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The W - Pro Wrestling - Is JD intentionally crap? (Page 2)
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Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2778 days
Last activity: 2762 days
#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91

    Originally posted by Vega14k

      Originally posted by Vega14k

        Originally posted by Dante23x
        The question is why are they going to bother with the RAW-only PPV's? The need to end the split ASAP.


      I don't know . . . I'm kinda hoping they go through with it just long enough to show them how shi++y the product is right now. Vince has money, so they're not going out of business as fast as most people would predict.

      I'm also interested to see how they flesh out a 3-hr PPV without Smackdown - in a perverse car-wreck sorta way.

      Heck it'll be the most entertaining thing WWE has done in months.

    God forbid I express my opinion about how I feel something will turn out on an opinion board. Didn't I say I was gonna tune in to see it? It's not like I've written it off without seeing it - I just made a prediction, that's all. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll *gladly* admit it. Gladly.

    In addition, I know RAW has a roster big enough to fill two PPV's - it's not the roster I'm concerned about. Creative can't come up with any interesting midcard storylines right now - (witness: Dudleys vs. Bischoff, Three Minute Warning, IC Battle Royal, Steiner/Test vs. La Resistance, Fatal-4-Way womens title zzzzzzz. . . ) what makes you think they can create interest in a PPV top to bottom w/o Smackdown main events to help? I mean, look - there's two title matches in that list I mentioned right there. Neither one of them have any buildup whatsoever - they don't care enough about the IC title to do anything meaningful with it other than just throw a bunch of guys in the ring and get it over with. They have the most talented roster of women they have ever had and they can't even come up with anything compelling for them to do so they just throw them all in one match and call it 'done.' Whoopee. Pay them now.

    The fact that they will have twice as many weeks means nothing because they also will have twice as many matches to produce. If they writers were showing promise right now I'd think differently, but we haven't seen any reason to believe that these guys even have the potential to write good stuff - so why should I think otherwise?

    In addition to that - there's a big difference between having a big roster and having a roster full of draws. RAW is NOT a roster full of draws. Goldberg, maybe. Who else?? Jericho? Well, he's fun, but I would not call him a draw.
    People do not tune in to see HHH, Shawn, Nash, Steiner - I think that's been proven by now.

    To repeat (so that you don't miss this salient point): I AM GOING TO WATCH. I just made a prediction, that's all - and I'm allowed to do that. Regardless, I'll make sure to check with you next time to see if it's OK if I can "fucking bitch" about something before I "fucking bitch" about it. I didn't think I was "fucking bitching," but then, you never know I guess.

    (And No, people would not have cared about Steiner/Test vs. La Resistance if it had more time, because one half of that equation is STEINER/TEST. The other half sucks, too, just not as gloriously. Cheap heat or no, if you are that dry and vanilla, you are gonna be boring.)



Well, let's see here...

You said you would watch, yes... "in a perverse, car-wreck sorta way." You also said "I'm kinda hoping they go through with it just long enough to show them how shi++y (I like that, that's cute) the product is right now."

So, essentially, you stated that you were going to tune in to see it suck and watch WWE founder in a roiling sea of shitty wrestling. That, to me, is bitching about the product, whether you worded it to make yourself sound clever and smarky or not.

I really have no problem with bitching about WWE. there's a lot to bitch about, stuff that has happened or is in the process of happening. Triple H, Judgment Day, Hogan, take your pick. I do think it's lame to whine about something that hasn't even begun yet. All we know about the brand-specific PPVs is that they are going to happen, and already you've decided that it's going to suck, WWE will fuck it up, there are no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

You're writing about how they obviously don't care about the IC title because the title holder will be determined in a battle royal. Huh? The title hasn't even been awarded yet, and you've written off the IC division just because you don't like the idea of a battle royal? That makes no sense. If the battle royal is so terrible, how would YOU do it, since you obviously have all the ideas?

