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The W - Pro Wrestling - Interesting Commentary from Lance Storm concerning the Divas
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InVerse
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Since: 26.8.02

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#1 Posted on
Lance Storm posted a commentary yesterday that I think a lot of people here will find interesting.

First of all, I was interested to find out that Lance has been a big part of training the Raw women. Seems like Fit Finley hasn't had to do it all on his own.

Secondly, he actually seems surprised to discover that women's wrestling still isn't getting the respect it deserves. It's been brought up many times around here that even though the women have went from being nothing more than eye candy to working their asses off, casual fans still ignore them.

What is it going to take to put the women's division over legitimately? I've seen it said that they need a big gimmick match, Hell in a Cell or a ladder match of some sort, but I don't think that's it. I think what they need is a long term angle billed on the same level as the current main events. Has a women's angle ever recieved it's own video package, other than as a small part of a package hyping a PPV? The last couple of weeks, they've started doing commercials hyping upcoming matches, why not build up a women's match that can be hyped the same way? The WWE has come a long way in how they treat the women, but they still don't give the women's division the respect the men's division receives.

Anybody else have any thoughts or suggestions?
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fuelinjected
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Since: 12.10.02
From: Canada

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.15
Lance says it best when he says, "why donít you try actually watching one of the Diva matches and giving it a chance. Itís not just about the puppies, anymore".

I think people just go in with their pre-conceived notions and biases about what they're going to see and are looking for failure. They're waiting for any slight misstep or hint at a botched spot so they can fulfill their pre-conceived notion that the women's matches on RAW are horrible. They're picking the matches apart way more then any male matches, especially involving wrestlers of similar experience level as the women.

The people that can give it a chance seem to like the matches for what they are.

The writers seem to go hot and cold on the division as far as the storylines in gets. Right now things seem to be picking up again with the Molly/Gail angle and Victoria's Heat work. It gets the same attention as most of the undercard/midcard stuff in WWE which is inconsistant at best. That's more a problem with the writers not paying much attention to the underneath stuff then anything to do with the performers.
SirBubNorm
Salami








Since: 2.1.02
From: Under the table

Since last post: 3528 days
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#3 Posted on
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Lance says it best when he says, "why donít you try actually watching one of the Diva matches and giving it a chance. Itís not just about the puppies, anymore".

    I think people just go in with their pre-conceived notions and biases about what they're going to see and are looking for failure.


Jerry Lawler certainly isn't helping there either. If they (the WWE) are wanting us to take it seriously, they can't have their commentators not taking it seriously...

The other thing they need to do is get someone besides Trish as a consistent face. Hasn't the model with Trish been have her get completely destroyed, be gone for a week or two selling the injury, then take a month or two to get the title (or win) back? Other than when Ivory looked to have a shot at getting the belt, that's pretty much been the story line with the women for the past six to eight months...



Dilbert's Words Of Wisdom: You've just got to accept the fact that some days you're the pigeon, and others you're the statue.
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Since: 11.1.02
From: Houston

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#4 Posted on
Lance's repeat use of "LOL" kinda scares me a little...




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dskillz
Landjager








Since: 2.1.02
From: Houston Texas

Since last post: 3135 days
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#5 Posted on
The women's division needs an angle tied to the men to kick start it. When Steph/Trish had their match, it was part of the Angle/HHH angle so fans actually paid attention to it. The fact is that the women's division just has them fighting for a belt that means nothing. No real angle, just "I must beat you." That is it, no back story, no nothing really. They need a reason to be upset with each other, not just for that worthless belt. The best way to accomplish that is to spin off a women's match from a men's fued.



January 4th 1999 - The day WCW injected itself with 10 gallons of Liquid Anthrax...AKA...The day Hogan "Defeated" Nash to win the WCW title in front of 40,000.
Net Hack Slasher
Banger








Since: 6.1.02
From: Outer reaches of your mind

Since last post: 3525 days
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#6 Posted on
The women division was really hot late 01 early 02 and going into Wrestlemania. On many occasions they got the 10PM timeslot which is usually reserved for the 2nd most important slot on a show. They even got a main event overrun spot in an intergender table match which the pinning focus was on Trish and Victoria. They were getting good reaction and very good ratings. I remember there intergender main event match had the largest second hour spike in months. I remember reading somewhere going into WM Jazz, Victoria & Trish were 3 of the top 7 ratings geters on Raw for wrestlers(not including McMahons and Austin). So they were successful, but they had a lot more focus then, the title and characters seemed a lot stronger.

