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The W - Basketball - It's breakin' loose in Tulsa!!....I mean, Detroit! (Page 2)
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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.02
    Originally posted by KaneRobot
    I'll let you guys spin this any way you want,
Posting six times in this thread gives the appearance that that's exactly what you AREN'T doing, so why don't you lay out for the rest of the thread and maybe if anyone else believes it's Artest's fault they'll get a chance to speak.
    Originally posted by sweetroll
    The most disturbing thing is that it looks like Artest went after the wrong guy. Artest was laying down on the scorers' table for some reason when a 1/4-full cup of beer landed on his chest. I really doubt he could see who chucked it at him.
Yeah, Jim "ALLRIGHT" Gray fingered a different fan during the ESPNEWS coverage, but he must not have been totally sure since there was no mention of it during SportsCenter. I agree with the idea that that wasn't the right guy Artest went after, though...looked like he was holding a Coke.

    I can't believe the ESPN crew is blaming the fans for this.
I believe most of the guys on the Shootaround team are better able to put themselves in Artest's shoes than I am, given their experience, so I'm willing to defer to their experience...especially since I happen to agree with them anyway.
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    Honestly, I see him with a 100 GAME suspension. Probably getting it reduced to 50-60 games on appeal.
No way. Even Spree only got 68 for choking his coach. (Thanks, ESPN!)



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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by CRZ
    No way. Even Spree only got 68 for choking his coach. (Thanks, ESPN!)


Damn, I thought he got more than that.

Considering all the potential lawsuits involved, do you think the league will try to make an example out of him and give him 68+

I don't feel too bad for that fan on the floor. In a crowd, safe. On your own, owned by two punches. I still expect a suit from him.

Shit, I expect a suit from that mom from the sportscenter footage. She was comforting her crying child. "Emotional distress, your honor."





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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.02
I stand in awe of David Stern.

The Heat/Lakers thing gets it's hype, so he figures he's got to put some juice behind Pistons/Pacers.

SUPER GENIUS.

(Yes, that was sarcasm. The fans got what they deserved.)



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Since: 10.4.02
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.31
(deleted by NickBockwinkelFan on 20.11.04 0339)
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
Since I'm apparently ruining the thread by posting more than twice on the subject, for now I'll just post this as requested.



(edited by KaneRobot on 20.11.04 0611)
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.80
The foul was not flagrant, just about all the ESPN people agreed on that. It was a little rough, and I won't argue that even as a Pacer fan. And who can blame Wallace for shoving him? Not me. Who can blame the players for tempers rising? Not me. Who can blame the moron fans for throwing shit at the players? Anyone.

Up until the stupid fans got involved, this was no more than a rather routine flare-up during a sports game. But if you provoke someone by throwing something at them, particularly in the middle of something that's already needing to be calmed down, you might could expect them to retaliate.

Obviously you gotta suspend people, and I totally agree with ekedolphin's fantasy basketball decisions on suspensions. Jermaine O'Neal doesn't deserve anything, that fan ran onto his court, and as said earlier, no one would feel bad for a fan that ran onto a football field and got tackled. I disagree with not serving alcohol though. These things are such isolated incidents that not everyone who wants to have a drink at the game should be punished and forced to sit through Bulls games without getting drunk.

Outside of all the punching, my favorite part may have been Jamaal Tinsley threatening people with a dust pan toward the end.

Big up to Rasheed Wallace the mediator, and Reggie Miller and Scot Pollard in their suits that got doused in drinks.



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Since: 20.2.02
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.28

Interesting piece
from Dan Wetzel.

Throwing beer IS assault (from a legal standpoint), but I agree with his point about bouncers and cops having to show restraint no matter what. As a public person, you need to make sure your safety is protected, and show restraint beyond that. As said, throwing beer is assault, should be punished as assault, but if Artest had just moved away, his personal safety would have been just fine.





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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.33
    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    I strongly disagree with whomever said that everyone who went into the stands should be suspended. Eddie Gill was clearly playing peacemaker, trying to get Ron to settle down. Fred Jones wasn't doing anything until he got clocked from behind by a fan who must easily weigh 300 pounds-- and I didn't see Freddy retaliate, either. I'd let Gill and Jones off scot-free.


