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The W - Current Events & Politics - It's pretty close to official now
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Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3249 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
Gore to Endorse Howard Dean, Sources Say

You gotta know Lieberman is busy crafting an Al Gore voodoo doll right now. Barring any Condit-esque missing interns, this probably cements Dean as the dem's nominee.

I'll still be pulling for Bush (voting libertarian unless Ashcroft does the world a favor and dies before next November), but unlike in 2000 I'm not horrified at the concept of him losing. Dean seems like a pretty good guy, wouldn't make a terrible president.



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay
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DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 20 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.52
Dean has won nothing yet that I know of. He has everything to lose by being in this position. Hopefully for his sake he will take this month and spend it meditating on how not to f*** it up (couldn't resist). If the media thinks he is the nominee, I assume they will start digging for dirt ASAP.

I doubt Lieberman is mad at Gore. IN his heart he has to know he makes AL Gore look positively animated and passionate. he also knows he is too moderate.

Finally (and I'm not a Dean supporter) Dean must wrench control of the party from the Clintonistas or even if he is the nominee, the platform won't jive well with his candidacy IMO.



Perception is reality
Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3249 days
Last activity: 3242 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
Oh I know that nothing is etched in stone yet, but those putting money on anyone other than Dean after this is doing so because they love betting on longshots.



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.00
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    Gore to Endorse Howard Dean, Sources Say

    You gotta know Lieberman is busy crafting an Al Gore voodoo doll right now. Barring any Condit-esque missing interns, this probably cements Dean as the dem's nominee.

    I'll still be pulling for Bush (voting libertarian unless Ashcroft does the world a favor and dies before next November), but unlike in 2000 I'm not horrified at the concept of him losing. Dean seems like a pretty good guy, wouldn't make a terrible president.


You're a Libertarian, and wouldn't mind Dean? Please explain. (Really, I mean it; I want to know why you don't find him objectionable).

I'm largely a libertarian, at heart, but I'll be voting for Bush for one reason: foreign policy.



Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54

    I'm largely a libertarian, at heart, but I'll be voting for Bush for one reason: foreign policy.


Really? Wow, I'd have thought that if anything, this nonsense in Iraq would turn people off. Do you really feel safer now than you did two years ago, what with more of the world (even the allies) more pissed off at America than ever before?

Anyone else get the feeling that having Al Gore's endorsement is sort of like having the teacher call you up to the front of the class to congratulate you on having the best attendance?




Oh Tino...put some pants on for God's sake.-- Chuckc14 in the Worst Album Covers thread Click Here (The W)

Manny [Ramirez] could show up for spring training with ice-blue hair, a "Free Lee Boyd Malvo" tattoo and a batting helmet made out of chorizo and I wouldn't be surprised. Hey, it's just Manny being Manny.-- Bill Simmons

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Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3249 days
Last activity: 3242 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    You're a Libertarian, and wouldn't mind Dean? Please explain. (Really, I mean it; I want to know why you don't find him objectionable).

    I'm largely a libertarian, at heart, but I'll be voting for Bush for one reason: foreign policy.

I'm more Republican than libertarian, but I refuse to vote for Ashcroft (besides, I live in South Carolina. My vote LITERALLY doesn't matter, Bush will win in a landslide here). Dean would still be a nightmare for capitalism, but I don't get that "Big Brother" feel from Howard that I did from Al.

Besides, what REALLY scared me about 2000 was having PMRC founder Tipper anywhere NEAR the Oval Office. I don't wish death on anyone, but I can't deny that if I heard there had been a tragedy concerning her it would probably make me smile.



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1219 days
Last activity: 1015 days
#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
This probably helps Dean with the Democratic base. Other than that, I think the effects will be negligible.



The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business.
- Andrew Mellon
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2983 days
Last activity: 196 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by Barbwire Mike
    Besides, what REALLY scared me about 2000 was having PMRC founder Tipper anywhere NEAR the Oval Office.


You mean like she was from 1992 to 2000, where one bullet, illness, incapacitation and/or tragic folding-couch accident would've made her First Lady?

With respect to censorship and bowdlerization issues, what scared me about 2000 was not only having Al and Tipper in the top spot, but having Tipper's heir apparent as the Veep candidate. Lieberman is just as bad as Tipper when it comes to anything-people-enjoy-is-the-root-of-all-evil hysteria, and WORSE in many respects (Tipper's at least been quieter in recent years, whereas Lieberman's picked that banner up and run with it. If I wanted someone who sounds like Jack Thompson in office, I'd write Jack in, and then go get a lobotomy.)

The Gore endorsement is a boost for Dean, but an even bigger rotten-fish-slap-to-the-face for Lieberman, and I couldn't be happier about THAT. About the only thing that could top it would be for someone to kidnap Lieberman, strap him to a chair, and make him watch gangsta-rap videos Clockwork Orange-style for a few weeks.