I think the major problem now is the booking. Since WM it seems like every decision is the wrong one, and when you make 1 bad choice you follow it up with another. Starting from Trish losing the title 3 weeks after Wrestlemania, & after such a long chase. Then put her in a losing streak & the looks of a heel turn without establishing someone to take her place. They did a nice job in having Trish give Ivory a babyface teammate rub & Ivory having Jazz's number and they just dropping that in favor of putting all their eggs in Gail Kim's basket. Then quickly figuring out that mistake & put the title on Molly without any legit build & now have both attacking Trish, again trying to get the rub off her the problem is she's done so much losing and beatdowns for moths. Trish has gone from fiesty underdog to loser who can't defend herself & getting a pin on her, what does it mean. It's happened 70% of her matches.

The title used to mean something, when Victoria had it Trish wanted it and they really played it up on how desperate Trish was to get it back especially from Victoria. But then you look at the title lineage, no wonder the title means nothing. Trish won the title that was so important to her & holds it for 3 weeks, it's like what's the point, this loser tried and tried & when she finally got it lost it to her 1st feud. Then a rookie in Gail in her 1st day becomes World Women Champion. Then Molly and as great as she is, was #3 in the heel totem poll & she becomes champion... One of the problems right now is that I think there's too much parity, and no I don't want them to go the way of TorrieBerg. But you have to allow some of your more over girls to shine and build steam and then you have the possibility of them putting someone over. If not it's just a bunch walking sideways wins for everyone

One positive I've seen recently is Molly outthinking her opponents, that's a nice add on to her character but it would have been nicer if they had that character BEFORE becoming champion to build her smartness to getting the title instead of looking like she was just there so give her the title. But all and all I like what they are doing with her character... Another positive is that I always find this girls have so much pride and really go out there and give it there all. I'm sure they really appreciate someone like Lance putting them over.

As for the crowd, I don't think it's as hot as it was 6-12 months ago. Because of the devalue of the title, the "She loves the title" can't be really used especially for Trish because of the brutal post WM lose(not taking anything away from Jazz, she's fantastic & worthy just dropping/getting that title so fast was pointless. If they wanted it on Jazz have her win WM). They need more storyline, agree with dskillz maybe spinoff with a guy feud. The women especially Trish get decent reaction, remembering Monday, Trish got a hot tag that was actually HOT and the crowd was into her offensive flurry. Molly seems to be going well and if they didn't pull the plug on Ivory's push she would have been a solid character as well. I actually find the puppies chants have subsided a bit especially on Raw which is surprising because the color commentator still screams it out whenever he can(quote Josh: 1986 Just Called).

As for reading houseshow reports, how can you not be annoyed by reading those. It's like putting your hand in a bee hive and not expecting to get stung. Majority of houseshow reports I read are from people that I would use the ignore function if they post on here LoL (BTW. I only ignored one person ever and I think he's banned already)






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CANADIAN BULLDOG
Andouille








Since: 5.3.03
From: TORONTO

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#7 Posted on
Not a knock at Lance (not at all), but if anyone needs to take women's wrestling seriously it's the damn company he works for.

The most serious competitors on the roster -- Trish, Molly, Jazz, Victoria, Ivory -- can put on a hell of a show. But when you present that and then present them as sex objects in meaningless skits two weeks later, it kinda loses the impact, you know?

So you'd have to do three things to establish more credibility in the division:

(1) Stop non-wrestlers, eg Stacy, Torrie, Dawn Marie, both Jackies and Sable from actually wrestling. Permanently. It's fine if the men's division has Coach or whatever once in awhile (well, not really, but stick with me here) because he's one in a cast of hundreds. When you have, what, 15 women on the combined Raw and SmackDown wrestlers, and 5 of the competitors aren't actually serious wrestlers, it hurts.

(2) Keep them focused on their own storylines. They've been doing this better for a while now (the whole Trish/Molly/Gail thing), but it has be consistent. If Trish teams up with Hurricane next week on Raw, what's the point?

(3) Make the return of Lita MEAN something. Promote her return from surgery the way they did Kurt Angle. Use some continuity and acknowledge that Bischoff fired her months ago. Give her a big match to return to, either on a top slot on Raw or better yet a pay-per-view. About three years ago, she was one of THE most popular people in the company and there's no reason that has to change.

The matches among Trish, Molly, Victoria and Jazz are consistently among the best on Raw. They just need to keep pushing the division to get a bit more respect.



