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The W - Pro Wrestling - Ironman Match Thoughts
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BigVitoMark
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Since: 10.8.02
From: Queen's University, Canada

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.93
Great match from top to bottom.

Having already seen Meltzer's desperate desire to give away the result of tonight's match I knew Lesnar was winning since Wednesday afternoon. Even still, the match was great to watch and certainly didn't seem like 60 minutes. Sure there was some stalling, but in a match this long you almost have to have that...plus it fit in the context of the story of the match that Lesnar was taking the cheap way all the way through.

Cole and (especially) Tazz did a good job on commentary discussing the strategy involved in a 60 minute match and getting over the different approaches of the two wrestlers (Lesnar conceding the early DQ in order take Kurt out and maybe get a couple falls back for it, Angle's submission holds taking a stronger effect later in the match). And above all else...a clean finish? That I could not believe. I kept waiting for either Vince or Undertaker to come out and ruin it but it never happened...and I couldn't have been happier.


Between a great iron match, a very good tag title match, and the advance for next week (Mysterio vs. Tajiri...Eddie vs. Cena is up as well, right?), Smackdown did a great job with tonight's show. Delivering a great show for this week's viewers AND giving them a resaon to come back next week? What a novel idea...
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fuelinjected
Banger








Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
What a great match. I also saw that little card change/match spoiler on the Observer site but seeing as he reported a few weeks ago that Lesnar/Undertaker for the WWE Title was the scheduled Main Event for No Mercy, I wasn't too dissapointed knowing that Lesnar won.

There was great drama in that match regardless of knowing the outcome in advance. The UPN will give us extra time was a nice touch. The falls during the break was also a nice touch.

The tag opener was great as was the tag title switch. Probably opening the door for Cena to take the US Title from Eddy and continue some dissension between Eddy and Chavo.
Firecracker
Salami








Since: 26.6.02
From: Miami, FL

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
That was a GREAT match. I agree with BigVito, the announcers really did a good job in getting over the psychology and mindsets of Brock and Kurt - but that was just some awesome wrestling. Kurt with the F5 to Lesnar was impressive, as was his moonsault - definitely one of the best and smoothest in the business. I thought Brock would tap out at the end right after the final bell rung, but still, a great finish to a terrific match.



Yo, it's me, it's me, it's (points to self) P-A-B!
InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.74
Even though they had the counter running, I checked the time at one point, expecting the match to be half over or so and realized there was still 50 minutes to go. I'll give Brock credit, he did a good job selling the knee, but since when did you have to actually have a firm grip on the rope in order to break a submission? Seems to me like the ref should have immediately broken the ankle lock both times that Brock grabbed the rope and Kurt immediately yanked him away.

Of all the times for Tazz to entirely drop the comedy shtick and just call a match seriously, he had to do it in one of the most boring matches the history of Smackdown. I was praying for a Poker Face runin, or at least a picture-in-picture showing a Big Show match.

Velocity doesn't look very promising, either. Matt & Shannon weren't in their wrestling clothes. Spanky is out, as well. I couldn't tell if Funaki was in his gear or not, but I'm not sure there's a difference, either. I'm hoping the Bashams were suited up to go against Funaki & Ultimo. Looks like Orlando Jordan will be on Velocity this week as well. North Carolina isn't that far from Memphis, maybe they'll bring Poker Face in once again to save the show.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
Velocity
Big Show vs. Murray Happer & Matt Houston
Matt Hardy vs. Joey Matthews
Billy Kidman vs. Shannon Moore
Orlando Jordan vs. Chuck Palumbo



InVerse
Bierwurst








Since: 26.8.02

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.74
I stand corrected, then. Is Joey Matthews one of the OMEGA guys? Seem to recall hearing that name somewhere before..
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
I'm pretty sure Matthews is an OMEGA guy.

Hardy/Matthews and Kidman/Moore should be good. I like Palumbo, but pairing him up w/ Jordan isn't going to produce a good match. Big Show match = squash.

Knoble vs. Kendo Ka Shin was a dark match, and said to be pretty good. I'd take that over the Big Show match.



WaxFish
Longanisa








Since: 22.9.02
From: New Mexico

Since last post: 3575 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.55
Ironman match was a killer. Angle remains the most entertaining wrestler in the company.

Great story and great drama in the match. The final 20 minutes were phenomenal. Angle doing the double axehandle, then the missile dropkick, then the moonsault, then the belly to belly off the top rope!

