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The W - Current Events & Politics - Immigration Marches/Reform
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Corajudo
Frankfurter








Since: 7.11.02
From: Dallas, TX

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.68
I couldn't believe the size of the march in Dallas (the police estimated 350K-500k), and I'm curious about the size and impact of the marches in other cities/communities. Here, all the Spanish language radio stations and press were publicizing the march. More importantly, they urged everyone to be respectful, be peaceful, have a clear message (in English), and carry U.S. flags. It was impressive.

Hopefully, this will spur Congress to do something so that we actually have a reasonable immigration policy. It seems to me that a reasonable policy must have three elements: 1. better enforcement of existing laws, 2. more open immigration (because as it is now, unskilled workers have little hope of being able to enter legally), and 3. some type of path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already here. We've already tried enforcement and amnesty, and that flat doesn't work. It seems to me that all three elements need to be in place or we'll have the same problems again in a few years. Am I too optimistic to hope that policymakers have actually learned from past policy mistakes? (probably)

IMHO, the Republicans are going to lose the Hispanic vote for the next couple of generations over this issue, in spite of the efforts of Bush, McCain and a few others. You'd think they would learn after making the same mistake with the African-American vote in the 1950s-60s, and the Catholic vote early in the 20th century. It's not good to be on the wrong side of history. Or demographics, for that matter.



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AWArulz
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Since: 28.1.02
From: Louisville, KY

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.59
I don't much care who gets the vote.

Here's my stance. We have 11 odd million people who entered here illegally. The old law enforcement officer in me (and the conservative) says round 'em up and kick 'em out. Because people who ARE waiting and making the right moves to enter legally are getting screwed. And so on.....

But, the guy who is practical and likes people says - well, we kind of let this happen and we need to do something. I agree with the basic plan: Do something to enforce the border and decide how immigration will work from this point forward. Quotas and so on.. I am pretty liberal on those numbers.

Existing illegals need to somehow become either legal or deported, in my mind. I am all for the great majority of them to become legal workers (Green card) very quickly and eligible for citizenship if they have been good boys and girls while here.

So yeah, I support the great numbers of those protesting. I know, you're saying to yourself, Not AWARulz! But pragmatism trumps the desire for the rule of law in this case. If we were actively protecting and defending our borders, it might be a different story. But when we post government signs saying watch for illegal immigrants crossing the road, I don't think we're making a concerted effort to keep people out. Therefore, when they come in under that situation, I think some allowances need to be made.





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ges7184
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Since: 7.1.02
From: Birmingham, AL

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.81
Getting tough on immigration is going to require money, resources, and the actual desire to do so regardless. By just allowing current immigrants amnesty (or the near-equivalent), it tells me we really don't have the heart nor desire to really deal with this (I actually suspect that this is so true, ultimately NOTHING will actually pass the legislature, and all of this is just rhetoric for an election year). We have been down this road before, give current immigrants a pass while promising to get tough on immigration in the future. But historically we only do the first part, thus providing more incentive for future immigration (low risk of getting kicked out, good probability of being legalized if you wait it out).

If there is no problem simply legalizing the immigrants who are already here, why would there be any problem with continuing with the status quo? What would make future immigrants any more risky or problematic than the current group?

I do think that a serious look does need to me made for the legal immigration process. The easier that is made, the less incentive there will be to bypass that process. But whatever that process is, I think it is only fair to make all immigrants go through that. Either it's necessary or it's not. If it's not, then let's just drop it entirely and open up the borders.



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Cerebus
Scrapple








Since: 17.11.02

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.97
    Originally posted by AWArulz
    Pretty much everything you said... Why quote the whole post and take up space, right.


...and for once, I'm in almost total agreement with you. (WOW!)

Corojudo, however, I think you're completely wrong. The Black vote from the 50's and the Womens right to vote are completely different then allowing the illegals to vote. The blacks were forced here and women were already here. If you hopped the border getting here, you don't deserve a vote because you didn't earn your way here.

Also, why should we allow unskilled workers in the country? I suppose you could say that we need people to fill the lower waged jobs, but why 'out source', which is basiclly what we'd be doing. There's millions of homeless and poor people already here, why not give them the jobs?

Canada doesn't allow just anyone to enter it's country. Neither does most other countries. I understand that it might be pretty bad down in Mexico, but we have enough problems here already, we don't need any more to deal with, you know.