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Since: 15.1.02
From: Philly

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#8 Posted on
I agree with everything Lance says. Hell, the last time we saw a long term women's angle almost on par with the men? Trish and Steph! That was over two years ago, and looking back (having seen some of the feud on tape last night), it was much more entertaining in retrospect than I originally gave it credit for. However it did take the men to make it that fun (Steph in HHH's corner, Trish in Vince and Angle's.

Actually, that feud also intersected well with HHH and Austin's feud too. I think that is proof of not just how the women can be hyped well with the guys, but also how strong the creative juices were flowing in the good ol' WWF days. With Trish being an honest to goodness wrestler today, and with all the capable women on the roster, why not try it today? I'm not talking about hooking up Gail Kim and Vince McMahon for the money either, hell no.











"Friendship - The art of using somebody to your advantage so that they can help you succeed in life. Once they can no longer help you, they are no longer your friend." Brock Lesnar, Philosopher

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Since: 8.5.03
From: North Carolina

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#9 Posted on
The best thing they can do to help women's matches get over is to polish the action. The wrestlers have to learn how to make even the simplest of moves pop. Punches just ain't credible. Kicks to the ribs look weak. I have no trouble buying into the booking of the matches; it's the execution that sinks them.




"To be the man, you gotta beat demands." -- The Lovely Mrs. Tracker
Purple Pixie
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Since: 27.7.03
From: Sunderland, England

Since last post: 3566 days
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#10 Posted on
Purple Pixie's words of wisdom!
    Originally posted by Bullitt
    Lance's repeat use of "LOL" kinda scares me a little...


Read Shane Helms (the Hurricane's *duh*) if you think that is a lot.
(can't read it or the other myself because my connections dodgey and suddenly all I can get is this site!*yay*)




Enter the mind of the Purple Pixie!

Until then remember, "Everybody's Got a Little S.H.I.T. in Them!" LOL And begin!
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oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

Since last post: 1922 days
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#11 Posted on
Man, I'm gonna be unpopular...

The women have made huge leaps and bounds over the past two years. I'll grant them that. But the only women around who seem capable of putting on a good match with good chemistry are Molly, Trish and Jazz. I'm really not sure where people's perceptions of Victoria-the-superworker are coming from; she's a fun character and she plays it well, but she's no great shakes in the ring. And Bulldog is right; why should we take the ladies seriously when they're thrown into Spanking Matches and wrestle made-up like glamour models? Frankly, I'd rather see them dedicate the time they spend on the Divas to bringing up a coupla new male wrestlers and trying to bolster Raw's severely depleted singles midcard.

But that's just me; I see the hot and cold women's division as another part of the problem rather than a potential ratings riser.



And Lo, The Urine Shall Flow Freely In The Aisles, As Small Children And Frail Old Ladies Flee Before The Brutality, The Might, The Sheer Viciousness...Of ~EVIL COACH~!

YossinoIC
Cotechino








Since: 28.6.03
From: Massachusetts

Since last post: 3994 days
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#12 Posted on
    Originally posted by fuelinjected
    Lance says it best when he says, "why donít you try actually watching one of the Diva matches and giving it a chance. Itís not just about the puppies, anymore".

    I think people just go in with their pre-conceived notions and biases about what they're going to see and are looking for failure. They're waiting for any slight misstep or hint at a botched spot so they can fulfill their pre-conceived notion that the women's matches on RAW are horrible. They're picking the matches apart way more then any male matches, especially involving wrestlers of similar experience level as the women.


In my opinion, the general fan doesn't care enough about the division to even go as far as to pick out botched spots or missteps to fulfill their notion that women's wrestling is terrible. The average fan - male demographic 18 to 35 - does not generally care about women's wrestling. All the right booking and quality wrestling matches in the world could not possibly convince an american (male) wrestling fan in this current society to care about the characters in the division. Lawler yelling "Puppies" while Stacy and Trish fight in a spanking match cetainly doesn't help matters, but it is far from THE reason women's matches aren't cared for or taken seriously.

Women are used in the T&A roles they are in because the male dominated society wants it that way. Trish's "puppies" are what matter, not her "chick kick" or her drastic change and devlopment as a worker. Male wrestlers are what sell and draw. The women are a side attraction that can just as easily be done away with. Listen to the crowd reaction that the women get when they are introduced for their matches. Trish is the only one who typically gets a large pop from the crowd, with Stacy - who doesn't wrestle regularly in the division - coming in second. Even with the large crowd response Trish gets, that doesn't guarantee the audience will care once the bell rings (Scott Steiner being a good example of the male workers). Everyone from Jazz to the beloved Molly Holly gets barely anything from the live audience. Remember the "main event" Women's Title match on Raw a few months back featuring Gail Kim that garnered absolutely no heat from the crowd? I'm fairly sure that if they stopped the women's division on tonight's Raw that no one (aside from wienerboard regs) would really be up-in-arms about the decision.