The final seconds were great, because for the first time I can EVER remember, the WWE genuinely surprised me with the finish.

I'd rank this match 2nd best of the year so far, right behind Angle/Benoit at the Royal Rumble.
Shem the Penman
Toulouse








Since: 16.1.02
From: The Off-Center of the Universe (aka Philadelphia)

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.53
It was worth it just to see Kurt whip the missile dropkick out of his ass. I wish he -- and Brock, for that matter -- had done a bit more of that kind of varied offense and a bit less of the suplexamania. (Two champion amateur wrestlers, and almost no matwork?) If I went back and counted the number of Germans and release Germans thrown during this match, it'd probably be around 20.

Great match, nonetheless. Brock was terrific in the early going, really working hard to angry up the crowd with his stalling and cheapshots, and between them they kept the crowd into it all the way, no mean feat. And it was clean except for the one ref bump, which is forgivable given how hard they worked the rest of the hour.



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The instant obsolesence is why I became a writer. The rate of punctuation in a sentence doesn't double every 18 friggin' months, and you never have some 22-year-old looming over your shoulder, shaking his head, saying "dude... you're still using adverbs...?"

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Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.39
I don't know. It was a very good match, but it wasn't nearly as good as the other two WWE Iron Man matches. Here are the things that really bothered me...

1. Nothing new. They did nothing to make the match special, it was just a Kurt Angle/Brock Lesner match like any other, but a few minutes longer. The only spot I'll remember is the moonsault, but that's not exactly new either.
2. The ending was terrible. Kurt "losing out" there at the end was awful. Not because I feel bad for Kurt the character, but because I feel bad for Kurt the guy. Just when he gets some momentum as champion they kill him.
3. The constant shilling for "overtime". Yeah, it added a little bit of suspense, but it added false expectations too. So when the match ended limply with Brock not tapping out (which was not surprising once Angle got locked in), it just made me pissed that they bothered to continually shill the overtime section.
4. Even if Kurt Angle would have won, he wouldn't have won. His first win was a DQ, an admittedly neat spot for Lesner, but now Angle only really had 3 victories, which is pretty weak considering.
5. For all that build, it wasn't even a blowoff match. Brock Lesner (the heel) completely put away the face, but it wasn't a blowoff, because Kurt looked plucky at the end. So that means MORE Brock/Kurt postureing and feuding. I'm sick of this feud. Couldn't somebody else main event? Like...Kanyon? At least HHH fights somebody else new every other month.

The rest of the show felt really flat to me as well...I don't know. I was hoping for something really special, and I got something really...blah.



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Minnesota Vikings: 2-0 (That's a bit more like it. Good game all around...Though they shouldn't have let Chicago get their hopes up.)
TheCheat
Tocino








Since: 8.7.03
From: Strongbadia

Since last post: 3302 days
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#11 Posted on
I personally loved the Iron Man match, and while I didn't get to see the rest of the show (had to help cheer up a friend who was having a really bad day), I don't see how anything but running Al Snow Jobs to Washed-Up Loser in a loop for the first 60 minutes could have made this anything but a good show. I mean, I was able to predict what the ending would be (either overtime or a clock-screwjob on Angle), but I was still screaming "TAP, DAMMIT! TAP! TAP! TAP!" for the last 20 seconds. As much as I love Lesner, I was cheering Angle all the way. It's a rare moment when I truly mark out like that ... kudos to both Lesner and Angle for keeping the intensity up for the full 60 minutes and giving us probably the best free-TV match I've seen all year!

And Excalibur ... chill, dude, they'll figure out some way to wrap it up or at least put it on the backburner before long, if the main event of No Mercy is any indication. Admittedly, we already did the whole Taker/Brock thing last year about this time ...



"I said consummate V's! CONSUMMATE!" - Strong Bad
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.15
    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    1. Nothing new. They did nothing to make the match special, it was just a Kurt Angle/Brock Lesner match like any other, but a few minutes longer. The only spot I'll remember is the moonsault, but that's not exactly new either.



I sort of agree with you there. I mean, they even mentioned that there's only been two of these matches in recent (7 years?) WWE history, and then the first fall that they do is a rip-off of the one where the heel gets DQ'd on purpose to get a few quick falls right after and get the lead.

    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    3. The constant shilling for "overtime". Yeah, it added a little bit of suspense, but it added false expectations too. So when the match ended limply with Brock not tapping out (which was not surprising once Angle got locked in), it just made me pissed that they bothered to continually shill the overtime section.



