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The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#1 Posted on
Generally those who are against the war have been clamoring for the "smoking gun". Does this fit the bill?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80676,00.html


God only knows what else we'll find if/when we go in
Promote this thread!
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
"International weapons inspectors have stumbled upon a new kind of bomb in Iraq that could be filled with chemical or biological agents and strewn over populated areas, Fox News has confirmed."

They "confirmed" that it "COULD" be filled with stuff? This story is full of "could," "might," "may," "possibly," etc. I like to base my thoughts on things a little more concrete rather than blind assumptions.

When they come out with some solid proof that Iraq definitely has weapons, than that's news. This is the same crap we've been hearing for months. Not that concrete proof of the weapons' existence would necessarily convince me that a war is needed, though...

(edited by TheBucsFan on 10.3.03 1941)
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
Yeah, it also has a range of 500 km, MUCH longer than the sanctions allow. Not that that matters to the Peacenik crowd...



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
Pool-Boy
Lap cheong








Since: 1.8.02
From: Huntington Beach, CA

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#4 Posted on
No, I think this will be taken as "See, the inspections are WORKING!"

Even though this is clear evidence that Sadaam is in material breach of 1441.

Personally, I am in favor of completely ignoring the UN at this point. When you have France threatening to veto ANY resolution that has a threat of war, regardless of any current and future evidence against Iraq, it has come to the point where the UN is totally unable to back up any of these pieces of paper it spews out.

The only thing I am curious about in regards to the UN is if Blix is going to take up Hussein's offer to "Visit Baghdad" on deadline day... like the rationale behind THAT invite isn't transparent...




PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Pool-Boy
    No, I think this will be taken as "See, the inspections are WORKING!"

    Even though this is clear evidence that Sadaam is in material breach of 1441.

    Personally, I am in favor of completely ignoring the UN at this point. When you have France threatening to veto ANY resolution that has a threat of war, regardless of any current and future evidence against Iraq, it has come to the point where the UN is totally unable to back up any of these pieces of paper it spews out.

    The only thing I am curious about in regards to the UN is if Blix is going to take up Hussein's offer to "Visit Baghdad" on deadline day... like the rationale behind THAT invite isn't transparent...



Did you catch Ari Fleischer today calling the UN on the carpet for failing to act against Milosevic and in Rwanda? Impressive stuff.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
TheBucsFan
TheChiefsFan








Since: 2.1.02

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
I *totally* misread that headline. It's not saying "the weapon could exist", it's saying "the weapon exists, and could be used in this way."

So I retract that part of my last post. That said, I still don't think the way to prevent massive death counts is by killing people.
cranlsn
Liverwurst








Since: 18.3.02
From: Sussex, WI

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#7 Posted on
Glad you re-read the headline but I'm still puzzled by what you will need to justfy going in and disarming Iraq. Do they need to have pictures of them actually using said weapon to kill hundreds, even thousands, of people?

I've stated before, I'm not crazy about the idea of war, no sane person is. But I do see it as a necessary "evil", for lack of a better word, to prevent those deaths.

It's not just the deaths that could occur from those weapons already in existance, but the escalation of WOMD that would occur if we continue to ignore rogue nations such as Iraq.




When all else fails, there's always the Simpsons.

PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by cranlsn
    It's not just the deaths that could occur from those weapons already in existance, but the escalation of WOMD that would occur if we continue to ignore rogue nations such as Iraq.


This is a very good point. Look at the way North Korea (justifiably) has everyone's panties in a twist. Now imagine five more of them. Hell, just imagine one more: Iran. How long do you think it will take for a dirty bomb to explode in Tel Aviv once Iran has The Bomb?



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
Dahak
Frankfurter








Since: 12.5.02
From: Junction City OR.

