CA

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.93
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    . If Chavez doesn't get hurt, his pace has him putting up 40/100.


Which is incredible, because he missed like a month's worth of time with a broken hand/wrist.



Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    Baltimore improved during the offseason. Both of those teams have had pretty good luck with not having health issues this year.
You're kidding right. The Orioles have been beaten up by the injury bug all year, given that the following guys have spent significant time on the DL:

LHP Omar Daal(all year)
OF Marty Cordona(all year)
1B David Segui
3B Melvin Mora
CF Luis Matos
OF BJ Surhoff
RHP Kurt Ainsworth
LHP Matt Riley
RHP Rick Bauer
Util. Jerry Hairston

And that's just the major guys...



SC
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Valparaiso, IN

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
You consider any of them "major guys" besides Mora and Hairston? Those are a bunch of replaceable parts, and frankly I'd rather Segui and Cordova be hurt than taking up PT. If you think this team would be any better than five games under .500 with Omar Daal and BJ Surhoff you're crazy.



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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Mora and Hairston are the only "major guys" true, but Ainsworth and Riley were supposed to be mainstays in the rotation worth 65 or so starts. Bauer was supposed to be the lights-out right handed middle-reliever he was at the end of last year. Matos hit .300 for most of last year and was expected to be a .280/20/85 guy as the starting CF. And Surhoff is hitting .340 in a limited role as an part-time OF/1B.

We've just gotten lucky, moving Hairston to the outfield, having David Newhan and Dave Borkowski fall out of the sky, and having Daniel Cabrera come up from AA and be lights-out at times.



redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.30
    Originally posted by Grimis
      Originally posted by ScottChrist
      Baltimore improved during the offseason. Both of those teams have had pretty good luck with not having health issues this year.
    You're kidding right. The Orioles have been beaten up by the injury bug all year, given that the following guys have spent significant time on the DL:

    LHP Omar Daal(all year)
    OF Marty Cordona(all year)
    1B David Segui
    3B Melvin Mora
    CF Luis Matos
    OF BJ Surhoff
    RHP Kurt Ainsworth
    LHP Matt Riley
    RHP Rick Bauer
    Util. Jerry Hairston

    And that's just the major guys...






Wouldn't it be more of a story if David Segui actually went through a season WITHOUT spending significant time on the Disabled List?



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Since: 6.1.02
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.24
Not to sound like a whining complainer, but until the city of Toronto(or Baltimore or Tampa for that matter) can move away from the AL East the season is over before it even starts.

The team is in such sad state. They aren't just bad, but so damn boring.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Net Hack Slasher
    Not to sound like a whining complainer, but until the city of Toronto(or Baltimore or Tampa for that matter) can move away from the AL East the season is over before it even starts.

    The team is in such sad state. They aren't just bad, but so damn boring.


Going into the season, I was ready to believe the Jays were wild card contenders. The team just shit the bed; these things happen.

New York dominates the East, sure; and, to a lesser extent, so does Boston. But I wouldn't feel too hopeless, as a Jays fan. Oakland's payroll is less than that of Anaheim and Seattle, two large-market teams, and they do well. The Mets payroll is in the $100m range, and they certainly aren't dominating the NL East. The only legitimately screwed team in the AL East, IMO, is Tampa Bay.



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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1081 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
I figured the Blue Jays had a shot as well. Of course, blowing 7-1 leads like that doesn't help.

Under that logic, though, the Mariners and Angels should run away with the West, the Mets should run away with the east, the Cubs the central, every year...



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