Yeah, but at around the 55min mark, I was starting to look at the clock and figuring "Well, the ending has to be coming up pretty quick" already figuring in 'celebration time' and everything. When the main event of RAW starts, I go to the can until 10:04 because I know they're just killing time until that point. Shilling the overtime was good for making me think twice about that.

    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    4. Even if Kurt Angle would have won, he wouldn't have won. His first win was a DQ, an admittedly neat spot for Lesner, but now Angle only really had 3 victories, which is pretty weak considering.



But the only reason that Brock got the next three falls is that Kurt was so dead from the chair shots (which would normally end the match because of their 'brutality') that Brock is lucky that the rules allow for that sort of thing. I think that having Brock hide from Kurt for so much of the match made it clear in fan's eyes that Kurt was definately the dominant of the two wrestlers, and that Brock had to cheat and break every rule there was to try to use the Iron Man rules to sneak his way into the title.


    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    So that means MORE Brock/Kurt postureing and feuding. I'm sick of this feud. Couldn't somebody else main event? Like...Kanyon?


I'm not sure if that's sarcastic or not, since I can't see anyone thinking that Kanyon would be ready to be main event player for at least a couple years, and then only if they pushed the God-loving shit out of him until then. He's at about Spike Dudley's level so far as standing with the fans goes, and that's not because he's been gone for so long, it's because until they figure out how to get people to connect with him, he's like Charlie and Shelten (sp) were before they became 'Team Angle'.

I wouldn't mind Cena being up in the championship area, and now that the champion is a heel, we'll give Brock his first feud as the "Give me someone to squash to show off that I'm the champion" (and from the WWE website it looks like the squashee is going to be the Undertaker, which shouldn't get too many complaints around here) and then one face turn later we can do Cena/Brock at an upcoming Smackdown PPV.


Tribal Prophet



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Evil Antler God
Potato korv








Since: 10.1.02

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.83
That match was just beautifully put together. I marked like hell when Brock apparently was going for ANOTHER disqualification/set of cheap falls with the steps towards the very end

Best match I've seen all year, easily



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- Excalibur05
EddieBurkett
Boudin blanc








Since: 3.1.02
From: GA in person, NJ in heart

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.37
    Originally posted by Excalibur05
    4. Even if Kurt Angle would have won, he wouldn't have won. His first win was a DQ, an admittedly neat spot for Lesner, but now Angle only really had 3 victories, which is pretty weak considering.



Don't forget that Kurt got a pinfall on Brock (after an Angle slam, IIRC) while the ref was out, so that should negate the DQ and give Kurt his fourth *legitimate* victory.


Brock's stalling at the beginning annoyed me, and not in the good way. Instead of thinking, "Get in the ring, you chickenshit!", I was thinking, "Brock, you and Kurt are better than this. Why aren't you going for the full sixty?" I understand the point of it, but it seemed weak to me.

Also, I agree with Shem about varying the offense and busting out some matwork instead of suplexing the hell out of each other. They did about as many suplexes in that hour as Steiner does in a twenty minute match.

They should play up Kurt being upset with himself for tapping to the anklelock early on. If he had fought his way out instead of losing the point, the match would have gone to overtime.

Good match, but I can't help but wonder if I wouldn't have liked it more if I hadn't accidentally been spoiled.

(edited by EddieBurkett on 19.9.03 0146)


Low tide for the time being.
Excalibur05
Knackwurst








Since: 19.1.02
From: Minnesota

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.39
    Originally posted by TheCheat
    And Excalibur ... chill, dude, they'll figure out some way to wrap it up or at least put it on the backburner before long, if the main event of No Mercy is any indication. Admittedly, we already did the whole Taker/Brock thing last year about this time ...


I'm reasonably chilled, I'm just tired of these two feuding. SummerSlam was as good a time for them to wrap this up as any.

    Originally posted by Tribal Prophet
    I'm not sure if that's sarcastic or not, since I can't see anyone thinking that Kanyon would be ready to be main event player for at least a couple years, and then only if they pushed the God-loving shit out of him until then.


Yes, that was laced with sarcasm to show the extent of my desire to see anybody other than one of these two in a main event spot any time soon.







Wisconsin Badgers: 2-1 (Well...Obviously...Casino Management Majors make good football players....)


Minnesota Vikings: 2-0 (That's a bit more like it. Good game all around...Though they shouldn't have let Chicago get their hopes up.)
Torchslasher
Knackwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: New F'n Jersey

Since last post: 2 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.44
I thought Angle pulling out the F5 on the outside to the ringpost (and having Cole actually note the time months ago Lesnar did it to Angle) was a great, "new" spot (certainly more special than a moonsault). Overall, the match was the second best match behind Angle/Benoit of this year.

