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The W - Pro Wrestling - Is Anyone Capable of Beating Vince?
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Scottyflamingo
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Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 409 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
I think there is this major misconception that WWE is untouchable. That Vince has such a monopoloy on American Wrestling that there is no way a company can get to the level of being competitive.

Let's cut to the chase, Vince is the kingpin of wrestling by default. His competition has always been inept to say the least. On top of that, the major challengers that he has had lost due to their own mistakes rather than anything Vince did.

Crocket spread himself too thin, too quickly. He also had some bad luck in losing a potential main stream star in Magnum.

Bischoff took it to Vince and actually came close to knocking him off, but allowed WCW to become a backstage disaster while spending way too much money.

TNA gets a lot of flack (as they should), but as piss poor as that company has been run, they have managed to get a weekly primetime show with over 1 million viewers in under ten years. Imagine if they'd had decent or even good booking?

That said, to beat Vince you have to have time and money and a mind for the business. Dixie Carter has the time and money, but no mind at all for wrestling. Paul Heyman has a great mind for wrestling, but had no money during the days of ECW.

I think there is a guy who could start a company and potentially threaten Vince, and that man is Steve Austin. Watching Tough Enough just showed how much Austin "Gets" the business. He knows the value of ring work, but he also knows the value of charisma. He appreciates an exciting match, but knows that you have to tell a compelling story for it to matter. So he's got the mind for the business. I have no idea how he is with his finances, but he's got to have a good chunk of change. Even if he doesn't, he has the name value and experience to find investors.

But your mileage may vary.
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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

Since last post: 75 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.45

Yes, there are people capable.

Would they have the available tools needed to do it? Maybe not.



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CajunMan
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Give me a Title shot!

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.56
Dana White! I have not looked at the numbers but it seems White has the bigger ratings and attendance right now.

(edited by CajunMan on 11.6.11 1444)
lotjx
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Since: 5.9.08

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.82
UFC got a number of WWE people, but they will never get them all. They won't get the kids I hope as well as other fans who think UFC having PPVs that cost $50 for a few 3 minutes is just stupid. Dana also has a worse media side then Vince and is eventually going to get nailed for something much like Vince did for steroids. UFC will be around for a long time if they avoid pitfalls, but I doubt it will ever fully replace wrestling

There are people out there with money to burn like a Ted Turner that like wrestling, but they are not in love with wrestling or would know how to make a wrestling promotion work. Its easy for those people to do what Ted did which is throw a lot of money at something til you either strike gold or go broke, he did both. There are few if any people out there who are like Vince where he is a booker/promoter with deep pockets. You also need engaging talent who want to work hard and have good material. TNA has talent, don't be fooled by the IWC bashing. Its just they don't use it well. ROH has from what I understand good talent and some ok stories, but they are that engaging of a program. You need almost a perfect storm of money, talent, booking and personalities.

WWE is like McDonalds or Microsoft where the name brand means everything. People knows WWE or WWF due to either growing up with it or knowing it by people talking about it for so long. The only way, I see someone beating Vince is he either does an angle where he gets booted off TV which he won't after Edge/Lita Live Sex or he falls ill where HHH and Steph take over, they run it into the ground. As bad as WWE is doing business wise with Over the limits buys starting at 65,0000 in the US and the stock down to one of their lowest points, WWE will still survive for a long time.

(edited by lotjx on 11.6.11 1731)


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redsoxnation
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Since: 24.7.02

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.36
    Originally posted by lotjx

    There are people out there with money to burn like a Ted Turner that like wrestling, but they are not in love with wrestling or would know how to make a wrestling promotion work. Its easy for those people to do what Ted did which is throw a lot of money at something til you either strike gold or go broke, he did both.
    (edited by lotjx on 11.6.11 1731)







Ted's still the largest individual landholder in the United States, so I don't think he's on the side of the road with sunglasses and a tin cup looking for a dime. He just lost a corporate power war, and had Turner Broadcasting remained an independent entity than in all likelihood WCW would still exist today.
In the theoretical world, could TNA challenge Vince? Sure. Also, an untrained chimp could type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Said untrained chimp would also be an improvement on the TNA booking committee, but I digress.
Also, considering the only person who has consistently made money in the wrestling industry in the past 3 decades is Vince McMahon, why would any other individual waste resources becoming involved, especially in a time period where the economy might be entering into another significant collapse?
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.51
    Originally posted by lotjx
    UFC got a number of WWE people, but they will never get them all. They won't get the kids I hope as well as other fans who think UFC having PPVs that cost $50 for a few 3 minutes is just stupid.
Exactly the reason I don't like UFC. I hate how they set up the major fights to be The Biggest Ever Fight In The History Of Everything but they often last three, four minutes tops. I know when I see a WWE PPV, the main event will be fifteen, twenty minutes in length.

    Originally posted by lotjx
    There are people out there with money to burn like a Ted Turner that like wrestling, but they are not in love with wrestling or would know how to make a wrestling promotion work.
Isn't Mark Cuban a huge wrestling fan...and isn't he loaded?