You say that Raw has no drawing power. I say you're out of it. It absolutely has the star power over Smackdown. Goldberg is a draw. You're crazy if you think Michaels isn't a draw. Do you even watch Raw? Do you see his pops? I may not like the guy, you may not like the guy, but people want to see him. Triple H is a blight upon the World Title scene, yes, but he still gets pops. He may need to drop the belt, but he's still a big name. Nash and Steiner you have a point about. Steiner gets bigger pops than nash, actually. Raw has goddamn Stone Cold Steve Austin, even if he doesn't wrestle. They have RVD, Jericho, Kane and Booker T , who are all fan favorites, if not top draws.

Who does Smackdown have? Hogan's worthless old ass is a draw, certainly. Undertaker is a favorite. Who else? Brock, possibly. No one else. We all like Eddie and Benoit, but they don't put asses in seats. If you're worried about the split PPVs, you should worry more for Smackdown than for Raw, in my opinion.

YOU don't think anyone would have cared about Steiner and Test given more time. You don't know. Yes, they're shitty wrestlers, but with a good angle, they could get fan support. Also, Scott Steiner may be many things, but he is in no way, shape or form "dry" or "vanilla." You're saying that La Resistance sucks when they've only been in the WWE for under a month. Way to give the new guys a chance, I'm glad you're so open.

As for the women's division, I personally could care less about it, but there are only five women in it right now, so there is a definite limit to the number of matches we can see, and we've seen them all. They do have some talent in the pool, but without more wrestlers in the mix, they can't do much with the division. Don't blame the writers for having no depth in the division. There are plenty of other things to blame the writers for that are actually their fault.

You can state whatever opinion you want here, unless CRZ or Guru Zim takes issue with it, anyway. Keep in mind, however, that if others on this board find your opinion poorly supported and take issue with it, they have every right to post a reply that contradicts you; which I do, and did.




Which Trigun Character are You like?

Rangers Lead the Way!
Tom Dean
Bockwurst








Since: 30.8.02
From: New York, NY

Since last post: 3223 days
Last activity: 2592 days
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#22 Posted on
It doesn't seem reasonable to you to say "we've given the split a fair amount of time, they still couldn't figure out a way to make it strengthen the midcard and build new people, therefore split PPV's probably isn't gonna do it either"?



"History is being make-ed... someone is going to get their head completely shaved off"
- David McLane, PPV opening promo


The big question for WWE's future: "Will you, Stephanie Marie McMahon, accept the purity of evil
and take the Lord of Darkness as your Master and your spouse?"

Jakegnosis
Morcilla








Since: 26.7.02
From: Maine

Since last post: 2778 days
Last activity: 2762 days
#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.91
I've enjoyed post-split WWE more than anything since Vince bought WCW. Putting the rosters back together is not going to improve the writing. If the rosters rejoin, the end result will be shows based around Hogan, Vince, Triple H and Goldberg, twice a week. The midcarders who get TV time now will get less then, or none.

I would argue that the reason the midcard isn't doing so well is that there are no midcard belts. It's either World/WWE title or tag team titles. On Raw, they are attempting to address that by bringing back the IC title, which is a no-brainer. On Smackdown, it's not so bad because of the cruiserweight title, which gave guys like Matt Hardy a chance to shine.

If you don't think they're building new stars or using the midcard correctly now, what makes you think a joined roster will improve any of that? My gut says that the only thing to come of it would be more TV time for worthless camera-hogs like Triple H and Hogan. We would have one big Triple H segment and one big Vince/Hogan segment on each show, instead of splitting up the suck. It would leave less time for the good wrestlers.

Why in the world would you think getting rid of the split would give the midcard or new people a better chance?




Which Trigun Character are You like?

Rangers Lead the Way!
Jackson
Sujuk








Since: 4.1.02

Since last post: 1907 days
Last activity: 1432 days
#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.10
Yes, they are intentionally putting on a shitty PPV just to lure you into buying the next one. You are the uber link. Goodbye.

Anyway, back to reality. It seems weird to see a Judgement Day ad without Taker on the poster. Hasn't this usually been Taker's show?



