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The W - Pro Wrestling - Is Vince just that dumb? (Page 2)
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Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
    Originally posted by Dave Gagnon
      Originally posted by mumsboy
      I mean lance held the WCW intercontinental title for quite a while and Tommy Dreamer who was a former ECW champion


    To be fair, Storm's reign lasted no more than 6 weeks and Tommy Dreamer's reign lasted 15 minutes.


True, I thought Storm's run with Team Canada and the tag titles was good though, and they were getting good reactions especially when wrestling Edge/Hogan. Not saying he deserves a bigger push than Lesnar though, i'm just saying they could've found a place for him when they usually didn't.



Lance's Response:

THAT IS AWESOME!
TheGreekPhysique
Bauerwurst








Since: 13.2.04
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 2968 days
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.78
You can take ALMOST anyone on that roster, past or present and with the right gimmick and storyline and people helping sincerely to get them over, they will get over.

You telling me Rico is a better wrestler/talker/more charisma then Lance Storm? Or Tommy Dreamer? Now Rico is getting this mini-push, getting a pretty damn good reaction from the fans, and I myself think it's great ALA Ricky Starr of old. Right place, right time. Now tell me why Rico/Haas were on freaking Velocity or Heat or whatever this week?

WWE officials are either
A) Buffoons
B) Spiteful bastards
C) all of the above
SKLOKAZOID
Bratwurst








Since: 20.3.02
From: California

Since last post: 52 min.
Last activity: 2 min.
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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.08
    Originally posted by Parts Unknown

    I don't care whether they were pushed down our throats or not, those guys were OVER. Period.


Yes, they were over, and you can like whoever you want to like. But, that's not what I was correcting you on.

    Originally posted by Parts Unknown
    Brock, Goldberg, Nash and Hall were given great pushes because they actually were over.


You claimed Goldberg was pushed, because he was over. Actually, Goldberg was over, because he was pushed. Hard. That's just the way it happened. Same with Lesnar.

Nash could go either way. Nash worked his way up the political ladder, but he did have the charisma to back himself up. Hall was great in his day.

Yes, they were over. Period. But, I believe your earlier statement to be incorrect.
OndaGrande
Kolbasz








Since: 1.5.03
From: California, Home of THE LAKERS!

Since last post: 10 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77

Just remember this, Vince said himself that he knows what the fans want even more than they do. That's his story and he's sticking to it, come hell or high water and there is really nothing any of us (especially us dubyas) can ever do about it.
What he REALLY knows is that the Fans (as in people like those of us here) will watch no matter what just to see the occasional glimmer of hope and that the Audience (people channel surfing/ entertainment junkies) will like the recockulous stuff and pay the bills. The Audience constantly turns over but as long as there is one, we're stuck with "Sport's Entertainment" and when there is no more Audience, We Fans will be out of luck because there won't be any wrestling on TV at all anymore.



LEARN IT, KNOW IT, LIVE IT!
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

Since last post: 217 days
Last activity: 33 min.
#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.39
The Official WWE Revisionist History is that anyone who's ever been any good got that way in the WWE. That's final.

The crazy truth is that good wrestlers came from all over. Andre the Giant wrestled somewhere (I forget where) for a while before he got signed by the WWF. Hogan came from the AWA. Benoit came from Stampede, ECW & WCW, depending on where you think he got good. Same with Guerrero (except replace Stampede with Mexico). The problem is that the tippity-top guys in WCW were folks that they "stole" from the WWF and the tippity-top guys in ECW were folks that neither promotion had an interest in until they got popular. And even then, it's kind of pointless to try to replicate the conditions that made Tommy Dreamer, RVD or Raven big stars in ECW because it's impossible to do it. With former big-name WCW guys like Steiner, Goldberg, Nash & Hall, they got pushed hard at the start until fans responded with a resounding "Huh?" and they got shelved until the writers found something for them to do. It seems only Goldberg really had a shot at it. They did similar things with Benoit, Jericho & Guerrero, but they had a large enough fanbase that they always got some TV time even when they weren't being pushed hard. Their wrestling skill probably helped. A large portion of former WCW talent signed by the WWE seemed to lack a lot of fundamental skill, and that probably helped kill their push.