(edited by Oliver on 11.6.11 1937)


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Since: 17.11.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.25
    Originally posted by Oliver
      Originally posted by lotjx
      UFC got a number of WWE people, but they will never get them all. They won't get the kids I hope as well as other fans who think UFC having PPVs that cost $50 for a few 3 minutes is just stupid.
    Exactly the reason I don't like UFC. I hate how they set up the major fights to be The Biggest Ever Fight In The History Of Everything but they often last three, four minutes tops. I know when I see a WWE PPV, the main event will be fifteen, twenty minutes in length.



I disagree. How many real fights have any of you seen in your lifetime last over 3 minutes? What about 2 minutes? Real fights barely last a minute. Anyone who thinks what they see in the UFC or any broadcasted venue is 'real fighting' is deluding themselves.

The UFC and Strikeforce and all those other fighting shows, hell I'll even add in boxing, is not 'real fighting'. It's all 'booked'. Don't fool yourselves. If there are rules governing a fight... it's not a real fight.



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PaulKTF
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Since: 26.5.06

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.00
If TNA can't come close to competing with the WWE after 9 years, and all sorts of talent having come and gone through the promotion; all backed by Bob Carter's money, I don't think any other promotion stands a chance at doing it for a long time to come.


shawnpatrick
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Since: 31.7.07
From: Leesville SC

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.79
WWE is untouchable and makes money every quarter and have almost no debt. Their buy rate on PPV's are about 20 times that of TNA and more on a major PPV.

Vince didn't become king because the others were inept, Vince became king because as Jericho would say "he is the best in the world at what he does".
Oliver
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Since: 20.6.02
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.51
    Originally posted by Cerebus
      Originally posted by Oliver
        Originally posted by lotjx
        UFC got a number of WWE people, but they will never get them all. They won't get the kids I hope as well as other fans who think UFC having PPVs that cost $50 for a few 3 minutes is just stupid.
      Exactly the reason I don't like UFC. I hate how they set up the major fights to be The Biggest Ever Fight In The History Of Everything but they often last three, four minutes tops. I know when I see a WWE PPV, the main event will be fifteen, twenty minutes in length.



    I disagree. How many real fights have any of you seen in your lifetime last over 3 minutes? What about 2 minutes? Real fights barely last a minute. Anyone who thinks what they see in the UFC or any broadcasted venue is 'real fighting' is deluding themselves.

    The UFC and Strikeforce and all those other fighting shows, hell I'll even add in boxing, is not 'real fighting'. It's all 'booked'. Don't fool yourselves. If there are rules governing a fight... it's not a real fight.
I'm not sure I understand your argument.



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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.07
I sit here and wonder - should anyone be trying to beat Vince and WWE? sure, we had regional promotions in the past and as we moved from the regionals to nationals there were a couple of major players to try and be in charge - besides WWF, we had NWA/WCW and ECW, now TNA.

I doubt there will be much competition.

I look at other sports that moved from regional competition to national -

Baseball was regional, and as it coalesced into a national sport there was a major league that competed nationally (with teams from NY to chicago and between) and a lot of regional teams playing games, some very well. a couple of other major competitors arose. The American League became big and fast and National Baseball just kind of swallowed it and combined with it (an Invasion angle that worked, so to speak). Other "major" leagues such as the Federal league, died soon and now we have the majors and a bunch of minors, whose players all want to get to the majors.

Football and Hockey are the same. The NFL was the top dog after moving from University and company regional play, a few small competitors arose, but they crushed them until the money of the AFL rose and they merged with them. Hockey has been the same. The original 6 arose out of club and company play and eventually drove other leagues, like the WHA out of business. Now, they have minor leagues that want to get to the majors.

Wrestling was once a regional sport (Yes, I know, sport isn't always a good word for what they are), but became national. I don't think there is any going back. And I don't think there will again be any serious competition. because that seems to be the way it works. WWE already swallowed its most serious contender - its American League, its AFL, its WHA. Do you foresee a competitor in those sports?



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J. Kyle
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Since: 21.2.02
From: The Land of Aloha

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.05
Nous ne nous pouvons pas sortir.
    Originally posted by Oliver
      Originally posted by Cerebus

      I disagree. How many real fights have any of you seen in your lifetime last over 3 minutes? What about 2 minutes? Real fights barely last a minute. Anyone who thinks what they see in the UFC or any broadcasted venue is 'real fighting' is deluding themselves.

      The UFC and Strikeforce and all those other fighting shows, hell I'll even add in boxing, is not 'real fighting'. It's all 'booked'. Don't fool yourselves. If there are rules governing a fight... it's not a real fight.
    I'm not sure I understand your argument.
I think you're talking apples and oranges while he's talking fruits and vegetables.

There is a Venn Diagram of MMA and Wrestling fans but the circles will never completely overlap. UFC built off the WWE in a lot of ways and may have some fans that used to be casuals for WWE and now are casuals for them but most of the hardcore haven't (and won't) jump ship, but split their time between the two.

As for someone beating Vince, if the stars align yeah, but with WCW gone and TNA a joke I'm more interested in WWE being the best it can be.