(edited by vsp on 9.12.03 0632)


"There were times when I intensely wanted to walk out of the theater and into the fresh air and look at the sky and buy an apple and sigh for our civilization, but I stuck it out." -- Roger Ebert
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1219 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Here's what Lieberman had to say"

    Originally posted by experts from San Francisco Chronicle


    Sen. Joe Lieberman said Tuesday he was caught "completely off-guard" by the revelation that former Vice President Al Gore was endorsing Lieberman rival Howard Dean for the Democratic presidential nomination.

    "I was surprised," Lieberman acknowledged in a nationally broadcast interview, but he said, "I'm more determined than ever to fight for what I believe is right for my party and my country." ....

    ...."I'll tell you, I'll always remain grateful" to Gore for choosing him for the vice presidential nod, Lieberman said.

    Reminded that he had declined to announce his campaign for the 2004 nomination until Gore had made his own decision about running, Lieberman said: "I did what I thought was right. I couldn't run against the guy who gave me an opportunity to run for vice president."......

    ...."Well, you'd have to ask Al," he said, "because I'm the same person today I was when he said those very kind things about me ... to put me into position to be president in the case of an emergency.".....

    .....The Connecticut senator said Gore's move surprised him because he believes Dean's position on key issues are at odds with Gore's.

    "That's why I'm surprised here," Lieberman said. "Al Gore has endorsed someone here who has taken positions diametrically opposite" of the former vice president.

    "What really bothers me is that Al is supporting a candidate who is so fundamentally opposed to the basic transformation that Bill Clinton brought to this party in 1992," moving it to a more middle-of-the-road stance on economic policy and other areas, Lieberman said.

    "So, Al Gore has to explain why he's endorsing somebody who I think will take our party and our country backward," the senator said.









The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business.
- Andrew Mellon
vsp
Andouille








Since: 3.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2983 days
Last activity: 196 days
#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
Shorter Lieberman:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!



"There were times when I intensely wanted to walk out of the theater and into the fresh air and look at the sky and buy an apple and sigh for our civilization, but I stuck it out." -- Roger Ebert
Gugs
Bierwurst








Since: 9.7.02
From: Sleep (That's where I'm a viking)

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.32
    Originally posted by Joe Lieberman
    "I'm more determined than ever to fight for what I believe is right for my party and my country." ...."What really bothers me is that Al is supporting a candidate who is so fundamentally opposed to the basic transformation that Bill Clinton brought to this party in 1992,"...."So, Al Gore has to explain why he's endorsing somebody who I think will take our party and our country backward,"


Party before country. That's what's wrong with America today. People care more about what their party thinks than what they think. I hate affirmative action, but I also thought we went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. I love the death penalty, but I also love letting gay people get married. Neither party would let me run for anything because I don't toe the party line. Why can't somebody just run on what they personally believe, as opposed to their party?

Money, of course. It's always money.

(edited by gugs on 9.12.03 1100)


    Originally posted by ringmistress
    You may not believe this, but one year, I pretended I was a mistress (of the S&M variety). I was told I had the right voice for it. Just wanted to let you know that.


I love this place.
DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 20 days
Last activity: 3 hours
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.54
    Originally posted by gugs
      Originally posted by Joe Lieberman
      "I'm more determined than ever to fight for what I believe is right for my party and my country." ...."What really bothers me is that Al is supporting a candidate who is so fundamentally opposed to the basic transformation that Bill Clinton brought to this party in 1992,"...."So, Al Gore has to explain why he's endorsing somebody who I think will take our party and our country backward,"


    Party before country. That's what's wrong with America today. People care more about what their party thinks than what they think. I hate affirmative action, but I also thought we went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. I love the death penalty, but I also love letting gay people get married. Neither party would let me run for anything because I don't toe the party line. Why can't somebody just run on what they personally believe, as opposed to their party?

    Money, of course. It's always money.

    (edited by gugs on 9.12.03 1100)


Not to defend him, but that really is the way the system works, otherwise why have the party affiliation. Dean has a problem with the party platform as it stands now. If he does win, he will have to work to have a more compatible platform coming out of the convention.

gugs, the problem isn't his support of the party. The problem is the party platform should focus on what is really best for the country. The candidates by their affiliation are strongly tied to the part's stances. If either party would start worrying about stands that were best for the country instead of supporting their lockstep ideologies, we would all be better off.



Perception is reality
Barbwire Mike
Boudin rouge








Since: 6.11.03
From: Dudleyville

Since last post: 3249 days
Last activity: 3242 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.35
It's a tough call, really. In a perfect world politics wouldn't be the detestable profession it is if people actually governed with their minds instead of loyalty to party heads. On the other, there's enough of a groundswell of support for Gore ("stolen election" or not... half the country voted for him) where if he endorsed someone that far back it would only splinter the party further and while it wouldn't break my heart at all that's the last thing the democrats need right now.

So he was caught between a rock and a hard place, and while I have no sympathy for the man himself I do for the situation he was in there.

And to second vsp, yeah Lieberman's views on entertainment scare me just as much as Tipper's. I've been going after the PTC for years (NWS, and a bit politically incorrect).