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#9 Posted on
The only problem Palpatine is that the U.S. has no reason to attack Iran or North Korea. Iraq is in violation of U.N. resolution 1441. Iran and North Korea have not as yet violated a treaty. To me even though the U.N. is being halfass the U.S. is backing up their rules not the U.S. just doing whatever the hell they want.
As far as Iran using directly or giving a nuke to a terrorist to nuke Isreal it is a possibility no doubt. But Israel has never made it secret what their response would be. Damascus, Tehran, and Baghdad would be nuked about 2 minutes later. Probably a lot of other Muslim cities too. What is scary is that Iran might get 1 or 2 sooner than anyone thinks. Then when Isreal uses it's strike first policy (without using nukes) Iran might just say "fuck it nuke the Jews."



Marge I am just trying to get into heaven not run for Jesus.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#10 Posted on
{ EDIT: I totally misread what I was responding too from Dahak, so this message is actually quite pointless! BUT, since a little information never heard anybody (a couple of staggering amounts of ignorance come to mind), I'll leave the rest of this here for research's sake. }

To paraphrase paragraph 2, 1441 was supposed to be "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" (emphasis mine). Read the full text of SC Res 1441 (un.int). This is why you hear "material breach of 1441" as if it were a mantra - the deal is supposed to be that 1441 was supposed to be *the last chance* for Iraq. The US shouldn't even HAVE to get yet ANOTHER resolution passed....but that's the way of the UN. (Can you tell I was in Model UN in college?)

If you're REALLY bored, here's S/RES/687 from 1991 (domino.un.org) - I THINK that'll work. Man, they make it hard to access their documents!

(edited by CRZ on 11.3.03 0206)

(edited by CRZ on 11.3.03 0209)



©CRZ™
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by CRZ
    Can you tell I was in Model UN in college

Nothing like flying to Boston for the right to be....Mozambique.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネアポリス

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#12 Posted on

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by CRZ
      Can you tell I was in Model UN in college

    Nothing like flying to Boston for the right to be....Mozambique.

Boston? You were ripped off!

We went to the ACTUAL UN for Nationals (I thought they always did this! I'm naive!) where I was part of the first ever Azerbaijani delegation (I want to say First Committee, but honestly I can't remember) We got certificates! I forget what for...probably honourable mentions for whatever-size delegation, which was pretty cool since UCR took two delegations and the other group got stiffed.
Also I got to ride the elevator to near the top of one of the Twin Towers (I have never forgotten), which I had unfortunately timed to happen BEFORE the Statue of Liberty in my sightseeing - making the trek up the staircase of the Statue quite a letdown by comparison.

For more trifling details about my exciting life, please consult my blog at www.youneedalifemorethanido.com



©CRZ™
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1185 days
Last activity: 982 days
#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29

    Originally posted by CRZ
    Boston? You were ripped off!

    We went to the ACTUAL UN for Nationals (I thought they always did this! I'm naive!)


We were part of the Harvard Model UN, hence the Boston involvement. Our school was too cheap to send us to NYC.



There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.
- Theodore Roosevelt, Ocotber 12, 1915
calvinh0560
Boudin rouge








Since: 3.1.02
From: People's Republic of Massachusetts

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00

    Originally posted by PalpatineW
    This is a very good point. Look at the way North Korea (justifiably) has everyone's panties in a twist. Now imagine five more of them. Hell, just imagine one more: Iran. How long do you think it will take for a dirty bomb to explode in Tel Aviv once Iran has The Bomb?


Am I the only one who is thinking that Israel will fly over to Iran and blow up the nuclear buildings before they are able to complete a bomb. I mean it worked last time they did it. I think the only reason they have not yet is because the US told them to hold on for awhile longer. But I am sure once they get real close to the bomb they will do it even if the US does not want them to.
MoeGates
Andouille








Since: 6.1.02
From: Brooklyn, NY

Since last post: 6 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.28
As far as Iran goes, you not only have to worry about Israel, you have to worry about Pakistan/India issues as well. Iran with the bomb - or close to it - (and its current government, which is far from a guarantee) could be really tricky to deal with.