The thing that comes to mind when I read this is the Knicks-Heat blowouts from the 90's that led to the rule of instant suspensions if you leave the bench in a brawl. In the league's effort to curtail on-the-court brawling, they now have instant suspensions if you even leave the bench to join in the fracas. Do you think that they would institue the same sort of thing to deal with fans, to keep the situation from escalating?

I'm kinda torn here - the guy who threw the initial cup was an ass and very, very wrong. However, I can't help but think if Artest just got security and had the guy's ass thrown out that that would have been that - the guy threw a cup, not a knife. Get the game over, get out of town, let the lawsuits fly. However, he went in the stands, others followed, and anarchy ensued.

I wholeheartedly agree with the props for 'Sheed and others in playing peacemaker. Can't believe the footage they showed on ESPN of the cop almost spraying *Artest*. That surely would have set off more reactions. Also was interesting to see Croshere standing in the middle of the floor 'cause he felt too threatened to go thru the tunnel.

(Since nobody got killed, I also say this as a Cavs fan - Hooray! With the suspensions for both teams sure to come down, this should surely pave the way for the Cavs! Also, as a Browns fan I am *very* surprised to not be seeing footage from the Jacksonville game a few years ago where the "fans" unloaded on the officials over an overturned call at the end of the game. That was disgraceful.)

(edited by whatever on 20.11.04 0739)


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Since: 23.1.02
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.93
Who threw the first punch? Artest. Artest is at fault. If an opposing player comes charging into the stands, pushing and shoving and just starts wailing on the guy sitting next to me, hell yeah I'm going to try and KO him. Then Stephen Jackson comes in and starts wailing away on other fans. Artest should've walked away. Jackson should've never helped him. If Artest got beaten to a bloody pulp that's what you get for being STUPID. The guy who through the cup should be arrested. Artest and Jackson should be suspended. There was no actual violence until Artest hauled off into the stands.

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.00
If Artest no sold the cup, it very likely would have ended there. After that you really can't put all the blame on the fans or all the players.

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.08
If an opposing player comes charging into the stands, pushing and shoving and just starts wailing on the guy sitting next to me, hell yeah I'm going to try and KO him...Then Stephen Jackson comes in and starts wailing away on other fans. Jackson should've never helped him.

So if your friend is attacked by somebody, you have carte blanche to punch Artest from behind. Just not if you are Stephen Jackson.
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.93
    Originally posted by Super Shane Spear
    If an opposing player comes charging into the stands, pushing and shoving and just starts wailing on the guy sitting next to me, hell yeah I'm going to try and KO him...Then Stephen Jackson comes in and starts wailing away on other fans. Jackson should've never helped him.

    So if your friend is attacked by somebody, you have carte blanche to punch Artest from behind. Just not if you are Stephen Jackson.


    Originally posted by Jaguar
    If Artest got beaten to a bloody pulp that's what you get for being STUPID


I'm sorry, I don't go to NBA games to get beaten up. Artest is in the wrong, and he gets what's coming to him. If I was Jackson, I would've gone after Artest as well, but I'd probably be pulling him back instead of punching fans. Either way, Artest is at fault for charging into the stands, and Jackson is at fault for following him.

In the terms of Basketball Artest is COMEPLETELY in the wrong. If we want to talk in terms outside of Basketball, well then they take it to court and most likely Artest was beating on the wrong fan and he's still in the wrong. With the exception of the cup thrower and the chair thrower, everybody else can plead self-defense.

-Jag

Added: ESPN just said something along the lines of "There was no place to hide from the fans in Auburn Hills." And I would charge that it's just the opposite. What are the fans supposed to do when the players start threatening them?

(edited by Jaguar on 20.11.04 0838)


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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.70
Good brawl, but it still doesn't top Bruins vs. MSG Crowd from '79. Until you remove someone's shoe and beat them with it, you don't top that incident.
Anyone else think ABC's marketing staff is really excited that X-Mas now has Brawl II and Kobe loves Shaq as the doubleheader? And, at least Jim Gray won't be at Brawl II, as he'll be to busy trying to give Kobe a special X-Mas present.
Artest is going to get minimum 10 for going into the stands. And, if he doesn't, he'll appeal to get the supsension lengthened so he can finally get his month off. I'm actually shocked he didn't pull a copy of his CD out of his jersey and try to use it to bludgeon the fan while using it as a marketing opportunity. Might have moved into the Milbury category.
Personally, I have no problem with the fan going on the court getting knocked out twice. However, O'Neill might face legal problems, as when he flew in for the punch, the guy was getting up wobbled after getting knocked out by Artest.
Chair getting thrown around a basketball court? Nice to see Jayson Williams is able to attend basketball games after getting off on that pesky little murder charge. He must be disappointed though that Artest is trying to take away his title as Biggest Hothead to come out of St. John's.



