That's the problem, just because fan A throws a cup doesn't mean fan B, C, or D deserves to get an ass kicking just because he or she happens to be part of the same large crowd. In my opinion, Artest couldn't have known for sure who hit him in the head, he wasn't really paying that much attention as he was lying there on the table. I think he just went in the general direction of where the cup was thrown and picked somebody. Certainly, even if he did pick the right person, his actions escalated the situation where innocent people were put into harm's way. But so did the actions of WAY too many of the fans.
I am not sure why it has to the players' fault or the fan's fault, or why anyone has to take one side or the other. From the way I saw it, there was no shortage of people to blame, players and fans alike. Also, from my perspective, I didn't see a single act of self-defense from anyone. In my mind, self-defense is NOT the same as retaliation, and retaliation is what I was seeing.
BTW, I have no way of knowing, but my hunch is that MJ doesn't go into the stands in the same situation, making that point mute. And if he did, it would have hurt his reputation. But that's the problem with "what ifs", nobody really knows how reactions would be different (or the same), so it's really hard to make a justifiable point off those kind of speculative scenerios.
(edited by ges7184 on 20.11.04 1119) The Bored are already here. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. And no... we won't kill dolphins. But koalas are fair game.
Originally posted by BigDaddyLocoIf Artest no sold the cup, it very likely would have ended there. After that you really can't put all the blame on the fans or all the players.
I 100% agree with this. This is why fans who step on the court are punished severely and players who jump into the stands (NO FREAKIN MATTER WHAT) should be equally punished.
Every fan who threw anything will hopefully be caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That said, if I'm the innocent guy who Artest and Jackson pummeled in the stands, I'm getting ready to sue Artest, Jackson, the NBA - hell, even the Shootaround crew just for being sanctimonius a**holes. No excuse at all for that...
Also, I don't know if this was made clear before, but I gleaned this bit of info from an article on foxsports.com:
Artest flew into the stands, predictably attacking the wrong fan. The poor guy looked fairly confused as Artest took him down to the ground. To his credit — I guess — the guy who actually threw the projectile went in and grabbed Artest, pulling him off the innocent bystander as all hell broke loose. The would-be peacekeeper, whom we would later realize was the true instigator, then tipped his hand by firing a couple of punches into Artest's temple from behind.
First off, any player, ANY PLAYER AT ALL, who injurs, or attempts to injur a spectator should be susupended for the season. Regardless of the fact that a plastic cup of beer hit him, Ron Artest wasnt "defending himself". How many people have been seriously injurred by a flying plastic cup? In Minor Leage Hockey, if you injur a fan you get a lifetime ban. I dont think LIFETIME is appropriate in the NBA, but, the rest of the season isnt unreasonable.
As a former bouncer, I got hit with glass bottles FULL of beer. Does that give me a free pass to attack everybody in the crowd? Nope, and none of these players should be any different.
The only instance I saw that was legit self defense was when that fat douchebag was on the court and looked like he wanted to square off with Artest. THEN its self defense, because the guy was on the offensive. The guy Artest took down was basically standing around, cheering and pointing at him.
On the same note though, any fan shown on tape throwing garbage, the chair, a beer or a punch should be arrested and charged with assault. Hell, they arrested guys in New York for throwing snowballs at a Jets game.
The team should VOLUNTARILY not allow fans in any time the Pacers visit this season, both as "punishment" to the douchebags who got overinvolved in this, and as a security measure.
Wasn;t it a few months ago people were talking about how crazy Milton Bradly was for throwing a plastic bottle into an empty seat during a tantrum and how wrong that was, yet somehow people seem willing to give Artest the benefit of the doubt, when he was actually assaulting fans. Makes no sense to me.
I was disgusted by Stephen J. Smith on ESPN putting the ENTIRE blame on the fans for this. The fans are certainly to blame for throwing stuff, but not for escalating into a street fight. Anybody trying to clear the players of fault like the ESPN crowd is wasting breathable air...
Nothing like having sympathy for millionaire players assaulting fans like this.
Artest should be suspended FOR LIFE. That's right. FOR LIFE. This is completely unnaceptable behavior and, frankly, making an example out of Artest will:
1. Try to have the league save face; 2. Try to ensure nobody else does this; 3. No bring too much of an uproar because it's Artest.
"This Library is like my husband; it's open, it's expansive." - Hillary Clinton
O'Neal's suspension is bull. The guy who got clocked not only wandered onto the court with his dumbass friend (the one who got socked in the face by Artest) but he physically got involved with Artest as well. WHAT ARE YOU TWO DOING ON THE COURT? I hope the player's union gets involved on Jermaine's behalf, because while there is a case to be made for the other three getting suspensions, Jermaine did the right thing from my seat.
