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25.7.14 2014
The W - Baseball - Jason Giambi, steroid user? (Page 2)
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redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 389 days
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.51
    Originally posted by jfkfc
    And by the way, thanks a load for reminding me that Canseco was a Yankee. I was beginning to blot that out, him and Danny Tartabull.







If I wanted to taunt the Yankees with Tartabull, I'd mention they made him the highest paid player in the game in the early 90's at $5 million per. Of course, I'm sure Tartabull's Yankeeography will be aired shortly after "A Fond Reminisce of the Stump Merrill Era" on YES.



The world needs another Warrior Manifesto.
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.43
    Originally posted by redsoxnation
    If I wanted to taunt the Yankees with Tartabull, I'd mention they made him the highest paid player in the game in the early 90's at $5 million per. Of course, I'm sure Tartabull's Yankeeography will be aired shortly after "A Fond Reminisce of the Stump Merrill Era" on YES.
Actually, the Mets signed Bonilla that same offseason in 1991-1992 for a record $29 million ($6 million plus that season), thus making Bobby Bo the highest player in the game. Nyeah friggin nyeah.

And when was that Grady Little retrospective on NESN?



"Before you make fun of someone, walk a mile in their shoes...that way when you DO criticize them, youŽll be a mile away AND youŽll have their shoes."
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.87
I think it is a massive misconception that any baseball player being taken seriously is contingent on whether or not he is on steroids. Everyone knew Barry Bonds was on something, but they looked the other way because he was good. Not everyone on the juice can be Barry Bonds, there's something to be said for his talent. If Giambi was playing at his best and breaking records, no one would have a problem.

All this "integrity of the game" mumbo jumbo is really absurdist bullshit, especially when you have the audacity and the blatant disregard for human life to put it before the health of these athletes. If this is the thinking of the people who follow the game, clearly it has no integrity.

And to further that point, even on the juice Barry Bonds is still a better role model than Babe Ruth, who was a womanizing alcoholic with an eating disorder. And you could say none of that had anything to do with the game, but if we're talking about role models we are dealing with their off-field conduct. So yeah, yay Bonds.







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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.65
You are absolutely right, I care much more about the integrity of baseball and it's record books than I do about the health of either Barry Bonds or Jason Giambi. I guess that makes me a monster. I guess I have no integrity.

Why do I feel this way? Their health is their own, and no one else's. If Jason Giambi wants to pump himself full of steroids, that's fine by me. You'd have to be living in a cave under a rock with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears not to know that steroids have *gasp* side effects. If you're in Giambi's position and you make a decision that stupid, that's on you. Have fun with your gigantic biceps, your balloon-like head, your shrunken testicles, and your tumors, because you did that to yourself. You're the one who suffers the consequences from the juice, so I say plug whatever you want into your body. Just don't come to me looking for sympathy when it backfires because, frankly, you should have known better.

The history of baseball, on the other hand, does not belong exclusively to Barry Bonds or Jason Giambi. It's a tradition that millions of people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy over the past near 200 years, not an operation for juiced up muscleheads to join, fleece people for nine figures, and then retire. Say what you will about Babe Ruth, he may have been a fat guy with a drinking problem and a healthy appetite for female companionship, but he didn't cheat. Neither did Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays, or most if not all other guys in the Hall of Fame. I think it would be a crying shame if five or six years worth of cheating gargantuans are allowed to trample all over a history it has taken well over a century to build.

And finally, for HMD, I don't think people would be any more OK with Giambi if he'd been playing his best baseball. Before last season he was a perennial 40 home run guy and an MVP winner. There is a strong case to be made that this past season showed that Giambi, when off the juice, is nothing special. In the eyes of many he's been exposed as a fraud. I think that's why people are angry over the situation. Giambi fleeced baseball for over a hundred million dollars (unless the Yanks can terminate his deal) simply by being a drug abuser. That's what has people upset.



Screw Ricky
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.25
But fellas,
If steroid use becomes the norm, pretty soon, just to be able to play ball you will have to be on gear. Therein lies the problem.

Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.87
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    If Jason Giambi wants to pump himself full of steroids, that's fine by me. You'd have to be living in a cave under a rock with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears not to know that steroids have *gasp* side effects. If you're in Giambi's position and you make a decision that stupid, that's on you. Have fun with your gigantic biceps, your balloon-like head, your shrunken testicles, and your tumors, because you did that to yourself. You're the one who suffers the consequences from the juice, so I say plug whatever you want into your body. Just don't come to me looking for sympathy when it backfires because, frankly, you should have known better.