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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.66
Vernon Maxwell was put out 10 games for going into the stands to punch a fan who HECKLED HIM, so based on that, I'd say Artest should get 7 games. (And no I'm NOT BIASED because he's on my fantasy team...nope, not at all.)

How do you punish the other culprits in this, the Detroit fans? Surely THEY deserve some punishment, right? I say they take a page from UEFA's handbook after a referee got hit by a battery during a Champions' League match in September at Roma. (excerpted from here)

Uefa, European football's governing body, banned supporters from attending the Group B match after referee Anders Frisk was hit by a missile thrown from the crowd at Roma's home match against Dynamo Kiev in September.

Around 2000 people were allowed to attend, including journalists, technicians, photographers and police officers, and a surreal, almost eerie atmosphere pervaded the stadium.


A couple of Pistons games in an empty stadium would be a pretty powerful thing to remember.

NOTE: OBVIOUSLY, I'm not saying ALL Detroit fans are to blame for last night's fracas, BUT neither were all Roma fans responsible for the knucklehead who threw the battery at the referee, either.



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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.80
    Originally posted by Jaguar
    I'm sorry, I don't go to NBA games to get beaten up.


I assume this means you don't hurl your drink at the players. I also assume that if you did, you might be prepared for them to want to retaliate.


    ESPN just said something along the lines of "There was no place to hide from the fans in Auburn Hills." And I would charge that it's just the opposite. What are the fans supposed to do when the players start threatening them?


What is Artest supposed to do when people throw crap at him? Be a statue about it? Why? Because he's a basketball player? If they're entitled to defend themselves once he charges up there - and they are, obviously - then he was entitled to go up there and retaliate to what the original offense was, which was someone throwing drinks at him. It was not his stupid foul on Ben Wallace that started anything other than a brief spat with the players, which had absolutely nothing to do with the crowd. The crowd was not a factor until a few of them made themselves a factor.

No one's saying the players aren't at some fault and don't deserve some punishment, but it's not like Artest just went nutty and ran into the stands to attack a quiet gentleman trying to enjoy the contest, either.



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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.28
My take:

Stupid fans. Anyone who threw material at Pacers players should be arrested for battery and/or assault.

Stupid players. Artest and Jackson could be arrested for the same. Regarding the cup of "liquid," I'll take the Piscean view on it and say he should have no-sold it, but I can understand him getting pissed. When RAW was in town about five years ago, Trips got hit in the face with a thrown beer. His reaction? Normal -- angry, ready to beat the fan down. You just *wish* that people wouldn't do that, players and fans alike.

Methinks (and this is only my guess) that Ron Artest will have the rest of the year off to record that rap album of his. Who would have thunk that Spree and Rasheed have been lapped by Ron?
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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.89
I'ts kind of funny to me, in a sad way, that this happened during a Pacers game, and at first, Artest was not the guy in the middle of the brawl. Kind of ironic.

Artest, yeah he was provoked, and if he saw who hit him with the beer, then maybe I can see him going after the guy. But you CANNOT just go into the stands and start nailing fans. That is the the golden rule in sports, really. You can do just about anything else that doesn't lead to you being incarcerated, and just get off with a small suspension at the most. But the league can't have its players going into the stands unless there's a damned good reason. And I don't think that some anonymous fan throwing a cup at Artest was that kind of reason. Looks like Artest will get that rest to recover from promoting his rap album.

The rest of the guys who went into the stands were mostly peacemakers, except for Stephen Jackson, who seemed to be an instigator every step of the way. He needs to be suspended, as does Wallace. Wallace didn't really do much, but if he didn't feel the need to chop Artest, this whole thing never would have happened. The rest of the players, from what I saw, should probably get no suspension or a slap on the wrist.

