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The W - Current Events & Politics - Interesting take on Diversity
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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
From the Chronicle of Higher Education(which you need a subscription for: I got this from here) on a Hispanic Student talking about diversity and the Bakke case:

At a news conference held soon after Michigan's announcement, several leaders of student groups on the campus said they feared that young applicants might have difficulty writing essays that adequately reflected the impact of their race or ethnicity on their lives, and that minority enrollments would decline as a result.

Ricardo Valle, a senior who is a spokesman for a student group called La Voz Latina, said that, before college, “I did not know what diversity was or how to interpret my experiences as a Latino youth.”


Isn't that special.

(edited by Grimis on 3.9.03 0809)


"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
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OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#2 Posted on
I'm sorry, Grimis. I've read this a few times now and I can't for the life of me figure out what you're outraged about this time.



Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
before college, “I did not know what diversity was or how to interpret my experiences as a Latino youth.”

So the point is that colleges manufacture racial diversity(or disharmony depending on your opinion).





"Each time I've met Huffington, I wondered if she was not somehow the long-lost daughter of Madame Nicolai Ceaucescu, or a genetic cross between Martha Stewart and Count Dracula. Had this Greek-born harpy lived in medieval times, she would have been sewn up in a bag with a rooster and two snakes and thrown into the nearest river."
-- Eric Margolis, Toronto Star
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#4 Posted on
I just find it amusing that the word "disharmony" is used, when I went to one of the more diverse schools in the country, yet we also came out as the happiest students in the country. I guess we didn't get the memo that all the white students were supposed to be outraged about something or other.





She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

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ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 46 days
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#5 Posted on
    Originally posted by spf2119
    I just find it amusing that the word "disharmony" is used, when I went to one of the more diverse schools in the country, yet we also came out as the happiest students in the country. I guess we didn't get the memo that all the white students were supposed to be outraged about something or other.




Just out of curiosity, how the hell did you quantify that?(being the happiest students in the country)

Also, aren't you just justifying Grimis's point about manufactured "disharmony" when you point out that one of the more diverse schools in the country was also among the happiest?

I do find the Grimis's post interesting, that the fact that they assumed that race had enough impact on every student's life that it is worthy of an essay, while finding out that many students are having trouble writing such an essay.



Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 9 days
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#6 Posted on
    Originally posted by Grimis
    before college, “I did not know what diversity was or how to interpret my experiences as a Latino youth.”

    So the point is that colleges manufacture racial diversity(or disharmony depending on your opinion).




So because someone does not know "how to interpret" something, it isn't an issue? Or it's being "manufactured"?

Funny, but I didn't know how to interpet an orchestral score before I went to school, and that didn't mean "musical diversity" didn't exist.

I thought the whole purpose of goign to college was to learn stuff you didn't already know.




"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Corajudo
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

Since last post: 108 days
Last activity: 3 days
#7 Posted on
    Originally posted by spf2119
    I just find it amusing that the word "disharmony" is used, when I went to one of the more diverse schools in the country, yet we also came out as the happiest students in the country. I guess we didn't get the memo that all the white students were supposed to be outraged about something or other.




You missed a couple of other things--the irony in Grimis' post (as pointed out by ges) and that the white students are not supposed to be the ones outraged (they're the exploiters).

It reminds me of a good friend of mine that I grew up with. Her parents were born in China, while she was born and raised here. She went to Yale, and majored in Asian Studies. Anyways, when she returned after her first year, she was an angry Asian American victim of an oppressive Western society. I had to point out to her that she grew up in an upper middle class family (her father was a professor at the University of Houston and her mom also worked, but I don't remember what she did) and was attending one of the most prestigious schools in the world that cost around $30k a year. So, the idea of her as a victim made, and continues to make, me laugh. Especially if you compare her to the 'true' Chinese victims (most of whom are buried in unmarked graves in China).
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#8 Posted on
Ges: I'm going by the latest Princeton Review rankings, where DePaul University came in #1 for happiest students and #18 for most diverse student body.