Hey, I agree with you to a point. I'm not saying, look at these poor athletes, and they are idiots for trying to flirt with something that is extremely dangerous.

    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    The history of baseball, on the other hand, does not belong exclusively to Barry Bonds or Jason Giambi. It's a tradition that millions of people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy over the past near 200 years, not an operation for juiced up muscleheads to join, fleece people for nine figures, and then retire.


That tradition, that's what you want it to be, but what you're saying it isn't is what it has become. It's a business, and guys hitting home runs is good for business and they are going to turn their heads the other way on this until hearts start exploding in extra innings. This isn't a matter of a few selfish athletes making selfish decisions to get ahead, this is a huge problem with deep profound applications. A sports illustrated article from four years ago postulated, with inside sources, that probably somewhere in the vicinity of 60% of these guys are on something. Whether the rose-coloured glasses you have obviously blowtorched to your orbital bones allow you to see this fact or not, it is what it is: baseball's integrity has already been compromised.

Hissing at the two who got caught is hardly a solution to the problem.

I think 99% of the people who are up in arms over this would do the exact same thing in the place of these athletes. It's easy to say these guys are lousy no-good cheaters, but the people saying this are always Bob Costas types whose extent of athletic experience is limited to jumping to conclusions. They don't understand what it means to compete at that level, you don't, and I don't. But if over sixty percent of them are doing it, obviously the pressure is very great and obviously some of your favourites are probably indulging in it, assuming you like any player still living.




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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.61
I'd rebutt a couple of those points. First, I've never bought the 'you haven't played so you don't understand' argument. Is there pressure in Major League Baseball? Absolutely. Is that an excuse? Hell no. I didn't play hockey either but I know you shouldn't hit a guy over the head with your stick.

The fact that the players union is apparently ready to adopt tighter testing policies without the typical long-winded fight they tend to put up for everything else tells me that there are still a whole lot of guys playing in that league that are legitimate athletes participating in legitimate competition. This doesn't happen so quickly without a lot of players onside. If I were one of the clean guys, I'd be beating down the doors of MLB headquarters to track the cheaters and identify them. It's a pride thing, but if you doubt that then it's a money thing too...if you get rid of the steroid junkies putting up inflated numbers, the legit guys can get their fair share.

SI apparently estimates 60%. According to that ESPN.com article, between 5-7% tested positive in 2003. I'm sure the real number falls somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't sit here and try to argue that Barry Bonds or Jason Giambi are bad guys because they are the only two breaking the rules, I'm not that naive. I do think they should be made an example of, though, the same way Pete Rose was. Put in a legitimate testing policy and line up the proverbial lynch mob at the door of anyone you catch and you go a long way to reversing this problem.

Not everybody needs drugs to hit home runs. Some do, evidently, and it looks like some do if they wanna beat their career high by 24 bombs when they're 37 years old. There are two options. Either you can try and stop it, or you can take the attitude that clean baseball is dead and let it be a race to the bottom. Thankfully the union seems to be behind the former. If anyone in baseball is still on steroids after all this has come out, then they deserve to be hunted down too.

(edited by BigVitoMark on 7.12.04 2359)