Lastly, isn't it just wrong to reward those who've already broken the law and come over here illegally with citizenship when there are people who have been waiting for years for to 'legal' right to come here and probably never will?
Leroy
Boudin blanc








Since: 7.2.02

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.79
Here's a report from the Cato Institute on illegal immigration (it's a PDF) . Keep in mind that Cato is not exactly known as a left-wing organization. In fact, there more known for their free-market, capitalist perspectives than anything else.

Anyway, a couple of quotes:

    Originally posted by the report

    In one of the most comprehensive economic studies ever done on the impact of immigration on the U.S. economy, the National Research Council concluded in a 1997 report that immigration delivers a ďsignificant positive gainĒ of $1 billion to $10 billion a year to native Americans. The Presidentís Council of Economic Advisors, in its February 2002 Economic Report of the President, estimated that immigrants raise the income of Americans by $1 billion to $14 billion a year.


Furthermore...

    Originally posted by the report again

    Legalizing Mexican migration would, in one stroke, bring a huge underground market into the open. It would allow American producers in important sectors of our economy to hire the workers they need to grow. It would raise wages and working conditions for millions of low-skilled workers and spur investment in human capital. It would free resources and personnel for the war on terrorism.

    Contrary to common objections, evidence does not suggest that a properly designed system of legal Mexican migration will unleash a flood of new immigrants to the United States, hurt low-skilled Americans, burden taxpayers, create an unassimilated underclass, encourage lawbreaking, or compromise border security.


There's also a section on how things changed after the 1986 passage of the IRCA, and how all that did was increased the cost illegal immigrants paid to get across the border and back - which in turn means most had to stay here longer.

So personally, I think H.R. 4437 is a horrible idea that will solve absolutely nothing. It will just shove illegal immigrants further underground, which is just bad for everyone.



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RYDER FAKIN
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Since: 21.2.02
From: ORLANDO

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.66
Cerebus: Corojudo, however, I think you're completely wrong. The Black vote from the 50's and the Womens right to vote are completely different then allowing the illegals to vote. The blacks were forced here and women were already here. If you hopped the border getting here, you don't deserve a vote because you didn't earn your way here.

Come on. That's pretty much a slap in the face to our occupation of this country

Also, why should we allow unskilled workers in the country?

I've never considered landscaping or construction of any sort to be "unskilled", just labor of a different kind. Although, "green side up" ain't hard to figure out. But many "professionals" tend to screw that up

I suppose you could say that we need people to fill the lower waged jobs, but why 'out source', which is basiclly what we'd be doing. There's millions of homeless and poor people already here, why not give them the jobs?

Laziness and / or Welfare. We've got plenty of both in this country

Canada doesn't allow just anyone to enter it's country. Neither does most other countries. I understand that it might be pretty bad down in Mexico, but we have enough problems here already, we don't need any more to deal with, you know.

We aren't just "allowing" anyone entry. That's why they are considered "illegals". Besides, it's not all that hard to get in and out of Canada anyway. Just no one is "dying" to get in. And the problem is already here. It's lucky no one has been all that militant yet.

Lastly, isn't it just wrong to reward those who've already broken the law and come over here illegally with citizenship when there are people who have been waiting for years for to 'legal' right to come here and probably never will?

Nope. Because we can tax them. Although, if anyone explained properly the outright financial rape by the Federal, State, County and City governments of the American citizen, they'd probably think twice about being "legal"

Leroy: So personally, I think H.R. 4437 is a horrible idea that will solve absolutely nothing. It will just shove illegal immigrants further underground, which is just bad for everyone.

Yep.

And regarding "Assimilate to American Culture". It's not out of need or not wanting to, but purely capitalism. A large population of Hispanic means businesses that cater to "Spanish Only".

To keep up, the American business owners had to go bilingual or bust. That's not just here locally, for me, (Central Florida) but everywhere - at least at the corporate level. If you don't have Spanish assistance for customers that may speak a little English, but are much more comfortable speaking Spanish , you're sunk.

That then translates to all walks of life. There's no need for them to speak English or die, it's a language that's catered to. There is no other culture in America that has that. My advice would be proactive and learn Spanish...that way you know when you are being cussed.

Corajudo - thanks for starting the thread. This has got to be a better issue than 9/11

FLEA

EDIT: A couple things from

Eddie Famous:Once the "illegal" workers become legal, and therefore subject to labor law minimums and (gasp) possible unionization, what would then curb manufacturers from further outsourcing jobs to foreign countries eager to pimp their citizenry for under the table cash?