And regarding Grimis's post, I do not feel that there is manufacturing at work here. For most students, the first place where they are ever going to be put in an ethnically/socially/economically diverse situation is when they go away to college. Most of us grow up in fairly homogeneous situations where the people around us tend to be roughly our socioeconomic peers. So no, the fact that only once removed from his original circumstances might a student be able to contextualize them within the broader American framework does not strike me as egregious or proof of some great conspiracy to...well I'm not really sure exactly what they're supposed to be trying to do. I guess making people rabidly pro-inclusion or something. Oh wait, I think is the "white people are now having it bad" argument again. I guess I was too busy enjoying the fruits of my racial upbringing to notice that now I'm the oppressed one

I find myself wondering, since this is at least the 8th or 9th article on college and race that the cons on the board have posted, is this an issue that really is that powerfully moving to you? Or is this simply a case of "well, we have all of Washington, most of the states, most of the school boards, most of the country sees nothing wrong with a giant stone slab of the 10 commandments in Federal Court...what's left for us? Colleges, we haven't assimilated them yet!" Because while I don't feel particularly oppressed as a white guy these days, as a non-religious person of liberal political bent, I sure feel like a hunted species in this country.




She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by spf2119
    I find myself wondering, since this is at least the 8th or 9th article on college and race that the cons on the board have posted, is this an issue that really is that powerfully moving to you?

Yes. When I was in college, our school "Multicultural Director" called me a racist because I was white and questioned the need for all of this crap. I had a professor call me a racist because I wrote a commentary questioning the need for black history month. So I've been there and done that. Any time a college starts to "enlighten" people about "diversity" it usually means some sort of indoctrination program that makes everybody hate on whitey.



"If this cruel, loudmouth extremist is the cream of the Democratic crop, next November's going to make the 1984 election look like a squeaker."
--House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) on Howard Dean
Leroy
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Since: 7.2.02

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#10 Posted on
    Originally posted by spf2119

    Because while I don't feel particularly oppressed as a white guy these days, as a non-religious person of liberal political bent, I sure feel like a hunted species in this country.


That's because "white people" aren't oppressed. But a lot of folks don't want to deal with the fact that there are serious racial inequlitites in this country. And when you start pointing them out, you get this ridiculously defensive reaction - "So it's all about hating white people!" - which is just a load of bullshit.

What the quote from the article is pointing out is that diversity is a complicated issue - that it's not just about white-Black, white-Hispanic, white-Asian, etc. It's also about gender, class, sexual orientation, etc - a wide variety of issues. Hell, it's even about how people relate to their own communities. In fact, white people have very little to do with it (with the only exception being that we still hold most of the cards).

But you're not supposed to talk about any of this stuff. You're just supposed to pretend that everyone is equal, and everything is as its should be, even when there's still a significant amount of institutionalized discrimination in our society.

To their credit, conservatives are great at blurring the issues. They can use catch phreases like "indoctrination program" to create some fictional conspiracy, and most liberals will spend so much time trying defend themselves that they forget the important issues.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Reverend J Shaft
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Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#11 Posted on
    Originally posted by Leroy
    But you're not supposed to talk about any of this stuff. You're just supposed to pretend that everyone is equal, and everything is as its should be, even when there's still a significant amount of institutionalized discrimination in our society.


I whole-heartedly agree. Thanks to that decision, there is now institutionalized discrimination against white applicants at the Univ. of Michigan. But I'm going to talk about it and not just "pretend that everyone is equal".


    Originally posted by Leroy


    To their credit, conservatives are great at blurring the issues.


Speaking of discrimination...

    Originally posted by Leroy
    They can use catch phreases like "indoctrination program" to create some fictional conspiracy,


Or catch phrases like "affirmative action", eh?
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Leroy
    To their credit, conservatives are great at blurring the issues.

I guess then it's inapproriate to talk about liberals ignoring racism against whites in order to accuse of whites of racism against other minorities.

Racism in any form is evil. I just wish the hardcore liberals would understand that.



"If this cruel, loudmouth extremist is the cream of the Democratic crop, next November's going to make the 1984 election look like a squeaker."
--House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) on Howard Dean
ges7184
Lap cheong








Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

Since last post: 46 days
Last activity: 1 hour
#13 Posted on
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Ges: I'm going by the latest Princeton Review rankings, where DePaul University came in #1 for happiest students and #18 for most diverse student body.



So wouldn't the next question be, how the hell did Princeton Review quantify that?

Look, Princeton Review is as bad as VH-1 about making lists. They make lists for top party schools, top drinking schools, etc. anything they can make a list for they will. Apparently people find these kind of lists interesting. But just because somebody makes a list doesn't mean you should put much stock into it. I find any attempt to rank school happiness to be asinine (like almost all Princeton Review lists, heck pretty much like all lists period). I'll stick to my theory that one school is probably just about as happy as the other.