THE NHL'S FINAL FOUR:
Western Conference Final: San Jose Sharks vs. Calgary Flames [Game 1: Sunday]
Eastern Conference Final: Tampa Bay Lightning vs. Philadelphia Flyers [Game 1: Saturday]
HallMark
Haggis








Since: 29.5.03
From: Miami

Since last post: 3630 days
Last activity: 3630 days
#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.77
    Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro
    The only guy the WWE has truely misused or never tapped into the last couple of years was Raven.


Raven was never worth the investment. Undersized, no look, not a draw, and old. McMahon knows how to make new stars. Pushing Raven would just be rehashing an old ECW product.

(edited by thecubsfan on 8.5.04 1330)
Joe E. Nitro
Salami








Since: 4.2.04

Since last post: 3543 days
Last activity: 1024 days
#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.95
    Originally posted by HallMark
      Originally posted by Joe E. Nitro
      The only guy the WWE has truely misused or never tapped into the last couple of years was Raven.


    Raven was never worth the investment. Undersized, no look, not a draw, and old. McMahon knows how to make new stars. Pushing Raven would just be rehashing an old ECW product.

    (edited by thecubsfan on 8.5.04 1330)


That's a lot to say about a guy that's been over huge everywhere, but the WWE the last 10 years.




(edited by Joe E. Nitro on 8.5.04 1504)
oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1899 days
Last activity: 1833 days
#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.43
"WWE officials are either
A) Buffoons
B) Spiteful bastards
C) all of the above"

Oh I would LOVE for the fed to pack their bags and hand the keys over to the hundred or so of us who regularly frequent this board, just so some people can put their money where their mouth is and make total fools of themselves. You realise that if any of this "oh they're so DUMB" crap was even remotely true that the company would have gone out of business about a decade ago? Do you really think that a pack of "buffoons" has what it takes to operate a travelling company that plays on average two live dates a night, puts on a live TV show at least once a week and finds something for 80% of it's on-air talent something to do, ALL whilst juggling the egos and emotions of men and women who are away from their families for two-thirds of a year?



842 Years Young

BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.11
What ultimately got Eddie over to the point they could push him as a main eventer was when he turned on Tajiri. Up until that point he (and Chavo pre-injury) had the "lie, cheat, and steal" gimmick, but outside those vignettes never really did anything to play it up in their matches or their storylines. It was a cool idea from the start, but since they spent 90% of their time playing bland midcard faces it never really clicked. Eddie putting Tajiri through the windshield was the first thing either of them did in a storyline context that played into their supposed characters; I don't think it's a coincidence that this is when Eddie really started to get hot.

I'm kinda late joining in this discussion, but a couple thoughts on some things that have been said so far...

*If being an ECW champion means that Tommy Dreamer should have gotten a push, does that mean WWE should have signed/pushed The Sandman? I enjoyed ECW but it was such a unique environment that getting over there didn't necessarily mean you were going to get over anywhere else. Hell, Da Baldies got decent heat in ECW.

*If Raven is too old to do anything with, why has TNA been able to get so much out of him? Granted they don't have as big a talent pool, but you can't deny he's over. Like Nitro said, he's been over just about everywhere, including WCW and ECW. Raven can contribute in a number of different ways; I think they did miss the boat with him even if he would have been a midcard guy getting on in years.

*Finally, this thread started with a couple complaints about how Brock Lesnar only got over because he was forced down our throats. I'd rebut the negative connotation of that argument with two points. First, Brock did get over, and went on to put on some very memorable matches (not to mention he almost single-handedly salvaged Big Show's career with an assist to Heyman's booking). Second, how else are they supposed to get a new guy over? Have him lose repeatedly and get bumped down to Heat? They thought they had something in Brock so they ran with it, and in the long run it paid off. I don't think a couple of Hardy Boyz squashes and a boring IC program with RVD make a high price to pay to get a bonafide, over main event wrestler six months into his career.

Many of us, myself included, often complain that WWE doesn't try new things and when they do they give up on them too quickly. They tried pretty hard with Brock I agree, but considering that nobody could tell he was just gonna bail after two years it's hard to argue that it was a mistake. Quite frankly, I wish they'd make such concerted efforts more often. It may not work out in every case, but at least there'd be less room for second guessing and they'd get a better picture of who can be a player and who can't.

