After watching six plus hours of Tiger Mask, 4 hours of Hall and various other New Japan last night and this morning, I need to weigh in on this. I don't understand the big deal with Japanese wrestling. Unless it's Tiger Mask, Jushin Liger, El Samurai or the best of Dynamite Kid, Benoit, Jericho, Eddy or anyone else who went over there and had good matches, I don't see what the big deal is. Unless it's one of the heavies mentioned, I don't see the matches being that much better than anything I see on RAW or Smackdown main events (or even Rey/Angle for that matter) or on pay per view. I've given it time, I've watched a lot of Japanese wrestling, and unless it's someone I really care about, I just don't care.
Half the time, I'm in the dark, because I see match-up's and hear familiar names I've heard mentioned and watch a bit more closely, and I get really disappointed. All in all, I'm very disappointed with their product. I don't see the wrestling as being THAT spectacular that I should go out of my way to order the tapes to watch it. Perhaps there's just an elitist faction that loves to bash WWE, I don't know, but for me, it's not even an alternative anymore. I'm interested in good storytelling and matches that entertain me. Sure, WWE isn't Shakespeare or anything, but color me entertained. I'm even willing to give NWA another chance, especially with the introduction of Hall and Pac.
I guess just color me confused. I've given various other forms of wrestling from around the world a view and the only ones I've come out liking are usually the ones where it was a big name star facing another big name star (like those old ECW Lucha Events, or the Lucha stuff featuring Psychosis and Rey, or the Japanese material with Benoit or Liger or Tiger Mask). I just don't see what's so special. It's different, I'll give it that. But, I don't see the wrestling being so overpoweringly great that I should go out of my way to get it. In fact, I've seen more bad wrestling than good. It's like sifting through an hour of mediocrity for that one gem. I don't know, it just seems like an expensive hobby to me, and I for one, am out.
it is overrated by the people on the DVDVR board, but I think that it is still generally good. I feel the same way about most American wrestling too, though.
It's not clear what all you watched, but the Japanese heavyweight wrestling is very different from American wrestling, with more emphasis on submission holds. It's also a lot stiffer at times, which I love. I don't really know what to tell you, since I don't know what you watched, but it is different. Better? I don't know about that.
Edit: You watched that Best of Scott Hall in Japan comp? That might be part of the problem right there. I saw him fight Mutoh in what had to be the worst Triple Crown match ever, job to Don Frye in 10 seconds or whatever, fight Giant Silva or Giant Singh, in one of the most awful matches ever, and I think he fought Scott Norton one time, in a very dissapointing match.
OK, wait a minute - "a lot" of puroresu is watching 4 hours...of *Scott Hall*...in *2001* New Japan. Am I getting this right?
Confused is right - whoever told you to go after THAT stuff was doing you a disservice. The stuff you want is:
Michinoku Pro, 1996 All Japan, 1989-1995 (and the title matches from '96) New Japan, 1994-early 1997 All Japan Women's, 1992-1995
Most anything else to come since has been pretty godawful compared to the best stuff the promotions produced...but they're still better than WWE most of the time because there are noticeable stories being told with the wrestling, if you know what you're looking at.
I'd say that you picked a poor representative sample on which to base your opinion.
But, it's just that. Your opinion.
I at least give you credit for trying something new.
Personally, I watch more stuff from Japan and Mexico now than I do WWF.
You're all so WONDERFUL. Why did they ever have to remove you from the continuity? You'd have made for MARVELOUS stories. You WILL make marvelous stories. And the FIRST story of the new world will be a story of REVENGE! -- The Psycho Pirate, Animal Man 23, May 1990.
I wouldn't go out there badmouthing Gordy, Doc, or Funk based on their US work that quickly - track down what Doc & Gordy did in World Class or Mid-South, and of course there's Funk's 89 run in NWA. Then again, if you're watching just about anything from Funk after '89, you're asking for trouble.
Actually, of all the things I watched at least the Hall (about an hour and a half) stuff was entertaining. Watching Hall slap around a couple of Japanese tag teams and perform modestly well was my bread and butter. But, I digress...
I DO like the tournemants, but have yet to buy the sets with the entire series (the 94-96 stuff with Benoit, Liger, Malenko and Eddy), but for some reason, I just can't get into the rest. It's not even a language barrier thing either. I've seen some REALLY good stuff, from the names I know, and I've also seen stuff that was absolutely awful.
As for Dr. Death Steve Williams, I would have to see it to believe it. I personally HATE that man.
Hey Deion, I could have sworn you said in another thread that you got the Ric Flair promo tape. Do you recommend that? I was thinking of getting that and his best of matches with Ricky Steamboat. I'm sold on the fued tape no questions asked but not really on the promo. What say you?
Hate him personally all you want - he's been in better matches than Last Call Hall's ever had, and he's been in quite a few more of them. The 94 Champion Carnival Final is probably a better match than anything Shawn Michaels has been in, too, for that matter.
I've made it through about two hours of the interview tape and it's pretty awesome. I'd recommend it. It starts off in like 85 or 86 and It's gotten to around the 87, 88 stuff. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping it's yelling, screaming, throwing a fit Flair from the WWF ("RAZOR! Did you hear what PERFECT JUST SAID!? He said that HE WAS THE LEGEND! That HE WAS THE TRAILBLAZER!?"). But, it's pretty classic stuff. I'd get both, Steamboat feud and interviews, myself. It's worth the price of admission (I paid a little less than ten for mine, but I'd definitely go up to ten).
As for Williams being better than Hall, beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend. I'll take a mediocre wrestling, yet oh-so entertaining Hall over Dr. Death any day of the week.
