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The W - Baseball - Is Manny Ramirez the best foreign-born baseball player in history?
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Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.56

It would be very tough to top him right now. There are a few still early in their careers, like Pujols, but MRam is well on his way to being one of the most productive players of all time.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01

Clemente?
Ichiro?
sammy?
pedro?

btw, it's amazing to see the list of dominican players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_from_Dominican_Republic_in_Major_League_Baseball



Mark Coale
Odessa Steps Magazine
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Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 279 days
Last activity: 273 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.56

    Originally posted by odessasteps

    Clemente?
    Ichiro?
    sammy?
    pedro?




Manny's life OPS is over 1.000 and 9th in the history of the game, obliterating those batters. And no Pedro.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
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As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
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As of 5/18/08: Still 217 down!
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Super Shane Spear
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Sector 7 Slums

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.85
Johan Santana, Justin Morneau, Manny, Pujols, and Miguel Cabrera would be my top five currently.

All-time? I don't know if I'd change that. Maybe Ferguson Jenkins...

Edit: Maybe replace Morneau with Vlad Guerrero too.

(edited by Super Shane Spear on 10.10.08 1553)
supersalvadoran
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Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
I'll go with (in alphabetical order of country):

-Canada: Larry Walker (a great all-around hitter and one of the best feilding outfielders in the 90's), Fergie Jenkins (HOF pitcher, can't argue with that).

-Cuba: Rafael Palmeiro (yeah he used steriods and lied about it, but you can't say that his 3000 hits and 500 HRs, including 9 straight with 38+, were a total fluke and/or cheat), Tony Perez (one of the key clogs of the Big Red Machine).

-Curacao: Andruw Jones (he sucked big time these last two years, but before he was one of the greatest outfielders of all time who could hit for power pretty well. If he can get back to what he once was, he could have a shot at 500 HRs).

-Dominican Republic: Vladimir Guerrero (he will end up with 3000+ hits and 500+ HRs when his career is done), Manny Ramirez (the best RBI producer of this generation), Pedro Martinez (the top pitcher of the 90's, even more dominant than Randy or Roger), Juan Marichal (one of the top pitchers of the 60's), Albert Pujols (a sure future HOF'er, he always will give you 30+ HRs and a batting avg. well above .300) .

-Japan: Hideo Nomo (heck of a pitcher when he was on his good day, one of only five pitchers to have no hitters in both leagues), Ichiro Suzuki (despite his late start in thew majors, he will get past 3000 hits. Plus, he's a perennial gold glover).

-Mexico: Fernando Valenzuela (one of the most dynamic players to watch in the 80's).

-Netherlands: Bert Blyleven (he should be in the HOF. He may not have a great winn-loss record and never won the Cy Young award, but that didn't stop Don Sutton or Nolan Ryan from getting in).

-Nicaragua: Dennis Martinez (a good pither, he's my homer pick since he is the only representative out of central America).

-Panama: Rod Carew (a HOF hitter, his remind me of Tony Gwynn's, a favorite of mine), Mariano Riviera (the greatest reliever of all time).

- Venezuela: Andres Galarraga (one of my favorite players to watch throughout the 90's), Dave Concepcion (was Ozzie before Ozzie and even had better batting stats than him. Deserves a better look into getting into the HOF than he has been given), Johan Santana (one of the most dominating pitchers these days).

I would include Puerto Rico, with Roberto Clemente, Ivan Rodriguez, and Robby Alomar being listed. However, since P.R. is under U.S. territory, I don't consider it foregin and I just can't place them with the others.

That's my list. It's just my opinion but I happen to think this would make a great all-around team. For any info for these and other foregin-born players, I found this (baseball-reference.com) to be mighty useful.







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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.56
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dwaters
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Since: 16.10.02
From: Connecticut

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.94
Don't forget Jamaica-born Justin Masterson.
AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.73
    Originally posted by supersalvadoran
    I'll go with (in alphabetical order of country):

    -Cuba: Rafael Palmeiro (yeah he used steriods and lied about it, but you can't say that his 3000 hits and 500 HRs, including 9 straight with 38+, were a total fluke and/or cheat)


You included Rafe - who actually tested positive for Steroids, but not Sammy who did not? The Only player to ever hit more than 60 HRs 3 times, over 600 Hrs, 10 years in a row over 35 Hrs, 5 years in a row 49 and over? While I agree Sammy must have been on the juice as many were in that time period, including several on your list (jones, for sure, and maybe the Big Cat [he came back awful quick a couple times])



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supersalvadoran
Landjager








Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.07
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by supersalvadoran
      I'll go with (in alphabetical order of country):

      -Cuba: Rafael Palmeiro (yeah he used steriods and lied about it, but you can't say that his 3000 hits and 500 HRs, including 9 straight with 38+, were a total fluke and/or cheat)


    You included Rafe - who actually tested positive for Steroids, but not Sammy who did not? The Only player to ever hit more than 60 HRs 3 times, over 600 Hrs, 10 years in a row over 35 Hrs, 5 years in a row 49 and over? While I agree Sammy must have been on the juice as many were in that time period, including several on your list (jones, for sure, and maybe the Big Cat [he came back awful quick a couple times])


Got to admit, that totally slipped my mind for some insane reason. Yeah, he's exactly on the same boat as Raffy. A big time home run hitter, he also had 9 straight years of 100+ RBI and was on the 30-30 club twice- no small feat, even if like Palmeiro, his stats may be called into question.

