Cena is further along as a worker right now than Rock was when he took off. Rock didn't become a really good worker until 2000; Cena's only been in the E for a little over a year and just had the great match with Angle (plus the shockingly good match with Undertaker). The Angle match was at least as good as the two great matches Rocky had before 2000 (vs. HHH at SummerSlam 98 and vs. Austin at Backlash 99).
Originally posted by QuezzyNo my argument is that tons of people don't like him.
And I'm sure there are tons of people who don't like The Rock. However, I dare say the majority of wrestling fans DO like Cena. Just judging from crowd reactions whenever he's on TV.
If even if you and whoever else likes him it still doesn't make him as good as THE ROCK, we're talking about the number one guy in the business and Cena isn't even top 10. This is just a ridiculous argument.
Was this dictated by some committee or something? In your mind, The Rock might be #1. However, in other's minds, Joh Cena might be #1 or King Kong Bundy might be #1. Saying that someone shouldn't get pushed because "They're not #1! THIS GUY IS!!!" is a ridiculous argument.
And sure the Rock might have his own material prepared but Cena's GIMMICK is that HE IS a freestyler. But he's not freestylin, he writes it and memorizes and says it. That's not freestylin, that's a phony.
Uh, yeah. And The Rock's gimmick is that he's a tough ass-kicker, but he pulls all of his punches. So what's your point? Didn't you JUST say in a recent post that wrestling is a work?
While I'd love to see Cena break out and be given a run at the top of the card, its WAY too early to be talking about him as the next Rock and building a company around him.
Cena's first run (minus rap gimmick) was pretty woeful, and his current incarnation has the potential to get pretty old, pretty quickly. In order to make his raps clearly audible to every eejit in the crowd he often has to slow them down considerably which can take a lot of energy and enthusiasm out of his promos. Becasue of that he'll have to keep the content of his raps fresh and varied, which is something he'll struggle to do long term when he comes up against the same opponents again and again.
While some of us bemoaned the repetitiveness of Rocky's promos, the overwhelming majority of fans didn't give a damn. It didn't matter that they knew what was coming or that they had heard him deliver the same promo a hundred times before. The guy had so much energy and raw charisma that he could have pretty much gone out and got uber-pops just for breaking wind.
That sort of charsima is pretty damned rare and arguably only Rocky, Austin, and Hogan have displayed it in recent times.
Cena has the potential to be a solid main eventer in the near future without question. But if they're gonna start expecting him to pop buy-rates and sell merchandise in the immediate future, then I reckon they're sorely misguided.
Originally posted by oldschoolhero"Cena's first run (minus rap gimmick) was pretty woeful"
Four Words: Blue Chipper Rocky Miavia.
Doh! I guess I should have seen that coming.
The point I was trying to make though is that that early run of Cena's is the only evidence how he would stand up in the absence of his current gimmick. Comparisons to arguably the most popular wrestler in modern times are thus somewhat premature at this stage.
First of all, never did I say that wiggers are alright and people acting like wiggers aren't. They are both pathetic.
Second of all the Rock is the number one guy in the business. If you ask anybody to name a wrestler it's him. John Cena would hardly get anybody saying him first.
Third of all, i'm not disputing John Cena is popular but you guys are way overestimating his pops. He's nowhere near the crowd reaction The Rock gets. Nobody chants Cena's name. Kurt, Jericho, Eddie, Austin, just to name a few get way louder pops. He has his fanbase. But so do the Hardys, people cheer when they take off their shirts. Rey Mysterio gets pops as loud as Cena for doing the 619. Booker T gets as big pops as he does for doing the spinarooni. RVD gets pops for doing the RVD sign. These pops have fans behind them but it's not like The Rock, or Austin, or Kurt where it's pretty much the entire crowd behind them.
And if you would choose John Cena number ONE to build your federation then you're just stupid.
After seeing him at a house show, the pop when his music hit matched anyone else on the show and the rap he did was awesome. Whether he freestyles or not is not an issue, the guy went for about 4 verses without stumbling over his words once. Benoit f$*ks up when given one line to do.
As much as I rate someone like Benoit in the ring, Cena has far more chance of being a massive star.
oldschoolhero:Well, that's just not true. Rocky was mad over as a face in late '98
And unless your calendar is different than mine, late 1998 would be after the ladder match in August. The Rock was not getting babyface reactions prior to SummerSlam. He was in the Nation-DX feud, did the promo where he humiliated Chyna while DX couldn't save her, and although he was clearly over with the fans, he was not being cheered.
But the fans began to cheer him during his match at SummerSlam, and those reactions continued until he turned heel at Survivor Series. From that one match they began booking him as a face, putting him against Undertaker and Kane, splitting the Nation, and so forth. It was the match that made him a superstar.
This does not mean that the Rock became Chris Benoit after that match, and was suddenly a great worker. What it means is that he'd already shown the fans that he had the speaking skills, the presence, and the "it" to be a superstar. Once he showed that he could deliver inside the ring at the top level, he was made. John Cena has not shown that yet.
EDIT: What is this "it's not a gimmick"? John Cena is a white guy from suburban Massachusetts. Did you see the story that Confidential did on his childhood? Did you get any sense that he was a hardcore thug who battle rapped his way out of the trailer park? The fact that he has a natural ability for rhyme doesn't make it any less of a gimmick.
It's an extension of his personality. It's John Cena with the volume turned way up. I saw the Confidential piece and I saw a huge hip hop fan.
Cena's character has never been portrayed as "a hardcore thug who battle rapped his way out of the trailer". As a heel, he was originally presented as white guy pretending to be a black rapper which at first was gimmicky. Now he's just John Cena, who happens to cut freestyles instead of the traditional promo.