I'll be honest I'm ignorant and don't know much about Japanese Wrestling. But I always here great things about but then I see/hear Scott Norton is a big deal there. So something just doesn't add up to me.. lol
(edited by Net Hack Slasher on 15.9.02 0226) WWE new slogan "WWE: circling the drain"
Oh, hell yeah! I gots to get me some of that boring brawling action!!!
Ok, all kidding aside, I know that some Americans who are actually o.k. wrestlers have made it big in Japan (namely Funk and Benoit, who's a North American) and I haven't seen a whole heap load of Japanese wrestling (and about 70% of the stuff I've seen is good Benoit stuff and FMW crap), but I really don't get it either.
I'm just going to plead ignorance, I guess, as the thing that most people hype up is how 'stiff' it is, which bores me to death, so whatever. "Stiff" doesn't necessarily mean, you know, "good".
And...uh...Jubuki, hating Scott Hall will forever be YOUR loss. So there.
There really is no overall quality difference between America and Japan. You get just as much crap over there as over here, it's just that only the good stuff makes it over here due to none of us actually, y'know, WANTING to watch the crap. Imagine buying tapes consisting solely of matches between Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Edge, Jericho, William Regal, Rey Rey, Jamie Noble, Kidman, Taka, Hurricane, Funaki, Lance Storm and Test. Well, okay, maybe not Test. Point is you'd get good-to-great wrestling every time, which is exactly what happens with Japan over here-we simply get large amounts of the good stuff and forget about the crap.
Apparently, I Am
The Result Of This Survey Was Really, Really Disturbing To Me
Can we get the thread title changed to "ignorance reigns supreme"?
Yes, Scott Norton is a big deal over there - when you're dealing with a homogeneous population made up of men who are, on average, well below 6 feet tall and well under 200 pounds, someone like Norton is going to be impressive-looking. It's even *more* impressive when a native hero (say, Mutoh or Chono) beats the big, lumbering gaijin -- which is sort of the whole point of making the big fat Americans stars: so that they can job out to the natives. Does everyone see how that works now? The only Americans who become genuinely respected are ones who can (or could at some time) go: Vader, Stan Hansen, the Funk brothers, Flair, Williams & Gordy, etc.
As for an overall quality difference - yes, there is just as much crap over there. But how do *I* know that? It's because the tapes DO make it over here. Some people, believe it or not, do go out of their way to watch the crap. FMW had DVDs in the US for these very fans.
No, stiff doesn't equate to good - but it helps. It's better than watching, say, the Rock slap someone and pretend it's a punch. Suspension of disbelief is never so important in wrestling until you watch someone fuck it up over and over.
And when did I go as far as anyone here and say I "hated" Scott Hall? I don't hate him - that would suggest I think about him more than once a year. I just recognize that he only had a handful of really good/great matches and stopped having them after '95 or '96. That isn't hard to spot - just watch the matches and all the proof anyone needs is right there.
Well i just got done watching a tape i bought called Best of 1996 Volume 6. One of the matches on it is Kawada vs. Kobashi from October 18th, 1996. I didn't say any spectacular moves or anything that i've never seen before, but I have to admit I liked the match. The main difference I noticed was how defensive it is. Just about every match you'll see on Raw is just wrestlers exchanging offensive moves, while in this match it was very defensive, the two of them blocked each others suplexes like 10 times before someone actually succeeded in it, and when they finally did get the suplex it made it feel like it was a big thing while when watching Raw you see a suplex every couple of moves and it's no big deal. They are also very defensive on the submission moves, rather than just try and grab the ropes like 80% of the time over here, they will try and kick or punch their opponent to make them let go. At one point one of them had the other in a figure four, and instead of just turning it over and then the guy letting to, they would turn it over and over again. And they would inch back and forth towards the ropes. I just thought it was a lot smarter wrestling, like a game of chess. So I thought it was pretty good.
However I did like the Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Psicosis on that tape better.
By they way, i've heard of both Kawada and Kobashi, but i've never seen their matches or even pictures of them, and i can't read or understand the japanese on the tape so could somebody tell me which is which? One was wearing long black tights with some yellow on it, and the other was wearing the short red tights.
Hating on someone for liking a certain wrestler is ignorant. Period. I like Hall. So what? I think Dr. Death is trash. That doesn't mean I can't respect Jubuki's opinion. A lot of the Japanese stuff I've seen without the big names is trash. I'd go so far as to say a about 90 percent of the New Japan stuff I got was unwatchable garbage (the stuff not featuring Hall). Me, personally, I just see bunch of stiff ass guys who can't really sell much. It's not my cup of tea, personally. I'd rather watch Mark Henry or Rikishi, who both entertain me for some reason, and be mediocre than some Japanese guy who I've never heard of and doesn't make me laugh or entertain. I'm just not that impressed with lariat's either, I've noticed how devastating they are, depending on the guy delivering it. I just personally don't understand the hype and feel a bit let down. And, while it's not my cup of tea I can't condemn somebody for watching it.
I like Rock. I think Rock is the master of making this stuff look incredible. Sometimes flashy, sometimes not so much, but I would have to say he and Angle are my two favorites of making this stuff just look good. I don't condemn anyone that doesn't feel the same way.
I still like the tourney system, and a lot of the American guys, or REALLY talented guys (Dynamite Kid, Liger, Samurai and Tiger Mask) are over there and have done classic stuff. I'll watch those, but I'll be a little more less enthusiastic with any Japanese purchases in the future.
(edited by WhoBettahThanDeion on 15.9.02 1355) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the HBO show was seen on Wednesday evening, Vince McMahon likely didn't know what Piper had to say until then. Meaning, when they taped Smackdown, they had no idea Roddy would be gone after the show.