Vega14k
Cotechino








Since: 10.5.03

Since last post: 4080 days
Last activity: 3867 days
#25 Posted on
Jakegnosis,

1) If WWE has given us a reason to be optimistic about their creative ability, please show me.

2) And to repeat myself for a third time: I have not written anything off. Whatever my motiviation for tuning in is, I will watch and WWE has every opportunity to change my mind.

3) Smackdown will have just as much trouble, IMO.

4) Saying Michaels is still a draw is asinine. (Cause he's done so much for the ratings already, right??) Besides that he's not a full-time wrestler. I already said Goldberg might be a draw. You made the best point about Austin - he can't wrestle, thank you. As for Booker, RVD, Jericho etc . . . that is the whole problem! These guys, fun as they are, *are not draws.* They do not spike ratings, they do not bring in PPV buys. What makes you think this is gonna change?

You're problem here seems to be that you don't understand the difference between the terms "big name" and "draw." RAW has tons of big names, yes. A draw is a class unto itself. Austin vs. McMahon was a draw - Degeneration X '97 were big names. See the difference? (For the sake of completeness, Smackdown is in the same hole - with even fewer big names.)

5) I've already expressed my opinion about the IC title battle royal and I am not going to repeat myself, other than to say what they are doing smacks of "not caring." Again, I have written nothing off. I will watch and I hope they prove me wrong. (As for what I'D do? Well, anything except just toss it out there with no buildup at all! Stretch it out to Badd Blood with a tournament or something - that way you build interest, add prestige AND give yourself a good match for the first RAW-PPV!)
Was that so hard?

6) You may contradict me as much as you like, I have no qualms with that. It was your tone I found a little abrasive (not to mention defensive), that's all.

7) "Dry and Vanilla" refers to the other half - La Resistance, not Steiner/Test. Although, in fairness, it could easily be applied to Steiner, too, since he's been doing the all-american schtick for a while now (against Nowinski) and basically all he's said is "Ugh!! Me American! Love it or leave it! Me kick your foreign ass with American right hands and All-American clotheslines!!" (meanwhile his right arm falls off.)

Loads of personality right there. Boy I wish they gave him a few more weeks to develop THAT.

You seem to overreact to my opinions a little bit, Jakegnosis. "Shi++y" and "perverse car-wreck" were flippant remarks I made quickly and were not intended to be taken so darn seriously. Yeesh.

Just because I don't think it will turn out well doesn't mean I've written anything off - that's not fair for you to imply that. To repeat, if they prove me wrong, I will *gladly* eat my words.

Here some positivity for you: Goldberg vs. Austin might be something worth holding on to. There's potential there. Can the writers do something worthwhile with it? That's another story.

I'm not saying they should rejoin the rosters. I'm saying they need to build some draws for both shows before they split PPV's. This is a problem caused by the creative team and politics, and, in consequence, fixing the creative team is the answer, not messing with the format.

EDIT: What you said about the women's division is possibly the richest thing you could have said. You basically said: the writers can't come up w/ anything for the five most talented divas in WWE history to do. Well, what are they gonna do when they have 8 WEEKS of storyline time to fill???
This is the fundemental problem with creative right now: They don't know how to build storylines that are interesting enough to last months at a time. If they did, there would not be a problem with working with only five divas. You didn't help your argument at all with this point.

As it relates to people popping for HHH - I guess that's why ratings have sunk to new lows w/ him as champion and people go to sleep during his matches. Having a "here comes the coolest entrance in the show!" pop does not equal being a draw - sorry.

POPS do not necesarily equal DRAWS. One fundamental difference between the two is that a draw usually involves a killer storyline, not just a big name. So you see, again, it boils down to creative.

EDIT THE SECOND: Equally rich is where you point out that Smackdown has no draws. Thanks for MAKING MY POINT FOR ME.