It's not gimmicky, it's just an extension of his real personality and that's why it works. He's a natural at it.
He can cut a great intense promo without rapping as well but he needs to keep the hip hop flavor because that's what people want to see. That's what the young male demographic is into and Cena can pull it off without being a joke like Too Cool. Too Cool was a gimmick, John Cena's a character. The Rock and Stone Cold weren't gimmicks. The Ringmaster was a gimmick. Gimmicks rarely work anymore but characters do.
Cena lacks one thing that I think alot of people forget the Rock has an uncanny mastery of..timing. When The Rock is in the ring every move he executes is very crisp, flows well, and is in the right place at the right time. May not be the most technically beautiful moves on earth, but they're done with gusto. That combined with his showmanship are the main ingredents to what makes him so great and unique.
Cena has pretty good mic skills. If he could stop worrying about rhyming and just get to the point they would improve ten fold, even if he keeps the thug-a-be gimmick.
But his movements in the ring just aren't there yet. Sometimes it's like he almost tries too hard (lots of wiggling beyond the call of duty, etc.) It doesn't exude star, like he can outside the ring. One of his biggest problems since he started in the WWE is his finisher. That weird suplex thing he did at first just didn't fly and the F-U is a watered down F-5/DVD. Personally I think he should change over to something with a little more snap to it. Can he fix it? If Angle can get the Angle Slam looking good, I'm sure Cena can fix the F-U. (Getting Orton to do a decent diamond cutter? That could be beyond the laws of physics, I'm not sure.)
But until he can get these peices of the puzzle togather, I must say I don't think he's ready for da bigger time.
I think Cena's ring work will improve over time. Will he ever be as good as The Rock? Only time will tell. But I dare say that he is further along in the ring than The Rock was at this stage in his career. And working with Angle and Benoit night in and night out will do nothing but good for Cena's improvements.
As far as interviews, Cena did plenty of non-rhyming heel interviews in OVW, and they were quite awesome. He definitley can cut a straight heel promo. However, the rhyming thing is over right now, so he should stick with it for the time being. If the fans eventually grow tired of it, that's when he should change it. Right now, however, he doesn't need to.
"And unless your calendar is different than mine, late 1998 would be after the ladder match in August."
Rock got mad face heat just COMING OUT for the match at MSG that year. The match had nothing to do with it. He was getting over as a face before that match. And, lest we forget, this is the same crowd that then booed Rocky for no reason and went wild for megaheel Brock at last year's SummerSlam.
"If you ask anybody to name a wrestler it's him."
I'd actually more expect answers like "The Undertaker" or "Hulk Hogan", myself.
"Nobody chants Cena's name."
Yes they do. You must have turned the sound down during his recent matches or something.
Murdoch Had Just Made A Mistake That No Man Ever Should-He Kissed A Big Angry Black Guy
"Once [Rock] showed that he could deliver inside the ring at the top level, he was made. John Cena has not shown that yet."
For one, the Kurt Angle match was, like, really good, and for two, did Brock Lesnar ever show a hell of a lot in the ring when he was getting pushed to the top? The Rock match at SummerSlam was pretty good, but his getting over had a lot more to do with pinning the Rock than it did with having a good match. Unless Lesnar wasn't "really" over until he had the **** Hell in a Cell with Undertaker two months later.
Originally posted by oldschoolheroRock got mad face heat just COMING OUT for the match at MSG that year. The match had nothing to do with it. He was getting over as a face before that match. And, lest we forget, this is the same crowd that then booed Rocky for no reason and went wild for megaheel Brock at last year's SummerSlam.
He was not being cheered beforehand. The match had everything to do with it. He was not getting over as a babyface because he was a complete heel. You're confusing Madison Square Garden with Nassau.
Beat your head against the wall on this point all you want, but see how far Cena goes without a break-out performance inside the ring. And the match with Angle was not it. It was a good match, but the problem is that Angle had been doing much better matches right before it with Lesnar. The match with Cena was a step back from what everyone had been seeing, when what Cena needs is a big step forward.
What's the big deal about The Rock not getting cheered before his SummerSlam performance? So, you're saying The Rock NEVER got cheered before that big match. And Cena hasn't had a big match like that yet? Well, Cena IS getting cheered right now. So, doesn't that mean he's MORE over than The Rock?
Now, before people jump down my throat: No, I'm not saying that Cena is more over than The Rock. What I'm saying is the point is ridiculous. Cena is over right now. You don't NEED a ***** classic to get yourself over. Does it help? Yes. Is it needed? Well, obviously not in this case.
You know, if Cena REALLY wanted to be the "next Rock," then this is the perfect time for him to re-turn and pull the ol' Survivor Series screwjob on his team, leading to a Team Lesnar victory. It would lead up to big matches with a pissed-off Holly, Bradshaw, Benoit and (especially) Angle.
It is long and vigorous, like the penis of a jackass."-- Sidney Smith, describing a scholarly piece in the Edinburgh Review
Tiny: Wayne! How you doin'? Wayne: Hey Tiny, who's playing today? Tiny: Jolly Green Giants and the Shitty Beatles. Wayne: Shitty Beatles? Are they any good? Tiny: Man, they suck! Wayne: Then it's not just a clever name --- from Wayne's World
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Can't answer the second one because I don't know, but the Havoc 1999 fiasco: Vince Russo had JUST started booking. For weeks leading up to the show, Hogan "no showed" and on the one Nitro he was at, he stormed off angrily about something.