Lethalwrestling.com: If you don't read us, you're probably gay
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1219 days
Last activity: 1015 days
#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Incidentally, TechCentralStation views this as the first proxy battle of the 2008 process:

Walk out on a limb with me here and assume that former Vermont Governor Howard Dean is defeated by President George W. Bush in the 2004 presidential election. Who picks up the pieces?

The assumption has been that New York Senator Hillary Clinton does, quickly and efficiently, and in so doing becomes the de facto Democratic standard bearer for the 2008 campaign. "She's the nominee the day after Dean goes down," a Democratic friend told me this week. You would be hard-pressed to find seven people in political and media circles who disagree with that statement.

And so the battle is joined; Gore vs. Clinton 2008 began on December 9th, 2003. It has been the subtext of the 2004 campaign to date. Now it's out in the open for all to see.

There is one man, however, who thinks that he will pick up the pieces after the 2004 Democratic debacle. His name is Al Gore, the former vice president and winner (in the popular vote) of the 2000 election. He chose not to run this time around, for obvious reasons, but left the door wide open for a Nixon-like return to the '08 campaign. And this week he all but announced his candidacy for the 2008 Democratic Presidential nomination by endorsing Gov. Dean for president.

Today's endorsement is a transformational event in two respects; (1) it will make Gov. Dean the prohibitive favorite to win the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination and, (2) it will make you think differently about Al Gore.

From Gore's point of view, the latter piece is what matters. He's doing something no one expected him to do. He's throwing down the gauntlet in front of Hillary and her husband's hired hacks at the Democratic National Committee. And he's picking a fight with all the conventional wisdom ("Gore's finished") in the world.

It's a very shrewd move. Start with the least likely outcome. If Governor Dean defeats President Bush in 2004, Al Gore becomes Secretary of State or a Supreme Court Justice or whatever he wants, the day after the election is over. That's how much Dean will owe him.

If Dean loses, Gore will be the rightful heir to the Dean apparatus; the single most impressive fund-raising and organizing operation in Democratic Party politics. He'll inherit the only network that is capable of competing with and defeating the Clinton network, which it has by proxy in the Dean v. Clark competition. If politics is finally a matter of real estate, as Norman Mailer argued in his classic study of the 1968 conventions, then title to the Dean property is without question the single most valuable asset of the 2004 experience. It will be Gore's and Gore's alone on "the day after Dean goes down."

More important, by playing the role of uber-mentor to Dean's 2004 campaign, Gore can begin the process of reinventing himself and his candidacy for the 2008 campaign. He is known now as a semi-centrist, former vice president who lost the race he should have won in 2000 because he forgot about his home state and bored us all to tears. By itself, today's endorsement makes Gore "interesting" again, makes you want to know more about him and what he's thinking. Just as Nixon constructed a "new Nixon" in 1968 to make us forget about the old one, Gore now has the opportunity to reinvent himself for the 2008 campaign.

Ordinarily, we probably wouldn't be interested, but Gore does not come to his reinvention empty-handed. He brings with him the promise of a great political brawl.

And so the battle is joined; Gore vs. Clinton 2008 began on December 9th, 2003. It has been the subtext of the 2004 campaign to date. Now it's out in the open for all to see.



(edited by Grimis on 9.12.03 1432)


The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business.
- Andrew Mellon
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 14 days
Last activity: 20 hours
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
Five bucks on Gore. Any takers?



I wonder how much money George W. Bush gave Paris Hilton.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by MoeGates
    Five bucks on Gore. Any takers?
Against Clinton, or against anybody? I got a fin burning a hole in my pocket.



CRZ
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 148 days
Last activity: 148 days
#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.94
I'm not sure Seba will still be around by the time the bet is up, Zed.

*rimshot*

-Jag



"I'm going to go now and demand beer money from my representative. We simply must deal with the problem of my sobriety." - PalpatineW
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'm not sure Seba will still be around by the time the bet is up, Zed.

    *rimshot*

    -Jag
I don't get it. Are you high?



CRZ
Big G
Potato korv








Since: 21.8.03
From: the people who brought you Steel Magnolias....

Since last post: 16 days
Last activity: 13 hours
#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.08
    Originally posted by CRZ
    Against Clinton, or against anybody? I got a fin burning a hole in my pocket.


I believe this is the base of Jag's Seba joke

EDIT add Colour

(edited by Big G on 9.12.03 1809)


Warrior Quote: "Presuming initial consensualness, where exactly do we draw the lines of our judgment pinning down the responsibility and accountability inextricably attached to each human life? "

Umm Indeed!
Jaguar
Knackwurst








Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 148 days
Last activity: 148 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.94
    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Jaguar
      I'm not sure Seba will still be around by the time the bet is up, Zed.

      *rimshot*

      -Jag
    I don't get it. Are you high?


No, just dumb. Big G has the right idea, though.

-Jag

I think I've filled my quota of stupid for the week.



"I'm going to go now and demand beer money from my representative. We simply must deal with the problem of my sobriety." - PalpatineW
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The MSNBC guys seemed pretty impressed when Brian Williams, as part of his "Truth Squad" segment, dug up a "Meet the Press" clip from September 14, 2003: "...
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