(edited by J. Kyle on 11.6.11 1916)


CTX
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Since: 11.5.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
People are quick to talk about all the business/money aspects required for someone to compete with Vince but I think people forget the amount of talent available compared to when WCW was around is miniscule. WCW was built on a completely different talent pool to the WWF and though it took Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash et al for them to finally compete with Vince it was those building blocks of already established talent that allowed them to get to that point in the first place. Those building blocks don't exist in 2011. There aren't any established stars that you can build a new company around that aren't either pushing 40 or have come from WWE to begin with. TNA is the ONLY potential competition Vince has. Not just because they have the best available talent not under contract to Vince, but because they have the ONLY available talent you could build a mainstream wrestling promotion around in 2011. So Ted Turner could come along tomorrow and start up a new wrestling promotion but unless he completely bought out TNA and took on its roster the chances of it succeeding would be zero.



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Scottyflamingo
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Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 409 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
    Originally posted by CTX
    People are quick to talk about all the business/money aspects required for someone to compete with Vince but I think people forget the amount of talent available compared to when WCW was around is miniscule. WCW was built on a completely different talent pool to the WWF and though it took Hogan, Savage, Hall, Nash et al for them to finally compete with Vince it was those building blocks of already established talent that allowed them to get to that point in the first place. Those building blocks don't exist in 2011. There aren't any established stars that you can build a new company around that aren't either pushing 40 or have come from WWE to begin with. TNA is the ONLY potential competition Vince has. Not just because they have the best available talent not under contract to Vince, but because they have the ONLY available talent you could build a mainstream wrestling promotion around in 2011. So Ted Turner could come along tomorrow and start up a new wrestling promotion but unless he completely bought out TNA and took on its roster the chances of it succeeding would be zero.


That is where the "time" portion of the equation comes in. Even if you gave Paul Heyman or someone unlimited funds and they booked perfect angles, it would take several years to approach challenging Vince.
CHAPLOW
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Since: 14.5.04
From: right behind you

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#15 Posted on
In a lot of demographics and settings the internet has supplanted television, and its just the beginning when you consider how young the internet is; how new facebook and youtube are and how much they have already changed mass media.

All that taken into account,
Someone that can use all the tools of the internet to deliver a quality product to a worldwide audience can definitely see themselves in a good spot to compete with Vince.
Maybe not right away, but consider how much the way entertainment is delivered to your eyeballs has changed in the past 10 years... now think about what could be different in 10 more years.

Like lotjx said, you need the perfect storm of factors to even compete with Vince but I think in this day and age the internet can change things quickly.



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Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.71
To state the obvious, one day he (or rather WWE)will fall and it may not have anything to do with competition but changing tastes and/or technology. It is possible someone with a better idea and business model can beat Vince and those people exist but they must want to bother. This is a hard business and you need the passion for it to succeed. Plenty have the passion but not the better idea/business model and/or cash.

When I was in high school/college K-mart and Sears ruled the world. WalMart changed that but that was a corporation developed over decades before it dethroned the king.



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Scottyflamingo
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Since: 23.6.10
From: Auburn, AL

Since last post: 409 days
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.77
I thought AWArulz made a good point with his comparrison to the NFL, NHL, and NBA. Don't know that agree with it, but it was food for thought.

I think that is where the "entertainment" portion of wrestling becomes a factor. With the NFL, the games are real. Therefore, fans want to see the best players. The best players will be in the biggest league. With wrestling, it works more like an entertainment genre than a sport. It can be done a lot of different ways. If you don't have the big names, you can try and sell your product as a different variation (like ROH or ECW).

This is the reason it is such a huge mistake for TNA to model themselves after WWE. By doing that, they are comparing themselves to WWE, and when you do that, you lose. TNA was at its strongerst when it went for something different. Creating a serious women's division worked well for them during the Kong era. Putting the MCMG and Beer Money out there and saying, "Nobody does Tag Wrestling like TNA" was something that even the biggest WWE fan could dispute.
Rudoublesedoublel
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Since: 2.1.02
From: Kentucky - Home of the 8 time NCAA Champ Wildcats

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.26
    Originally posted by Oliver
    Isn't Mark Cuban a huge wrestling fan...and isn't he loaded?

    (edited by Oliver on 11.6.11 1937)


That's always been my "go to" argument as well. If Cuban really wanted to get into the wrestling business he could afford to compete and he'd probably be smart enough to hire good people to run the company. That said, my guess is that the old joke about racing also applies to wrestling ("How do you make a small fortune in ______, start with a large one.").



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Since: 7.10.02
From: the last house on the left

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#19 Posted on
At this point, the only way I could see Vince having any serious competition is if Linda, Shane, Stephanie, and Triple H pooled their resources and started their own seperate wrestling promotion.
SchippeWreck
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Since: 26.3.03
From: Glendale, CA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.84
    Originally posted by Mattitude
    At this point, the only way I could see Vince having any serious competition is if Linda, Shane, Stephanie, and Triple H pooled their resources and started their own seperate wrestling promotion.

Isn't "their resources" Vince's money?



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