I posted about this elsewhere and decided to share:
When it comes down to it, the fans were NOT at fault. Period. I've seen the clip a few times and I point the finger at this breaking out on Ron Artest, no question. Perhaps I'm immune to the drink-throwing of late-90's WCW, but one drink is not self-defense. One drink means Artest should throw a hissy fit on the court to get the fan ejected. That's happened before. But the ESPN guys were saying stuff like "Artest did the same thing anybody in his position would do." Not quite, players representing the NBA to for a basketball game are supposed to take the high road here.
If a fight breaks out between players, fine, you can suspend them for a few games. But putting the safety of fans on the line is way crossing the line. If I were in charge, I would suspend Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson for a year at least, no pay. This isn't fucking South Central LA. Too bad David Stern is a pussy.
I don't mean to take the Detroit fans off the hook, they went too far. But my only point is if Artest hadn't gone insane after the first cup, none of this would have happened. After a bunch of fans got their ass kicked by various Pacers, I really don't know what else they would expect when they'd walk that aisle. ESPN's spin blaming this on the Detroit fans and lack of security is really trying to lessen the blow on the few players most involved.
too many to quote, but he general vibe seems to think the players should be crucified over all of this...
Maybe I was wrong to analogize MJ - but damn...Bird of all people freaked out viciously on Lamebeer (as did RP)...the game survived, cause most people wrote it off to someone getting what they deserved. Was it the wrong fan? doesn't matter...the dude throwing "beer" was a Detroit fan and he was cussing the players - as much as Artest is hated - as far as "nonsense" goes, the fans there didn't appear to give two shits if it was Croshere or Jackson or oops...
NBA indefinitely suspends Artest, O'Neal, Jackson, Wallace
The suspensions were indefinite, and the league was still investigating Friday night's melee involving fans, which commissioner David Stern called ``shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA.''
The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures ``so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.''
Yeah! Make an example! Cause the fans need "notguityinism" on their resume...son of a bitch - I just watched 3 hours of ECW and was there for many of that - no one got invoved...not like this anyway. Probably cause wrestling is fake. Unreal. FINE HIM! SUSPEND HIM! MAKE AN EXAMPLE! Why not? They can't all be nice guys like Grant Hill
(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 20.11.04 1522) Demonstrations are a drag. Besides, we're much too high
NEW YORK, November 20 – NBA Commissioner David Stern issued the following statement today:
“The events at last night’s game were shocking, repulsive and inexcusable --- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA. This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games. Our investigation is ongoing and I expect it to be completed by tomorrow evening.
The NBA has taken the following actions, effective immediately:
1. Indiana players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O’Neal are suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.
2. Detroit player Ben Wallace is suspended indefinitely, the length to be determined upon completion of the investigation.
3. Review of rules and procedures relating to altercations and security have been undertaken so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.”
Originally posted by StaggerLeeAs a former bouncer, I got hit with glass bottles FULL of beer. Does that give me a free pass to attack everybody in the crowd? Nope, and none of these players should be any different.
Actually, yes it does. The sole role of a bouncer is to keep order in the establishment where you work. If you get hit in the head with a bottle of beer, it is absolutely within your rights to go into the crowd, find that motherfucker and kick him out. If he lays a hand on you, you are also within your rights to defend yourself. But the analogy is lost on me for two reasons. One, because basketball players aren't bouncers. And two, Artest didn't "attack everybody in the crowd". He went after the wrong guy initially, got restrained, got more shit thrown on him then got taken back to the court.
Originally posted by StaggerLeeWasn;t it a few months ago people were talking about how crazy Milton Bradly was for throwing a plastic bottle into an empty seat during a tantrum and how wrong that was, yet somehow people seem willing to give Artest the benefit of the doubt, when he was actually assaulting fans. Makes no sense to me.
Once again, this analogy doesn't make sense. Bradley threw the water bottle into the crowd relatively unprovoked. Artest was hit with a cup of beer which, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, falls into the category of assault. And two things. It's "injure" and "injured". And two, it was a Giants game not a Jets game. The first instance happened the same year as the Vernon Maxwell attack. The game was against the Chargers.
"What you don't understand, you can make mean anything." -Palahniuk
The bottom line here is, Artest hit a fan who didn't do anything at all, and for that he's got to be suspended indefinately. There's no way that the Association can let that go. As for the people on the floor, well, my advice to them is don't go onto the arena floor if you wanna avoid that kind of physical contact.