Oh, and now that Benoit and Guerrero are champs and Storm is retired, I suppose I do have to find something new to gripe about...

Ya know, ever since WrestleMania, that HHH guy has gotten a pretty raw deal...



The Toronto Maple Leafs: Hockey's equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, but easier to hate.
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 392 days
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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.75
    Originally posted by oldschoolhero
    "WWE officials are either
    A) Buffoons
    B) Spiteful bastards
    C) all of the above"

    Oh I would LOVE for the fed to pack their bags and hand the keys over to the hundred or so of us who regularly frequent this board, just so some people can put their money where their mouth is and make total fools of themselves. You realise that if any of this "oh they're so DUMB" crap was even remotely true that the company would have gone out of business about a decade ago? Do you really think that a pack of "buffoons" has what it takes to operate a travelling company that plays on average two live dates a night, puts on a live TV show at least once a week and finds something for 80% of it's on-air talent something to do, ALL whilst juggling the egos and emotions of men and women who are away from their families for two-thirds of a year?






Look at some of the 'geniuses' that ran Georgia Championship Wrestling, World Championship Wrestling and the American Wrestling Association the previous few decades and buffoons could be considered a generous term for them. Still, those companies were able to survive for years, so it is possible.
As for the original topic:
Dreamer was broken down the last few years in ECW. Perhaps the Tommy Dreamer of '95-'96 would have had a shot, but the Tommy Dreamer of the past few years was a battered shell of his former self.
Lance Storm had the potential to be over, but then he had to take the midget elbow.
Scott Steiner can be described in much the same way as Dreamer. The Scott Steiner of the early 90's would do well, the recent Scott Steiner is a walking injury.




These are desperate times. And desperate times call for desperate measures. Thus, its time to break out the Cubs/White Sox/Red Sox call to put the Kaiser back on the throne.
HallMark
Haggis








Since: 29.5.03
From: Miami

Since last post: 3630 days
Last activity: 3630 days
#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.77


Yeah, Raven has been so over that his presence proved to be a viable threat to McMahon. Raven has been over, in bingo halls and glorified backyard promotions. Raven amd those other ECW guys are good at what they do but they are niche wrestlers with very little chance at mainstream success.

Raven is right where he should be right now. Feuding with Jeff Jarrett in TNA over their title. Boy, signing him has really jumped their buyrates. McMahon is shaking in his boots. Who has a better chance at becoming stars? Orton and Batista or Raven?
BigVitoMark
Lap cheong








Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

Since last post: 3290 days
Last activity: 3200 days
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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.11
So what you're saying is that because Raven isn't going to singlehandedly lead TNA to conquering the McMahon empire that has run just about every other noteable wrestling promoter (at least on this continent) in history out of business, he's no good? Interesting argument, if a tad on the absurd side.

I'm not saying Vince should jettison HHH and bring in Raven to fill his spot, not by a longshot. What I am saying is that simply that Raven is a valuable guy, based on the fact that his act was over in all three of WCW, ECW, and TNA. In other words, when given a chance, he was able to contribute in a very positive way in three different environments in three different times in all three of the most significant non-WWE promotions of the past 15-20 years. The fact that WWE felt they were better off without him while their closest competitor was able to gain by immediately putting him in a featured role should be a clear indication that, as I said, WWE missed the boat with the guy. Should Raven have been in the main event on Raw every week? No, frankly. But he's good enough to have a spot on the show.

To ask who has a better shot at becoming a star at this stage between Raven or Orton/Batista is like asking a football fan "Who has a better chance at becoming a star - Kerry Collins or Eli Manning?"...and that's even if you ignore the fact that one guy is working for a promotion struggling for attention and the other is the biggest wrestling company known to man. Again, you miss my point, and honestly I think yours is way off the mark.