Screw Ricky
jfkfc
Liverwurst








Since: 9.2.02

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.14
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    That tradition, that's what you want it to be, but what you're saying it isn't is what it has become. It's a business, and guys hitting home runs is good for business and they are going to turn their heads the other way on this until hearts start exploding in extra innings. This isn't a matter of a few selfish athletes making selfish decisions to get ahead, this is a huge problem with deep profound applications. A sports illustrated article from four years ago postulated, with inside sources, that probably somewhere in the vicinity of 60% of these guys are on something. Whether the rose-coloured glasses you have obviously blowtorched to your orbital bones allow you to see this fact or not, it is what it is: baseball's integrity has already been compromised.
So your suggestion is to damn anyone we THINK is using steroids - using as our evidence the supposition of reporters citing anonymous sources and players that are enormously well-built? Sure, there have been whispers for years about Giambi and Bonds (and others), and many of us, I would believe, have read, heard, and conversed about these rumors. Until actual admissions become public, should we scorn said integrity and just blindly believe all "unnamed sources" and the opinions of the media? There had been no definitive fact until this past week, unless I TOTALLY missed some reports. Please believe that, being a somewhat normal person with (at least I think) a minimum half of a brain, I was not oblivious to these allegations for the past however many years. But just because I don't point my own finger, get up on my soapbox and rant, instruct my son to follow my example and brand these guys cheats, or stop being a fan, doesn't imply that I have had the glasses blow-torched to the orbital bone. If you base your argument on fact with definitive and/or tangible sources, I would sincerely love to read about it and learn the error of my ways.
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    I think 99% of the people who are up in arms over this would do the exact same thing in the place of these athletes.
Can you post the results of this poll? Myself, I cannot fathom the desire I could possibly have for ANYTHING, that would require me to do something akin to the taking of steroids in order to do it "better". If you want to take a poll, factor my opinion in, tell me that you asked 200 people, and only me and one other person said they would NOT do the same exact thing...then I will mourn the state of the world, admit to being naive, and climb back into my shell.
    Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad
    It's easy to say these guys are lousy no-good cheaters, but the people saying this are always Bob Costas types whose extent of athletic experience is limited to jumping to conclusions. They don't understand what it means to compete at that level, you don't, and I don't. But if over sixty percent of them are doing it, obviously the pressure is very great and obviously some of your favourites are probably indulging in it, assuming you like any player still living.
Whereas very very few of us could relate to the pressure of performing as an MLB player, many people still know pressure. Pressure is relative. My pressure to put food on the table for my family might just be as great, if not greater, than Giambi's pressure to be an MVP caliber player. Its not really for me to say one is greater than the other, unless I have been in both spots. With that said, would you say that if I break the rules in order to live up to my expectations and my responsibilities, and get caught, life should go on because "obviously the pressure is very great" and people "don't understand what it means to" do what I need to do?

Maybe we should just assume all of the time, and make blanket judgments without facts: I work with a guy who I know is not well off, and always seems to be struggling financially - he never has money. He is really overweight though, and I would say that in the last two years, he has gained at least 50 pounds. I think its safe to say that he is stealing money to eat. How else could he be so overweight without having money to buy all of that food that he must be eating?! What a lousy no-good thief.



"Before you make fun of someone, walk a mile in their shoes...that way when you DO criticize them, youŽll be a mile away AND youŽll have their shoes."
Hogan's My Dad
Andouille








Since: 8.6.02
From: Canada

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 9 hours
#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.87
Big Vito, those are just the ones that tested positive. One of the reasons I find this situation so murky is because if you want to get away with using steroids, there are ways around it.

Also, I'm not trying to say that "you don't play so you don't get an opinion", but you really don't understand. It's the moral pandering from these condescending "journalists" who act like they are without sin that gets to me.

Maybe I'm just too pessimistic, but I believe many Olympic athletes use performance enhancing drugs. Some of them use illegal ones, and whether you're taking a syringe and filling your bladder with someone else's urine, or whatever other ploy might be used, there are ways around it.

Even if the testing goes through, they can just start using performance-enhancing-but-not-yet-illegal drugs. I just don't think this problem is so easily settled, and I believe "let's just test more and the integrity of the game will be restored" is very wishful thinking and is more for your peace of mind than any kind of concrete resolution to this issue.

jfkfc, I said I think 99% of people would do the same thing, I didn't say they would for sure. It was just an opinion, I presented it as such and I think your reaction suggests I presented it to be a fact. And I have to say, my belief is that most people would answer in a moral fashion on a poll, but if placed in the situation would react differently. No one knows now what they would do in a given situation, but it's a different story altogether when you're in the moment and have to make the choice. In that position, virtually every human being makes moral errors at some point in their lives, and I don't believe in castigating them eternally for theirs. I've done some things I'm not proud of, I'd hate to think those mistakes have undone all the good in my life.

We're talking about two different kinds of pressure here. With you or I, in your/my regular job, the pressure might be to steal or to mug someone or to do something that causes serious and direct harm to another human being. When these guys take juice, they're only hurting themselves. You may disagree with that, you may worship the game like it's an institution on par with a religion, but the other pain they cause is indirect. People who do that are not high on my list of priorities to wipe out when there are people on the street who cause more harm than this. Maybe I draw the line at thinking John McCain is wasting time and money on this when they are much more important things he should be doing with his time.



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I would just like to say, those idiots are not representative of all Sox fans. They give a bad name to South Siders everywhere. What a dolt. If you're going after someone, go after Billy Koch, who blew his 2nd save in this big early season game.
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