Wouldn't this then possibly create another level of unemployed manual workers?

well, luckily the Unions are dying the bloated death they should have 20 years ago. But the rest of it - yeah. Kind of. Most of the legals would still be working the farm, labor, maid, etc jobs - the ones that don't outsource. But they would still be one of us. Subject to punishment, when necessary


Also, where will the funds for educating the children of these new citizens come from? With schools in many major cities struggling to teach US-born kids usable English, how can we expect them to be able to successfully teach an influx of non-English-speaking youngsters?

Again, taxes. And I think there are still states that don't have a lottery of some sort, for whatever reason, That's always a good way to raise money and sucker people into thinking it going towards education. But, they'll be no shortage of budgeting, I'm sure. Just bitching

One more thing. The creeps right now are talking about how we need to round them up and shoot on sight if necessary. I'm thinking

1) good thing this country has had practice with genocide

2) this is going to get ugly. why would anyone in their right minds back someone into a corner who has nothing to lose?

FLEA



(edited by RYDER FAKIN on 11.4.06 2003)

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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.40

I don't really have a problem with the situation, but I would just like to point out:

Once the "illegal" workers become legal, and therefore subject to labor law minimums and (gasp) possible unionization, what would then curb manufacturers from further outsourcing jobs to foreign countries eager to pimp their citizenry for under the table cash?

Wouldn't this then possibly create another level of unemployed manual workers?

Also, where will the funds for educating the children of these new citizens come from? With schools in many major cities struggling to teach US-born kids usable English, how can we expect them to be able to successfully teach an influx of non-English-speaking youngsters?



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TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 106 days
Last activity: 106 days
#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.42
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    Also, where will the funds for educating the children of these new citizens come from? With schools in many major cities struggling to teach US-born kids usable English, how can we expect them to be able to successfully teach an influx of non-English-speaking youngsters?


Maybe we could stop spending $400 billion a year on defense...cut back to, say, a meager $350 billion?

    Originally posted by Cerebrus
    If you hopped the border getting here, you don't deserve a vote because you didn't earn your way here.


On one hand there's the obvious retort ["everyone came here from another country originally"] that makes a valid point, but instead I'll ask what it is you're afraid of. If it's monetary concerns, then first of all, any legal citizen is going to have to pay taxes. Also, this country is already drowning in debt as it is, I don't see how encouraging more immigrants to enter illegally by making it harder to get here legally is going to change that. If your concern is a cultural one, than I have no time for you.


    Canada doesn't allow just anyone to enter it's country. Neither does most other countries. I understand that it might be pretty bad down in Mexico, but we have enough problems here already, we don't need any more to deal with, you know.

    Lastly, isn't it just wrong to reward those who've already broken the law and come over here illegally with citizenship when there are people who have been waiting for years for to 'legal' right to come here and probably never will?


1a. Not nearly as many people are exactly dying to live life in Canada.

1b. Because Canada, Mexcio, El Salvador, Yugoslavia and Atlantis do things one way, that doesn't mean it's right for America. The U.S. immigration situation is different from any other country's, so it's solution isn't necessarily going to be the same.

2. The "reward" isn't solely on the potential new citizens' end, you know. There are a lot of people who not only have things to contribute to society (ANY society) in the form of labor, culture or innovation, but also DESERVE a chance to be where they think they'll be happy. Why do you see it as "why do WE have to take them in," when a much better point of view, if you ask me, is "why don't we help them?" Sounds to me like you're just afraid of something different.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 11.4.06 2023)
tricia
Bauerwurst








Since: 5.11.05

Since last post: 204 days
Last activity: 3 days
#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52

[I really donít have any good opinions on this subject. And I am not versed in immigration law. I did read all of the above posts and all of them were quite interesting. I apologize in advance if I end up offending anybody, or if there is any offence if my views seem rather simplistic. This is just my two cents. Nothing more.]

As I have stated before on this message board, I am an adoptee. I was born in Seoul South Korea and was brought over when I was ten months old. My parents made me a US citizen soon afterwards. For the most part, I think I turned out okay; I am not impoverished, have a good education, and have a good home life.

Lately, I have been doing a lot of thinking and soul searching about my situation as an adoptee and what that means to my own personal and racial identity. Some of the answers I am finding are less than pleasant. The impression that I am starting to get is that I was once part of a specific group in a larger society, a group that the society simply didnít want to deal with. So instead of dealing with me and others like me, they have us deported! And they are making pretty good money off of us too! WTF?!