(edited by Vega14k on 15.5.03 0543)

(edited by Vega14k on 15.5.03 0550)

The "God/heavy rock" riddle for the new millenium:

Can HHH job himself out to himself and bury himself so badly that even HHH can't recover?
OMEGA
Lap cheong








Since: 18.6.02
From: North Cacalacky

Since last post: 1858 days
Last activity: 1826 days
#26 Posted on

    Originally posted by Jackson
    Anyway, back to reality. It seems weird to see a Judgement Day ad without Taker on the poster. Hasn't this usually been Taker's show?


The 2001 poster had Austin & Triple H on the poster. But, yeah, other than that, I believe he has been the poster boy for this PPV. And aside from 2000, Judgment Day seems to always suck, so go figure.

It's probably just because they decided to use him on the poster for Vengeance. Now, I usually do not get all paranoid about how 'The guy who is on the poster MUST be in the main event' like most of the IWC are. But, for some reason, Undertaker being on the poster of the first 'SmackDown only PPV' makes me fear for the quality of SmackDown (not like it's been in the shitter since Heyman stopped writing, but still).



Vega14k
Cotechino








Since: 10.5.03

Since last post: 4080 days
Last activity: 3867 days
#27 Posted on

    Originally posted by OMEGA

      Originally posted by Jackson
      Anyway, back to reality. It seems weird to see a Judgement Day ad without Taker on the poster. Hasn't this usually been Taker's show?


    The 2001 poster had Austin & Triple H on the poster. But, yeah, other than that, I believe he has been the poster boy for this PPV. And aside from 2000, Judgment Day seems to always suck, so go figure.

    It's probably just because they decided to use him on the poster for Vengeance. Now, I usually do not get all paranoid about how 'The guy who is on the poster MUST be in the main event' like most of the IWC are. But, for some reason, Undertaker being on the poster of the first 'SmackDown only PPV' makes me fear for the quality of SmackDown (not like it's been in the shitter since Heyman stopped writing, but still).



Eh, it never means anything, so I wouldn't fear for the quality of SD based on that.

Fear for the quality of SD based on Big Show in a world title match for the *third* time in several months.





The "God/heavy rock" riddle for the new millenium: Could HHH bury himself so badly that even HHH couldn't recover?
Ringmistress
Lap cheong








Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

Since last post: 2592 days
Last activity: 2591 days
#28 Posted on

    Originally posted by OMEGA

      Originally posted by Jackson
      Anyway, back to reality. It seems weird to see a Judgement Day ad without Taker on the poster. Hasn't this usually been Taker's show?


    The 2001 poster had Austin & Triple H on the poster. But, yeah, other than that, I believe he has been the poster boy for this PPV. And aside from 2000, Judgment Day seems to always suck, so go figure.




Come on, 2001 wasn't THAT bad at all, especially in retrospect.

Ringmistress



?!
mightynine
Longanisa








Since: 18.2.02

Since last post: 1106 days
Last activity: 144 days
#29 Posted on
Well, what's going to have to happen is no more title matches for the IC or World Title on RAW. Maybe even for the Tag Titles. The audience is going to have to be re-educated into thinking those are big time matches saved only for the PPV.

Same applies to Smackdown, in fact, for this to work, they're going to have to bring back a secondary title. I mean, the Cruiserweight title is just not that big in the fans' eyes.

So for PPV matches on brand only PPVs:
RAW: World Heavyweight, IC, Tag
SD: WWE Title, U.S. (hypothetical), Tag


Cruiserweight and Women's Title could be defended on TV, regularly, I believe.

Now, the next link in the chain has to be creative. You have to give me a reason to give a crap about the titles and the champions. Now, with some extra time between PPV, you might be able to say to the writers, "Slow Down. Develop the angles, you have more TV time to flesh them out.

And no corpses. Please."

Here's hoping that's what happens. Flesh out the mid-carders more. Hell, flesh out all the characters while you're at it.
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Personally, I would have been just as pissed. It's a bad segment no matter what, even worse than Mae Young giving birth to Hand.
- mountinman44, What if???? (2002)
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