    Originally posted by dwaters
    Don't forget Jamaica-born Justin Masterson.


Now that I think about it, I totally forgot the Jamaican contingent, Chili Davis and Devon White. Not HOF'ers, but they both had really good careers and were both proven winners (3 WS for each of them).

I wrote this really late at night and had to do it twice because of stupid Vista. So while I still stand by the list, I won't say it's concrete or anything. I'm sure I am missing a couple of others that I will think of later on.






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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.40
If you include a questionable Sosa, what about the questionable Cuban born Canseco? We're including cheaters who mash the ball, right?




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britishiles
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Since: 22.7.05
From: Suburbs of Tulsa, OK

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.00
I gotta lean towards Roberto Clemente myself. But Manny is up there.

No one mentioned Juan Marichal.



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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.73
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    If you include a questionable Sosa, what about the questionable Cuban born Canseco? We're including cheaters who mash the ball, right?


Much more inconsistent than the other two. But her did have some good years. Sammy did hit 150 more HRs than him and more than 200 More RBIs, 7 Points higher BA.

Of course, you say cheaters, but using almost any substance was not illegal in baseball during most of their careers, and Sosa, for one, never tested positive, although he was tested many times.

(edited by AWArulz on 13.10.08 2009)


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odessasteps
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01
    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by Guru Zim
      If you include a questionable Sosa, what about the questionable Cuban born Canseco? We're including cheaters who mash the ball, right?


    Much more inconsistent than the other two. But her did have some good years. Sammy did hit 150 more HRs than him and more than 200 More RBIs, 7 Points higher BA.

    Of course, you say cheaters, but using almost any substance was not illegal in baseball during most of their careers, and Sosa, for one, never tested positive, although he was tested many times.

    (edited by AWArulz on 13.10.08 2009)


There is the whole corked bat thing though.



Mark Coale
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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.73
    Originally posted by odessasteps


    There is the whole corked bat thing though.


Yeah. I forgot about that, although I really do attribute that to taking the wrong bat to the plate. Sammy loved to hit a zillion homers in BP for the fans.



We'll be back right after order has been restored here in the Omni Center.


“That the universe was formed by a fortuitous concourse of atoms, I will no more believe than that the accidental jumbling of the alphabet would fall into a most ingenious treatise of philosophy” - Swift

Quezzy
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Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.49
    Originally posted by britishiles
    I gotta lean towards Roberto Clemente myself. But Manny is up there.



Agreed. Like most baseball comparisons you can't automatically say Manny is better because he has better offensive numbers. Clemente played in the 50's and 60's. I'm sure if Clemente played today he'd put up monster numbers. Plus being a good player isn't just having a good OPS. There's a much bigger gap between the two in defense than there is in offense. Clemente died three or four years before his career was over and he still has the record for most Gold Gloves by an outfielder.

    Originally posted by AWArulz
      Originally posted by odessasteps


      There is the whole corked bat thing though.


    Yeah. I forgot about that, although I really do attribute that to taking the wrong bat to the plate. Sammy loved to hit a zillion homers in BP for the fans.


He loved to hit a zillion home runs for the fans in games too though.



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Zeruel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by odessasteps


    There is the whole corked bat thing though.


Now, I wouldn't take it as fact as I have an issue with their testing methods, the Mythbusters gang "proved" that corking a bat does nothing to help a batter. Their test showed that because of the reduction in weight, there is less mass so the ball comes off the bat slower.

I think they forgot to take into account that because there is less mass, the batter can swing faster. Their rig swung at a constant speed. My theory is that the increased velocity would overcome the slight drop in mass. They never tested that, so we'll never know unless they revisit it.



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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.01

Whether or not a corked bat actually helps the batter or not, it's still illegal. So, Sosa would still be guilty of using it.





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DrDirt
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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.79
    Originally posted by odessasteps

    Whether or not a corked bat actually helps the batter or not, it's still illegal. So, Sosa would still be guilty of using it.




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Since: 19.3.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.84
    Originally posted by Quezzy
      Originally posted by britishiles
      I gotta lean towards Roberto Clemente myself. But Manny is up there.


    Agreed. Like most baseball comparisons you can't automatically say Manny is better because he has better offensive numbers. Clemente played in the 50's and 60's. I'm sure if Clemente played today he'd put up monster numbers. Plus being a good player isn't just having a good OPS. There's a much bigger gap between the two in defense than there is in offense. Clemente died three or four years before his career was over and he still has the record for most Gold Gloves by an outfielder.


Well, there is OPS+ to put a player's OPS in the context of the time in which he plays. Agreed OPS is not the end-all be-all stat, but it's definitely better than batting average or Gold Gloves won. Clemente's career OPS+ was 130...which puts him about 150-160th of all time, hanging out with the likes of Jason Bay and, Eddie Famous' favorite, Adam Dunn.

Through 2008, Manny's career OPS+ is 155...which puts him around the top 25 of all time, right beside Aaron, Dimaggio, and Ott. Clemente only topped 155 in a season three times.

Now granted, Clemente was much better defensively than Ramirez (as well as Bay and Dunn), but he wasn't *that* much better.

The point is moot though since Albert Pujols is, barring some freak injury, going to blow them all away by the time he's done, if you don't think he's already done so.



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none of my posts are making sense today. hope this one breaks it With the move from Oakland to the Cell, I think Swisher will probably get back to the 30s just because of park differences.
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