Originally posted by Nate The SnakePrincipal Version 2
You guys ALWAYS forget Flutie! WHATSUPWITDAT?
As for Season 6 and 7, people are far too overcritical of them. Buffy is an allegory for growing up, and high school doesn't last forever.
There's that point where being an adult is new and exciting to you (Season 4), then a bit hectic (Season 5), then you reach a point where the world seems to be out to get you and your friends aren't quite who you remember them to be (Season 6), and then you kind of get a grip on things but you're still figuring it all out like this season.
Aside from the out of character rape attempt and the overtly heavy "magic is drugs" crap last season ruled it hard.
Every Big Bad has reflected their season perfectly to me.
I didn't expect Buffy to go another season for a second, but this news about Eliza in another pilot SUCKS.
However I'd glady take my idea of Johnathon's Angels (Xand Man, Spike, and Andrew) in place of that.
Oh and let me just say again "HA" to SMG if she thinks she's going to be a movie star. Cruel Intentions is the only movie she's ever made that's watchable more than 1 or 2 times.
Excalibur, which aspect of Buffy does the Asian slayer that can't speak English represent? I think you're points there on the SITs are interesting, but I have to think that you are reaching for an explanation there. Its like with the WWE, sure we *can* try to fill in the some of the logic holes in what they do, but we shouldn't *have* to. Those girls are fodder and nothing more. (Save Kennedy given the potential Willow spin-off -- I'm surprised Hannigan isn't looking to further her own movie career. She *is* scheduled to be in American Pie 3...) Still, I like your assessment of this seasons character development. I think the biggest problem with this season isn't crappy development as much as its simply that we don't get to see everyone as much as we'd like. I hope that in the end, it comes down to Xander, Willow, Giles, and Buffy, and together they face the first and defeat it (while everyone else is busy with the Turok-han).
And I do wish they'd at least give some lip service to Giles disappearing for weeks at a time. I'd almost rather him not be around at all than return only to disappear.
I don't see this being the end of Angel though. I'm thinking that Angel has very slowly been building to an entirely different and seperate conclusion on its own. The funny thing is that I remember either Joss or David Greenwalt doing an interview when Angel was debutting saying that they wanted to do a show that wasn't so serial and soap opera-ish like Buffy, where they could just do seperate one episode plots. Oh well.
People forget Flutie cuz he was around for such a little time. Besides, Snyder was just awesome as an evil principal.
Angel was supposed to be monster an episode, but they started running out of ideas. Remember, no Hellmouth as a scapegoat. Even though LA is a hellmout onto itself, the show started to be wind down with that formula. I like the shows epic touch, its darker than Buffy;s and you do get the sense these characters are starting to develop more as the season goes on.
In Angel rumor mill, the EW magazine states that WB has started to watch the show closely and has liked what they have seen. The indications are positive for Angel, so perhaps we will see the return of Angel next year.
I wasn't being critical of this season because I missed the high school days. Hell, I didn't even get INTO the series until The College Years thanks to my wonderful cable provider. I was being critical of it because, in my eyes, there hasn't been anything really quality about it, writing, story, or character-wise.
Last season was quite fun, in a lot of ways, and I really did like Willow's descent into Bad Mojo. My only real disappointment was that they just HAD to throw in the Apocalypse again, like someone didn't think it'd have any impact without it. I think it would've had a lot more if it'd just ended with, say, Xander tracking Willow down while Buffy is off bailing Dawn out of jail or something. They could still have had the climactic scene, just without the rather obviously hastily-assembled end-of-the-world crap.
Kansas-born and deeply ashamed The last living La Parka Marka: HE raised the briefcase!
Originally posted by Excalibur05it's not really a spoiler, because you would have already seen the episode I was talking about (she didn't really turn tweener, she was just being a big bitch, which wasn't really expected
Thanks for the clarification. I thought she was gonna do something this time.
And Nate, you're high if you think you're the last La Parka mark.
Excalibur, I *really* think you're reaching on the Asian slayer representing season 1 Buffy, but at the very least, I admire the attempt.