The bottom line is that perception of the women's division on RAW and women's wrestling in general will not change until the North American society that surrounds it changes first.







Ronnie Coleman.
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Since: 26.8.02

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#13 Posted on
While I understand what you're saying, YossinoIC, and even think you're right for the most part, I've never understood why it is that a male dominated fanbase would rather see guys rolling around in their underwear than women. Personally, if the action & storylines were on the same level, I'd much rather watch the women go at it than the men.
Spaceman Spiff
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: Philly Suburbs

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#14 Posted on
Because it says "wrestling" on the marquee. The (male) audience tunes in to & attends shows on the premise of watching wrestling performed by competent male wrestlers (some more competent than others). There's plenty of other places guys can see women rolling around in their underwear (or less).


    Personally, if the action & storylines were on the same level, I'd much rather watch the women go at it than the men.

You'll never get that in the WWE, though.



Nag
Landjager








Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2113 days
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Y!:
#15 Posted on
"It's not just about the puppies, anymore."

Yeah, okay, so they get the implants so we ignore there breasts....Right Lance?

Over the last year, there has no doubt been improvements in the division. The workrate has improved dramatically. And overall, I think they have KINDA shifted the focus from the Bra and Painties garbage, to athleticism, well at least on RAW.

The problem I have, along with the shallow depth of competitors, is not merely sexual perception but athletic perception. As long as these girls are wrestling in the WWE, they are going to be measured by the same criteria that as the best men in the organization are measured by. Nature has made man the more physically stronger species; and bunch of Nike commercials promoting girls youth soccer can't change that overnight, neither will Hollywood desperate to revive the action/adventure genre, nor will a bunch rabid feminists with a testicle ripping agenda. Please dont' get me wrong, I'm not saying there style is a bad thing, I'm just saying it's different and will have a hard time measuring up to the best male matches.

Women's wrestling is as different from the traditional American style as MMA is from Lucha, or even as Southern is to Northern. And it needs to be treated that way. First, they need to get a stronger talent pool of women's wrestlers. Second, and as was the idea with the Raw/Smackdown rooster split, they need to get them thier own show written and booked by someone who will showcase the strengths and hide the weaknesses. Not Vince, he only sees an open mouth and a pair of kneepads, not an athlete not a preformer.

Untill the products are seperated, I have a hard time seeing the womens matches on Raw getting anymore of a reaction then a Maven/Norwinski encounter.



Yes, We have no bananas!!!!
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3411 days
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#16 Posted on
Does anyone think that a well done, bad-ass female heel stable could get people interested in the division? I realize that the WWE doesn't do stables very well, but I've always thought that this would be something that could energize the fans. Have 2 or three of the girls ganging up on another and try to build some intense heat. Sure, it might be cheap heat, but at least its something to build on.

DMC



sayain zubas
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Since: 9.8.03
From: michigan

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#17 Posted on
can u say pretty mean sistas? cuz i can, lol (yeah, u know whut im talking about)
jwrestle
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Since: 4.4.03
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Y!:
#18 Posted on
Wasn't Lita winning the Women's title main event or mediocore main event?




(edited by jwrestle on 8.9.03 1700)

This is getting annoying now isn't it?
Banned Once! The independant thought alarm went off, knew to much about b*tching.
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Since: 12.2.03
From: New York, USA

Since last post: 2612 days
Last activity: 1687 days
#19 Posted on
    Originally posted by DMC
    Does anyone think that a well done, bad-ass female heel stable could get people interested in the division? I realize that the WWE doesn't do stables very well, but I've always thought that this would be something that could energize the fans. Have 2 or three of the girls ganging up on another and try to build some intense heat. Sure, it might be cheap heat, but at least its something to build on.

    DMC


Uh, like Molly & Gail?



what you say
DMC
Liverwurst








Since: 8.1.02
From: Modesto, CA

Since last post: 3411 days
Last activity: 3405 days
#20 Posted on
With stable I was thinking more than 2, despite what I wrote.

And I have to miss the first 2 weeks where the WWE actually *does* do development of a diva team that lasts more than 1 week!

DMC

(edited by DMC on 8.9.03 2142)

(edited by DMC on 8.9.03 2145)

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