    Originally posted by spf2119
    And regarding Grimis's post, I do not feel that there is manufacturing at work here. For most students, the first place where they are ever going to be put in an ethnically/socially/economically diverse situation is when they go away to college. Most of us grow up in fairly homogeneous situations where the people around us tend to be roughly our socioeconomic peers. So no, the fact that only once removed from his original circumstances might a student be able to contextualize them within the broader American framework does not strike me as egregious or proof of some great conspiracy to...well I'm not really sure exactly what they're supposed to be trying to do. I guess making people rabidly pro-inclusion or something. Oh wait, I think is the "white people are now having it bad" argument again. I guess I was too busy enjoying the fruits of my racial upbringing to notice that now I'm the oppressed one


I don't know about where you went to high school, but in the south, segregation ended many years ago. We all go to school together now! And in rural areas, there usually is A school you go to. Inside that school, you will see the type of diversity you are talking about. (w/ perhaps the exception of ethnic diversity, there is only the occasional exchange student. However, when we talk about diversity in this nation, 9 times out of 10 we are referring to it as it relates to African-Americans.) All the rich whities don't go to one school, while the poor whites go to another, while the rich black kids go to yet another school,etc...
(Big cities I would guess would have more neighborhood type schools, where perhaps the economic diversity would be less. Of course, where you have busing policies implemented, this would become irrelevant.)

But all that is irrelevent, the point is that the assumption was made by academia in Michigan that race would have an impact on EVERY student's life. Everyone would have some great story to tell about how they were held back by the MAN and how they overcame some huge obstacle. And apparently there is fear that this is not the case, and as such, minority enrollment may actually be held back by such a requirement (writing an essay about such experiences). In which case, the first racial obstacle may be one implemented by those who are suppose to be sensitive to such issues.

    Originally posted by spf2119
    ...what's left for us? Colleges, we haven't assimilated them yet!" Because while I don't feel particularly oppressed as a white guy these days, as a non-religious person of liberal political bent, I sure feel like a hunted species in this country.


I assume this was said in jest. Because if you truly feel oppressed by a post on a silly wrestling message board, then you don't have much grasp on the concept of oppression.




Everything that is wrong in this world can be blamed on Freddie Prinze Jr.
spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#14 Posted on
Ges:

Regarding lists, I buy it also due simply to anecdotal evidence. Most everyone I knew seemed fairly content at my school. The only people who were ever up in arms really about things there were the few militants on either side of the political fence who would never be happy about anything. But then most of my friends were at U. of Chicago, who are all miserable folks.

Regarding school diversity: I am not just referring to race. My school was quite mixed due to quirks in the district boundary lines, but most of the suburban Chicago schools tend to be homogeneous, reflecting the geographic pool from which they're drawn. The next high school over for instance has 96% white students, and 0% below the poverty line. Perhaps in a more rural area you might get greater mixing of socioeconomic groups, but generally in suburban areas money is the great equalizer. Your school might have people of all races in it, but they're likely all going to be of the same financial strata. You don't see a lot of poor kids at Neaqua Valley or New Trier, and there's not a lot of rich kids at Farragut.

As for the essay in question, whether or not the essay is a good thing to use for admissions is somewhat tangential to the greater question of whether or not diversity is something colleges ought to encourage. For while some see that answer the students gave as "manufacturing diversity" I see "my understanding of the world was more narrow before I came to college than after."

And re: the oppression comment, there's a grain of truth in it. I do feel that the nation is making a massive turn rightward and churchward. That's not due to the message board, but to the daily news. I feel like free thought is actively discouraged and mocked, that a lack of piety is suddenly unamerican, and that the intention of the Bill of Rights is being actively twisted by people with what I find to be negative designs for this country.

However, that said, I do like to overstate things, if only in the hopes of drawing an extra indignant response. Few things amuse me more than the mental picture I have in my head of Grimis (whom I have decided to picture as the twin brother of Alex P. Keaton) yelling at the screen and talking to his framed Reagan (as opposed to Nixon...far too liberal he was) photo saying "Can you believe this shit?!" I have to amuse myself because we're pissants shouting into the empty canyons, getting all twisted up at each other yet totally powerless in the grand scheme of things. At least I assume we are...perhaps someone here is a U.S. Senator or something in disguise.





She was worth 800 miles driving to see her play - Brenda Weiler

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CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネケポăƒȘă‚č

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
    Originally posted by spf2119
    However, that said, I do like to overstate things, if only in the hopes of drawing an extra indignant response.
Gee, thanks.