The Toronto Maple Leafs: Hockey's equivalent of the Chicago Cubs, but easier to hate.
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3502 days
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#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.42
    Originally posted by BigVitoMark
    Finally, this thread started with a couple complaints about how Brock Lesnar only got over because he was forced down our throats. I'd rebut the negative connotation of that argument with two points. First, Brock did get over, and went on to put on some very memorable matches (not to mention he almost single-handedly salvaged Big Show's career with an assist to Heyman's booking). Second, how else are they supposed to get a new guy over? Have him lose repeatedly and get bumped down to Heat? They thought they had something in Brock so they ran with it, and in the long run it paid off. I don't think a couple of Hardy Boyz squashes and a boring IC program with RVD make a high price to pay to get a bonafide, over main event wrestler six months into his career.

    Many of us, myself included, often complain that WWE doesn't try new things and when they do they give up on them too quickly. They tried pretty hard with Brock I agree, but considering that nobody could tell he was just gonna bail after two years it's hard to argue that it was a mistake. Quite frankly, I wish they'd make such concerted efforts more often. It may not work out in every case, but at least there'd be less room for second guessing and they'd get a better picture of who can be a player and who can't

I don't think you're necessary wrong. But to play the other side I think Brock Lesner is also the perfect example of why so many in wrestling believe in the tradition of "paying your dues". I bolded you saying "How would we know he'd bail after 2 years". We'd never know for sure but if he started getting whiny about losing to someone who he felt was underneath him(lets say RVD) in his first year. That might be a sign of "wait a second, if he's like this now, how will he react when we think it's time to give the title & focus to someone else (ie Eddie)"... In his first 5 months he's feuding & defeating The Rock. A year in his career he's main eventing WM. Life is good. But if he didn't have the automatic Mainevent push would he have gone Nathan Jones on us in his first year. Would he have gone "this ain't no fun" and take off. We might have seen signs in his first year.

Brock Lesner is interestingly enough the poster child of the pros and cons of a immediate push. He got over, he looked great, and had some great matches. But he also was put over guys that are still in the company and pretty much quit & showed his personalty of a guy who's heart to really commit to the industry for the long haul isn't there... As you said Big Vito lots of people want WWE to go give new guys a big push. But I could see The E view on it too, when giving someone the real big title Push it seems like they really want the confidence that if they're putting their eggs in his basket for that person to have the right mindset to deliver & not let them down but to be there. The 5 months Brock traveling full time with The E it's impossible to know the real passion he had & look what happened. I think they'd rather wait a year & get a better judge of who's sholders they're resting the company on.

It's a shame because Brock Lesner was the greatest big man I've ever seen in the ring. The only one that came close in my mind was Vader(circa WCW). I'm not even talking about major stuff like SSP. I'm talking about the way he bumped, a man his size should not be able to bump that hard & fast. His speed and ability to get up & get in position is freakish. The man was a freak of nature, not just visually but athletically. He also had the ability to wrestle well with different type of wrestlers, from giants like BigShow to smaller tech guys like Angle. Even A-train best match was not against Benoit(sorry guys) But I think it was vs. Lesner at a main evetn SD with Cena doing commentary... His mic skills was probably his weakest point, but he was getting better at that too early this year when he was acting like a spoiled jock in his feud vs. Eddie. It fit him pretty well ironically.



smark/net attack wienerville advisory stays at BLUE alert - Guarded (With Benoit & Eddie being World & WWE champions you'd expect all's be right but couldn't do it due to Trish/Y2J character switches & whats the deal with JBL PPV main event)- 5/6
HallMark
Haggis








Since: 29.5.03
From: Miami

Since last post: 3630 days
Last activity: 3630 days
#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.77
I was too busy trying to state my case rather than read in detail what others were saying. Big Vito Mark, you illustrated your point very clearly and I can't say I disagree. I concur with your statement, you made me convinced. It's good to know we have articulate and intelligent wieners on this board (not speaking for myself.)
BTW, I like the Eli Manning/Kerry Collins analogy, it made things a loy more easier for me. I still have my opinion on most ECW guys however.


Actually for Raven to be called Kery Collins, he would have to lead a team to a Super Bowl. Raven hasn't done anything remotely close to that. Raven isn't Collins. He is more like a disgruntled, washed up, never was, back up QB who had friends in high places. McMahon had Raven on more than one occassion. McMahon is a smart man. You can only take Johnny Polo so far.

(edited by HallMark on 9.5.04 0203)

(edited by HallMark on 9.5.04 0205)
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- dwaters, RAW #950 8/8/11 (2011)
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