As for the fans, if they did anything that wasn't self-defense, their punishment ought to start out with an assault charge and a lifetime ban from the Palace and all other NBA arenas. The guy that was on the court; he got what he deserved. Quite a disgraceful scene that won't help the NBA shed its image as a league full of thugs. Of course, now it looks like a lot of the fans, at least in Detroit, are right on that same level.

(edited by BigSteve on 20.11.04 1059)
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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.45
I think if anything happens to the players, other than the obligatory "one or two game" suspension for B. Wallace being a baby for no good reason, it's a shame. This whole thing escalated BECAUSE of the fans, not because of said one or two players known for being pricks took matters into their own hands

Nevermind the rule "don't go into the stands" - that's only to head the lawsuits off at the pass. As far as the fans are concerned, "heckling" is part of the game / fan participation, but the "unwritten rule" is 1) no racial / mama slurs and 2) don't throw shit. Seeing as "unwritten rules" are for chumps anyways, common sense should dictate that you call someone / someone's mama (specifically basketball players / their mama) "this or that" and THEN throw something at them, much less charge the court, you get what you deserve. Did Artest go overboard? That's debatable...he was minding his own business while B. Wallace freaked out for reasons I still don't understand....but - let's just say it was MJ minding his own business, getting cussed and then hit with a full cup of who knows what.

So, what if MJ charged the fan in question? - would it be this much of a "throw the bum to the wolves" situation? Nope. Artest ain't exactly sane, but I don't fault him a little for doing what he did. Things were relatively under control until the fans decided to become the show, then...well, RIOT! The catfish that decided to make an appearance on the court got what was coming to him (TKO). The cop that pulled his pepper spray on Artest almost got famous...and every Ambulance chasing lawyer in Detroit is hunting down the moron fans that hope they won't have to work anymore and every basketball player, involved or not involved is sweating because they are probably NEXT.

The cops have already sided with the players re: self defense and hopefully Stern does the same. As mentioned, Artest rarely is playing with a full deck, but he shouldn't be punished due to morons injecting themselves into the game. The game tape is already being analyzed ala the Zapruder film and I think everyone BUT Wallace will (or should) be absolved. Which is strange, he normally behaves himself

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#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Point of order:

Was the man that Artest beat up the same man who threw the beer cup? I couldn't tell from the replays. Everyone assumes that kid got what he deserves, but I don't think he threw a thing.




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#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    Point of order:

    Was the man that Artest beat up the same man who threw the beer cup? I couldn't tell from the replays. Everyone assumes that kid got what he deserves, but I don't think he threw a thing.

Here's something I saw in an article this morning, I quoted the noteworthy part in relation to your question below:
Updated story

    Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands and jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

    ``He was on top of me, pummeling me,'' fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. ``He asked me, `Did you do it?' I said, `No, man. No!'''

I don't know if that's the first guy he went after or whatever, but it still pretty much says all it needs to about what Artest did.

    Originally posted by ScottChrist
    but it's not like Artest just went nutty and ran into the stands to attack a quiet gentleman trying to enjoy the contest, either.

Judging by the article above, he may have done just that.

What's he supposed to do when someone throws something at him? The same thing he did when Ben Wallace threw his armband at him just a few seconds before - stand, look pissed off, huff and puff, and wait for it to get sorted out. Looking at the tape again, Artest seems like a coward and a bully to me...he didn't put anywhere NEAR the effort into getting to Wallace when he threw his armband at him that he did going after some guy half his size who is quite possibly innocent of any wrongdoing.

    Originally posted by JayJayDean
    How do you punish the other culprits in this, the Detroit fans?


There's not a lot you can do. Suspend Ben Wallace for a few games, arrest the person who threw the cup if they know who he is, and arrest those two guys who walked down on the floor. The "empty stadium" thing wouldn't do anything, there are so many games in the season having two games with no one in the building would just be laughed at by most people. This is going to be disregarded by most people outside of Michigan and Indiana by the time Monday morning rolls around.

This isn't some problem that's been running rampant throughout the NBA or even the Pistons building, which is why the "ban alochol sales" thing doesn't wash with me. This is a one time freak occurence caused by a dickhead fan who likes being annoying and a spoiled athlete wannabe-thug who knows he can get away with anything.

(edited by KaneRobot on 20.11.04 1234)
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