Concerning the main event scene, Brock/Angle is so much more exciting than Brock/Big Show or Angle/Big Show. I think going back to Brock/Taker is a mistake, but as long as Taker jobs, I'll be happy.

BTW, Joey Matthews usually tags with Christian York. They wrestled in ECW toward the end, and stayed in independents in the Northeast. They wrestled for 3PW recently as well. I remember seeing Matthews in a dark match at the last Raw show in Philly, so I'm definitely delighted to see him get a shot on Velocity. I always thought he was a better worker than York anyways.



Molly, Stacy and Daffney all in WWE? I suddenly lost all my will to complain about anything regarding the WWE. Hope I don't lose my street cred for this.

TS, the greatest Wiener rated 6.1554 ever to live!! Oops, I mean 5.5...4.5?? Oh, dammit! I guess Notorious FAB was right.
Freeway
Scrapple








Since: 3.1.02
From: Calgary

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.96
I had to work tonight, so I set the VCR timer to tape SmackDown, then Survivor. So, I set the timer for SmackDown (5pm to 7:02pm MT),then Survivor (9pm to 10:30pm)...and the f*cking thing cut off the last MINUTE of the Iron Man Match. Goddamn it.

Still, it was AWESOME. Excellent psychology, and it showed that WRESTLING is the reason people watch SmackDown.

How the hell are they gonna top this?



My Calgary Flames are currently tied for first place overall with a record of 0-0-0-0. It's training camp, but it's a start, right?
Amazing Telephone
Salami








Since: 12.12.02
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Since last post: 237 days
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.55
    Originally posted by Freeway420
    How the hell are they gonna top this?

They're going to have their next match in a shark tank. With real live sharks! And the only way to win is to stuff the other guy down the mouth of a shark, and then pin the shark.



Anyway. As has already been said, this was easily one of the best matches of the year. At times it tested my suspension of disbelief -- and here I am thinking of the three or four times Kurt could have just let Brock get counted out, but instead rolled out like a moron -- but we got a solid hour of nothin' but quality wrestling and that makes me a very happy panda indeed.

I loved the pre-match rundown and analysis -- I wish they did that sort of thing more often. The whole build-up was just very well done, as was the job the commentators did the whole night (although they could have picked up on Brock's opening strategy a little faster, seriously -- two minutes later Tazz goes "ohhhh... I get what he's doing" and I go "argh").

As long as we're talking about SmackDown... I know Shelton Benjamin was injured going in, but Haas is okay, right? Because that bump near the end looked very, very nasty.

At any rate, this may be the bestest show we've had all year. It's this sort of thing that makes RAW look really depressing. RAW rarely even has ten minute matches.
Notorious F.A.B.
Pepperoni








Since: 4.2.02
From: Dudleyville's Gay Ghetto

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
I've been pretty disappointed with all three of Angle and Lesnar's matches. I don't know what it is. The matches just don't click with me. Maybe I got my expectations too high.

Nothing can touch Angle / Benoit.



I hope HHH gets you fired.
MARTYEWR
Kishke








Since: 15.10.02

Since last post: 260 days
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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
    Originally posted by Amazing Telephone
      Originally posted by Freeway420
      How the hell are they gonna top this?

    They're going to have their next match in a shark tank. With real live sharks! And the only way to win is to stuff the other guy down the mouth of a shark, and then pin the shark.


And wouldn't THAT be a hoot?

Anyway, I loved the match. While the match itself was similar to their other matches, I like how they tried to differentiate it from the other Iron Man matches. The idea, it seemed from my view, was to get Brock Lesnar more over than Kurt Angle. I still think they're over-pushing Lesnar too hard, but I can perfectly see why the booked the match the way they did.




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Extreme Warfare Revenge

Wiener Of The Day: Tuesday, March 4, 2003

"Because I'm the man, and the man's the man, and that's just the way it is!" -- Eric Foreman, That 70s Show
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Emma, I was considering started a thread about this same issue. I also hate the way he stops his offense and does the Spinnaroonie in the middle of the match. I wish he would go back to using it the same way he used to use it in WCW.
Related threads: Iron Man Match in progress - your WWE SMACKDOWN WORKRATE REPORT-9/11/2003! - Smackdown! (the short) 9-11-03 - More...
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