I think that the only reason they had Evil Willow try to destroy the world was to show just how crazy she had become. Killing Warren is arguably justified, going after the rest of the Trio is pushing the boundaries of what is right/wrong, and while fighting Buffy is obviously a bad decision, trying to end the world is flat out crazy talk. Yes, the apocalypse is over-used in this show, but given that the whole premise of the show is a supernatural good vs. evil fest, it's almost par for the course. Hell, the writers even poked fun at the fact that they overuse the motif at the end of season 5 when Buffy's tombstone read: "She saved the world. A lot."
Originally posted by EddieBurkettHell, the writers even poked fun at the fact that they overuse the motif at the end of season 5 when Buffy's tombstone read: "She saved the world. A lot."
My favourtie moment like that was when someone mentioned that the Beast was trying to cause the apocalypse and Angelus went "Well, there's always one of THOSE right around the corner."
EDIT~! Just saw Storyteller. "In my plan, we are beltless." I hate him for killing my main man, but Andrew still manages to grow on me everytime he opens his mouth. He is like Vegeta...
EDIT~! Version 2.0 Just read SMG's goodbye interview with EW and she mentioned that Xander and Buffy originally WERE supposed to end up together. So if Gade or Skittles reads this I just want them to know I was right and they were wrong.
"I need a rest. Teachers get sabbaticals. Actors don't."
Uhm, don't actors (and teachers) get the time off between seasons??? Isn't that called *summertime*??? Isn't that a rest??? I apologize for continuing my bitterness from earlier in this thread.
"The reviews were scathing, and I took it really hard. [But] Freddie said to me, '''Scooby-Doo' isn't for reviewers. We're not making it for them.'' And when all these children came up to me to say, '''Scooby-Doo' is my favorite movie,'' that was great."
Uhm, who was the movie made for??? I'd have to think that between the bastardization of the original, and some of the more *adult* comments in that movie, that it was not aimed at children. It was aimed at people who had watched the original show when they were 10, and now that they were 15 they were too cool for it. It mocked Scooby Doo. And not that Scooby Doo doesn't deserve to be mocked, but no child should be allowed to hold the opinion that that is their favorite movie. (then again, given how fickle children are, that just means its the movie they watched last, so I should calm down...)
On Joss' long term planning:
"Joss has had certain episodes planned from the get-go. I knew Dawn was coming two years in advance.... Willow was always supposed to go bad. Willow was supposed to go bad a year before she did, but Joss loved Tara and Willow, so that story line was pushed a year.... I honestly believe his original intention was to put Buffy and Xander together. I really do believe that."
I think everyone on this message board can appreciate long term planning *cough WWE pay attention cough*...
There's more, but those are the quotes that got my attention the most. I'll drink some decaf before I read any more interviews she might do... Sorry.
If you want to know Joss' original ending for Season 5 here it is:
Dawn/Glory both debut, but Xander is the avatar instead of Ben. During the course of the season, Glory kills Tara instead of mind-wiping her causing Willow to go dark side. The cast is split apart allowing Xander/Glory to capture Dawn and do the final battle the same as in the show. Willow is the one that cuts Dawn open not Doc. Buffy then kills Willow over it. Giles does kill Xander like he killed Ben and Buffy does the swan dive at the end. The series ends.
This plan was supposed to go on effect if UPN didn't sign them. I have to say that would have been a terrible end to the series which is why I am really enjoying what Joss is doing for the end instead of that crap.
A Fan- Proves long term booking isn't always a good thing.
Long term booking is usually better than short term booking, even if the payoff sucks. Its all about anticipating what is going to happen and being excited about it, which is hard to do when there is no cohesive direction, which is generally lacking with short term booking. That said, what the hell was Joss thinking when he planned that arc out? Killing Willow and Xander to end the show??? I can't say it wouldn't have been good, although I can't see how it would have, at all. I think as much as season 6 might have drawn a few complaints, if that was the alternative, I'm happy with what we got.
At what point did Joss decide to change direction and let everyone live? And what would have happened to Anya in all of that? Crazy.
Where did you hear that Season Five scenario?? That's the most ridiculous plot I've ever heard.
Buffy has been pretty good this year, but Angel has been just off the charts over the past couple of months. Plot twists galore, great acting and ANGELUS~~!
Well Mr. Burns had done it. The power plant had won it. With Rogers Clemens clucking all the while. Mike Scioscia's tragic illness made us smile. While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on the barroom tile. We're talkin'... Softball. From Maine to San Diego. Talkin'... Softball. Mattingly and Canseco. Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw. Steve Sax and his run-in with the law. We're talkin' Homer... Ozzie and the Straw.