It makes zero sense to suspend Ben Wallace indefinitely. Wallace had nothing to do with the incident. Wallace maybe, MAYBE would have warrented a 1-game suspension and a $5,000 fine over his actions alone if the crowd incident hadn't happened. Since everything escalated I can somewhat see the NBA upping it, even though it's not fair. But what he did isn't remotely within the same league as what the folks involved in player/fan altercations did, and it's completely wrong to put it there. Still, the real lengths have yet to be announced, so I'm hoping the NBA comes to its senses soon.
From a legal standpoint I don't know who's at fault or should be punished. From a marketing standpoint, however, the league has got to come down harder on the players than the fans. If I'm at a Mickey D's, get pissed, and throw a cup of soda at the cashier, and the cashier then jumps the counter and starts wailing away at random folks in line, what do you think is going to happen to the cashier?
Man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe. - Euripides
Once a player jumps into the stands he should be ready for a near riot situation.
Once a fan jumps onto the court or field he should be prepared to get clocked.
As far as the reaction to the cup it's probably best to do the 'un-tough guy' guy thing and just let the authorities handle it. The guy will regret the boring court dates more than the story he gets to tell about brawling with NBA stars.
On that page there's a sidebar containing a phone interview that (who else?) Jim Gray had with Ron Artest. Artest claims that he was hit by a glass container. Well, I suppose if that's true that's more inflammatory than being hit by a plastic cup. Then again, who's to say he's telling the truth?
As for the NBA's reaction, it seems a bit harsh to me, but I'm on the side that thinks the fans are more to blame than the players. I also really don't understand why Wallace has been suspended indefinitely too. Maybe it's just precautionary while they investigate and he'll end up with like a one- or two-game suspension.
Originally posted by BigDaddyLocoOnce a player jumps into the stands he should be ready for a near riot situation.
Once a fan jumps onto the court or field he should be prepared to get clocked.
I cite the cases of The Streaker At The Saddledome who knocked himself out and had to get stretchered off the ice, and Sasha Lakovic vs. The Oiler Fans. A fan dumped a drink on then-Flames assistant coach Guy Lapointe, and Sasha went into the stands after the guy.
Originally posted by KidbrooklynActually, yes it does. The sole role of a bouncer is to keep order in the establishment where you work. If you get hit in the head with a bottle of beer, it is absolutely within your rights to go into the crowd, find that motherfucker and kick him out. If he lays a hand on you, you are also within your rights to defend yourself. But the analogy is lost on me for two reasons. One, because basketball players aren't bouncers. And two, Artest didn't "attack everybody in the crowd". He went after the wrong guy initially, got restrained, got more shit thrown on him then got taken back to the court.
My point was, he got hit with a frieking plastic cup. A plastic cup. Then he charges into the stands and pounces on a guy who who did nothing, and wasnt even taking an offensive stance against him.
Bradley threw the water bottle into the crowd relatively unprovoked. Artest was hit with a cup of beer which, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, falls into the category of assault. And two things. It's "injure" and "injured". And two, it was a Giants game not a Jets game. The first instance happened the same year as the Vernon Maxwell attack. The game was against the Chargers.
Bradly threw a bottle at an empty chair. People were acting like he shot somebody. Artest was hit with a cup of beer. And, if you are going to classify that as assault, then WTF would you can him jumping on a guy a foot shorter than him? Dancing? Please excuse my poor spelling, I am originally from Mississippi after all.
Originally posted by RYDER FAKINtoo many to quote, but he general vibe seems to think the players should be crucified over all of this...
Maybe I was wrong to analogize MJ - but damn...Bird of all people freaked out viciously on Lamebeer (as did RP)...the game survived, cause most people wrote it off to someone getting what they deserved.
Actually, the better Bird fight was in the pre-season a few years earlier, where he was torching Dr. J and Dr. J threw a few sucker punches while Moses was holding Bird. Auerbach coming down from the stands to go after Billy Cunningham and I think Daryl Dawkins was another better fight. Jordan would have just sent a bodyguard to dispose of the person rather than dirtying his hands. On Bill Walton's "this is the biggest disgrace I've seen in my 30 plus years of basketball" comment: Bill, you played for the Clippers. That is more disgraceful than anything else. Or, Opening Night of the '85-'86 season when Big Bill played a horrendous game in a Halloween Night overtime loss to the Nets. Stern see's the national media picking up on this, so he's going to run for the hill and make himself look good.
The Ottoman Empire is coming. The Ottoman Empire is coming. Hide the couches.
The Clippers? Serious about making the playoffs? That's a joke or twelve waiting to happen. Actually, I like the Clippers a lot, it's just that they have a sucky owner who isn't willing to lay down the cash to have a contending team.