©CRZ
Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by spf2119
    Few things amuse me more than the mental picture I have in my head of Grimis (whom I have decided to picture as the twin brother of Alex P. Keaton) yelling at the screen and talking to his framed Reagan (as opposed to Nixon...far too liberal he was) photo saying "Can you believe this shit?!"

You won't believe the fact that it took me five minutes to type this because I was laughing so hard...



"If this cruel, loudmouth extremist is the cream of the Democratic crop, next November's going to make the 1984 election look like a squeaker."
--House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) on Howard Dean
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

Since last post: 9 days
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#17 Posted on
    Originally posted by Reverend J Shaft
    I whole-heartedly agree. Thanks to that decision, there is now institutionalized discrimination against white applicants at the Univ. of Michigan. But I'm going to talk about it and not just "pretend that everyone is equal".


Affirmative action isn't the issue... but like I said, conservatives love to talk about things other than real discrimination.

    Originally posted by Grimis

    I guess then it's inapproriate to talk about liberals ignoring racism against whites in order to accuse of whites of racism against other minorities.


If you all spent as much time complaining about the condition of minorities as you do white people (who typically have it much better off), we would not need things like affirmative action. Hell, even most minorities agree affirmative action isn't perfect - but it's better than nothing.

Start complain about Blacks earning a third less, on average, then whites. Hell, the next time a white guy gets shot 41 times for holding up his wallet, or gets sodimized with a plunger in a bathroom by the police - then I'll start taking you seriously.

But if all you're gonna do is complain about how "poor whitey can't get into law school", then there's no reason to believe you are serious at all about racism.



"It's hard to be a prophet and still make a profit."
- Da Bush Babees

"Finally, a candidate who can explain the current administration's position on civil liberties in the original German."
- Bill Maher on Arnold Schwarzenneger

"You know, I'm a follower of American politics."
- President George W. Bush, 8 Aug 2003
Grimis
Scrapple








Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

Since last post: 1271 days
Last activity: 1067 days
#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.29
    Originally posted by Leroy
    Start complain about Blacks earning a third less, on average, then whites. Hell, the next time a white guy gets shot 41 times for holding up his wallet, or gets sodimized with a plunger in a bathroom by the police - then I'll start taking you seriously.

Now why am I supposed to take you seriously when you point out these completely ridiculous ascertations that this is the norm(it's not) while liberals ignore the fact that the majority of violent crime in this country is black-on-black.

Of course, I guess that's the white man's fault too.



"If this cruel, loudmouth extremist is the cream of the Democratic crop, next November's going to make the 1984 election look like a squeaker."
--House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) on Howard Dean
Reverend J Shaft
Liverwurst








Since: 25.6.03
From: Home of The Big House

Since last post: 15 days
Last activity: 10 hours
#19 Posted on
    Originally posted by Leroy
    Affirmative action isn't the issue... but like I said, conservatives love to talk about things other than real discrimination.


I disagree. The article that Grimis quoted was talking about exactly that. And don't lump me in to some group, hypocrite.

    Originally posted by Leroy
    What the quote from the article is pointing out is that diversity is a complicated issue - that it's not just about white-Black, white-Hispanic, white-Asian, etc. It's also about gender, class, sexual orientation, etc - a wide variety of issues.


    Originally posted by Leroy
    Start complain about Blacks earning a third less, on average, then whites. Hell, the next time a white guy gets shot 41 times for holding up his wallet, or gets sodimized with a plunger in a bathroom by the police - then I'll start taking you seriously.



Are you concerned with any other issues besides "white-Black"? What about Asians? Do they earn a third less than whites? What about other minorities? What about women? What about poverty-stricken people? Don't you care about them?

    Originally posted by Leroy
    Hell, even most minorities agree affirmative action isn't perfect - but it's better than nothing.


That statement is so ridiculous... I don't even know how to respond.

(edited by Reverend J Shaft on 4.9.03 1523)
CRZ
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Since: 9.12.01
From: ミネケポăƒȘă‚č

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.65
This whole THREAD is ridiculous. I blame Leroy mostly, for being the first person in the thread to play the "liberals vs. conservatives" card, then compounding it with a "you all" card, thus ensuring that absolutely no good could come out of continued discussion. Of course, I also have to thank Shaft and Grimis for swallowing the bait. So here we are. KA-THUNK



©CRZ
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