I believe it was in the Buffy Magazine a few issues ago. It does sound like terrible fan fiction, but Joss has done weirder things like Spike/Buffy. I don't know what happened to Anya and Spike though. I would think that Xander would kill Anya thus making Giles' mercy kill of him easier for the fans. As for Spike whereabouts I would assume him and Giles take care of Dawn or leave her with Buffy's Dad. It would make an interesting sitcome of Dawn. Buffy and Gile leaving under one roof. Think of the hilarity.
Of course, this was the plan IF WB cancelled them after five seasons. I just don't understand why WB let them go in the first place that show and Dawson made the network. Oh well. Since UPN got them, Joss decided to let everyone live, so UPN can have a full stable minus Buffy expect they brought her back of course.
A Fan- I love Akira. The ending is supposed to be open ended its a Japanesse thing. I hated Monoke though that ending was just bland.
I kind of liked the writer's original plans for last season (if what I've read is true). It's something of a variation on the actual theme:
Tara dies as was scripted, but a bit earlier in the season, and Willow goes nuts. But while she does go off the deep end, she ends up draining herself of power in her anger. Enter newly re-demonized Anya, whose heel turn isn't quite complete, but who sympathizes with Willow and through a wish brings her back up to full strength.
So the Scoobs fight on against evil Willow and her unwitting accomplice Demon Anya, but things don't look good. Spike, frustrated by all this goes off to Africa as scheduled, but instead of getting the soul, he takes out the chip (thinking erroniously that because he loves Buffy, he'll be able to conrol himself once the chip is out). Which is true, until, when he gets back he finds that Buffy is too distracted fighting off Willow and Anya to love him back. Frustrated, he returns to his crypt, to find Dawn and Clem watching TV. Figuring that if he himself can't get Buffy's attention, he'd get her attention by doing something really stupid. Namely turning Dawn.
Meanwhile, all hell has broken loose as Willow has completely lost control of her powers and is basically trashing the entirety of Sunnydale (somewhere around 1/3 of the city is a pile of rubble). Giles shows up to try to put a stop to it, but Buffy decides to volunteer her services to stop Willow, provided Giles does the one thing she can't: Kill Dawn. So, Giles goes off and does his duty.
A distraught Buffy, meanwhile, hunts down and kills Spike and then runs off to fight Willow. They battle, not unlike how they did on the show, only it ends with Willow KOing Buffy and preparing to take out the rest of Sunnydale. Willow is about to do just that, when Buffy pulls herself together and launches one last assult, killing Willow, but at the price of her own life.
The end of the season finds Anya wandering through the rubble of the city, both impressed and depressed at what she'd done, when she comes across a bloody and dying Xander who'd been caught in the crossfire of the afformentioned Willow/Buffy battle. Anya starts to blame Xander for making all this happen (because she wouldn't have become a demon if he hadn't left her at the alter), but Xander stops her and says that despite all she's done and how many of his friends, family, people he didn't know she'd caused to die, he still loved her, and he forgives her. Then he dies, and a distraught Anya not really knowing what to do smashes her power center and effectively hits the reset button, but at what likely would have been the cost of her own life (thus ending Emma Caulfield's run on the show).
I know it's weird and cliche, but I kind of liked that ending more. Xander declaring his love for Anya means more now than it did for Willow, I think and there were alot of neat substories with Amy and Jonathan and Andrew too. From what I've heard though, either Joss or Marti Noxon (the Stephanie McMahon of the Buffyverse) lifted the part about Xander saving the world and just dumped the rest, for the most part because they didn't want to spend a whole season leading up to just restarting the season.
As for Akira, I liked MOST of it, and the ending wasn't what bothered me, it was the rest of the movie. It just seemed to move WAY too quickly, and other than a bit of exposition and monologuing at the end, they didn't really flesh out the story or characters as much as they could. They just zip zip ziped through most of the movie, spent about 10 minutes at the end explaining a bunch of what they zipped through and then it was over.
Satire 03/03/03 (wienerboard.com) <- No kidding, right? Buffy 7.16 gets a 7.65372 Andrew is funny, but I'm not sure that we needed "The Andrew Episode".