It seems that I am - in no particular order - Zack Morris, John Adams, a Siren, Janeane Garofalo, Cheer Bear, Aphrodite, a Chihuahua, Data, Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel, Amy-Wynn Pastor, Hydrogen, Bjork, Spider-Man, Boston, and a Chaotic Good Elvin Bard-Mage.
The Masked Hungarian
Pickled pork








Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#16 Posted on
Can anyone from the anti-war side of this debate tell me what we SHOULD do about Iraq? The UN has very little credibility at this point, if they don't enforce their own rules then what? Why should any other country oblige by any rules given?

My point is that after asking for "the smoking gun" and receiving it now the argument changes to just being anti-war. Well sometimes war is necessary -WWII being a great example. So if you - those opposed to military action were in charge right now how would you handle this?
PalpatineW
Lap cheong








Since: 2.1.02
From: Getting Rowdy

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44

    Originally posted by Grimis

      Originally posted by CRZ
      Boston? You were ripped off!

      We went to the ACTUAL UN for Nationals (I thought they always did this! I'm naive!)


    We were part of the Harvard Model UN, hence the Boston involvement. Our school was too cheap to send us to NYC.



Ah, good ole HMUN. I went in high school, and we represented the Seychelles. We got shafted though, and didn't make the cut to stay in the Park Plaza Hotel, staying instead in the less opulent Tremont Street Hotel.



"... I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass..."

Pedro Martinez
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3391 days
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#18 Posted on
I think they would have a frappichino, smoke weed and watch the war on CNN. ONLY on CNN.

DMC







How BLACK are you?

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Mr. Heat Miser
Blutwurst








Since: 27.1.02

Since last post: 2460 days
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#19 Posted on

    Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
    Can anyone from the anti-war side of this debate tell me what we SHOULD do about Iraq? The UN has very little credibility at this point, if they don't enforce their own rules then what? Why should any other country oblige by any rules given?

    My point is that after asking for "the smoking gun" and receiving it now the argument changes to just being anti-war. Well sometimes war is necessary -WWII being a great example. So if you - those opposed to military action were in charge right now how would you handle this?



[Devil's Advocate Mode On]

How about nothing?

If the UN isn't willing to enforce their own resolutions, the US doing it unilaterally won't enhance UN credibility at all anyway.

We didn't invade India before they got nukes, and everyone knew they were working on them. We didn't invade Pakistan before they got nukes, and everyone knew they were working on them. Maybe we should take the anti gun-control argument as a model, and hope that Iraq and Iran both get nukes, to balance the undeclared-but-commonly-assumed-to-exist Israeli nukes. More nuclear weapons posessed by more countries makes everone safer.

We don't like Saddam, but so what? Regime change is the job of the Iraqi people, not the US. Let the Iraqis have their own revolution. It isn't anyone else's business. The colonial Americans overthrew the British themselves, didn't they? The eastern European countries freed themselves.

How about doing nothing, because the rational for doing something isn't all that clear?

[Devil's Advocate mode off]



-MHM, winner of the 2000 Throwdown in Christmastown.
Enojado Viento
Potato korv








Since: 12.3.02
From: Your Grocer's Freezer, NC

Since last post: 637 days
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#20 Posted on
    Originally posted by The Masked Hungarian
    Can anyone from the anti-war side of this debate tell me what we SHOULD do about Iraq?


Surround the country and bottle them up for the duration. Total blockade, no exceptions. Explain that any plains sighed will be shot down without question, whatever is heded for the border will be blown up and keep up the pressure until Saddam's regime collapses under the blockade.

Containment won the Cold War, and it can damn sure work on some Third Word country we don't *dare* invade lest we get caught in irreconcilable tribal warfare that even Bush Sr. knew better than to try to get the US mired in.



(edited by Enojado Viento on 11.3.03 1938)



-LS

"Yeah, well, the movie lied."
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