Originally posted by Excalibur05As for Akira, I liked MOST of it, and the ending wasn't what bothered me, it was the rest of the movie. It just seemed to move WAY too quickly, and other than a bit of exposition and monologuing at the end, they didn't really flesh out the story or characters as much as they could. They just zip zip ziped through most of the movie, spent about 10 minutes at the end explaining a bunch of what they zipped through and then it was over.
Well that's what happens when you cram hundreds of pages into two hours or less. Personally, I like Akira and its ending, but that's not Buffy. I mean if you take the end of growing up too literally it is "everyone dies" but I don't think killing off everyone would've been the way to go.
Now to be hypocritical, here's my death pool. Most likely to die listed at top.
1.Anya 2.Every Slayerette but Kennedy 3.Spike 4.Wood 5.Andrew 6.Dawn 7.Faith/Buffy-tie
Anya's toast. No one disagrees there right? Is she does live she's off to another dimension... (though for some shows that IS dying)
Kennedy is Willow's squeeze, if someone else is called it'll likely be Kennedy. Because Joss wants Willow around.
Spike's last stop in redemption is deathville.
Wood, Buffy, or Faith will do Spike in... if Wodd doesn't get Spike, Spike'll get him. Or the good guys get Wood after he turns and nails someone on this list.
I really hope Andrew makes it to the spin off. But probably not.
Buffy/Faith/Dawn. Dawn most likely because, as I've said before, all 3 have Slayer blood. That's 2 too many. Buffy's not supposed to be alive. Killing her would set things right maybe, but it'd be too depressing. I'm tempted to put Faith on top because a new slayer will PROBABLY be called, but Eliza is the hottest ever so I don't want her to die. That and maybe the spinoff will be about the norms (Xander/Andrew/Dawn) taking on darkness with help from Willow.
And may I say, I wish Seth and Joss could work something out before the finale. Same with Amber, but less because she's not Oz.
I won't be party to conjecture on who might die, although I'd have to think that anyone brought in specifically this season (especially Wood) have to be prime candidates. And as widely known as it is that Emma Caulfield doesn't want to return next season, does that really mean anything if there is no next season? I'm thinking that given all the rumours that she's gone, we might get a swerve and she'll live, but she's probably gone, yeah... I'd think Kennedy was dead if not for the Willow series. As far as Buffy goes, I'd be inclined to think that she'll die, but if SMG is talking about making appearances on future spin-offs, then who knows? And regarding Spike, I'd like to see him live, but the concept of Spike dying for his redemption does sound reasonable. Especially given all the Christ-like symbolism with him earlier this season. Still, wasn't he strongly rumored for continuing in a spin-off? And I know that James Marsters has said that he'd like to continue playing Spike.
One question: someone mentioned the prophesies that have been alluded to throughout the show's history as having to come into play here, since this is the end. Especially with regards to Angel's prophesies, how specific were those? Because I seem to recall most of them describing Angel as "the vampire with a soul", and now that Spike has a soul (with Angelus around, Spike's the ONLY vampire with a soul), but how can we be sure what was supposed to happen to Angel won't wind up happening to Spike? I know the stuff about the father killing the son is specific, and I think Angel's been told to his face by TPTB the he'll get his soul (or was it his humanity?) back when its all said and done, but was there anything else that wasn't so specific?
And I have to say that I'm glad they didn't go with the original plan for season 6, if only because the only thing dumber than killing Xander and Willow in season 5 to end the show, would be killing everyone in season 6 only to push the big reset button. If we complain in wrestling, where continuity isn't as highly revered by the writers, imagine how we'd all feel if they erased an entire season on us. (For example, last night in the replay of selfless, I just noticed the reference to the end of season 2, where Xander deliberately mis-delivered Willow's message to Buffy, and now five seasons later, Willow *just* finds out. This show builds and self-refers too much to erase 1/7th of its history like that.)
Hell, I was slighlty miffed at the end of the Angel episode a few weeks ago that turned out to be a dream. Of course, I was also miffed at the not getting the promised Angelus for more than a wicked grin. Ah, tonight better be good...
Did *not* see that coming at all. Nina in a ponytail is very good. How does Chase's torture stack up to Jack's from last season? I can't remember if I cringed as much during Jack's. Palmer looks like he's slowly crossing his way to the dark side....