Personal neuroses aside, I am bringing this up because I think that this is happening also with our Hispanic immigration problems as well. Has our government ever in the past asked the government of Mexico to do something about their citizens that they are bleeding into our country? Or is this the case of another society that has a group of people that they donít want to deal with so they look away as they wander into the US? I have genuine compassion for all of these poor people and I have no idea how to solve the immigration legal problem. But I think that whatever we do will be just one giant band aid until we address why their government allows this in the first place.




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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.81
Tricia,

Not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico, even for the groups that come through Mexico. Mexico has people from South America who are passing through into the US, and they don't particularly want them there either, or at least that's how I've seen it portrayed.

So... there is something to what you are thinking.



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Jaguar
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

Since last post: 233 days
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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.66
That Cato Institute report cracks me up. Sure, I believe them that Americans will be making billions of dollars off of legalized immigrants joining the work place - but exactly which Americans? I can guarantee you that it won't be the lower and lower middle class ones. Not when there's suddenly an explosion of people who now have the legal credentials to do your job, and at minimum wage to boot.

Whatever immigration reform is passed (and I hope for some tighter border control, and some form of amnesty) we need to be looking at spending money on not only stabilizing our economy so that the jobs that can't be outsourced actually do produce a livable wage, but on improving the quality of living for our southern neighbors as well.



(edited by Jaguar on 12.4.06 0022)


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Landjager








Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

Since last post: 2211 days
Last activity: 266 days
Y!:
#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.34
"Originally posted by Leroy
Here's Originally posted by the report

In its February 2002 Economic Report of the President, estimated that immigrants raise the income of Americans by $1 billion to $14 billion a year."

That, I wouldn't doubt; the Bourgeois's are getting 14 billion, I know by looking at my ever thinning wallet, it sure the hell isn't "us".

Illegal, at least where I went to the school, meant wrong, these people are here Illegally. When I get caught doing something Illegally, I get punished. Like the shirts, fat chicks used to wear, ďWhat part of No, donít you understand.Ē What Iím understanding, the lack of BP at the border, that makes its alright? So, I guess itís alright for me to murder someone, if a cop isnít nearby, right?

The mistake person make, is America is a land of opportunity; "come here and live the American Dream." Yeah! In 1906, that was the case, we had jobs, we had unions, we had land, we had common sense; in 2006 it is not.

We are no longer a burgeoning nation that we were 100-150 year ago. This is a nation that is at capacity, or in my opinion, slowly dying. This country no longer has free 40-acre parcels of free land to give you in Kansas, we no longer have factory jobs, they have been shipped overseas. Our children are growing dumber by the year, as is the gap between rich and poor. Meanwhile, the CEO's and politicians of this nation are getting away with things, that 100 years ago would would have placed them in front of a firing squad for treason (and still should), yet, the average American could give a hoot.

Maybe this wouldn't be such an issue, if we actually used the military to, get this, protect our borders, Instead of rebuilding Iraq.

I'm not going to even touch the nationalist La Raza issue and the reunification of the southwest to the motherland. Point is, we simply cannot afford to become Mexico's sink right now.









(edited by Nag on 12.4.06 0150)


"A guy from Ohio can make it in life if he works hard enough."--Woody Hayes
Lise
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Since: 11.12.01

Since last post: 453 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.98
I believe this bill is all posturing by politicians trying to blame the other side for the reason that nothing gets done on the issue. The real reason nothing gets done is because it is an extremely complex issue and doing nothing is much easier than trying to solve any part of the problem.

When I lived in Seattle, illegal immigrants seemed like a topic that was easily talked about in blanket statements. Now that I've lived in San Diego for five years I have a much better idea of how many topics and issues are actually involved. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I feel I have some information that might add to this discussion.

I had a recent class where a grad student gave a report on border issues. This Latin Studies grad student also happens to be a Sgt. for the Chula Vista police department. Chula Vista is the city south of San Diego, directly across the border from Tijuana. A lot of what he had to say had to do with border area specific crime (a lot of car theft) and trying to deal with cultural differences in enforcing the law, but he mentioned something which really blew my mind. I don't remember the exact number but, people legally crossing over the border and shopping only within the city limits of Chula Vista accounted for multiple BILLIONS of dollars in revenue, the vast majority of it done in cash. While this has to do directly with legal border crossing and not illegal, if the borders are tightened up in such a way that causes even say a 10% drop in across the border shopping, every border area in the United States is going to take a significant financial hit.

Also economically is the sad fact is that our current agricultural prices are based on migrant labor. I don't really want to get into this too far because it is a rather touchy subject and a bit of a mess of different issues in itself. The majority of migrant workers do not live in the US the entire year, they move from place to place for 8-10 months out of the year returning home or sending back money to wives and children living in rural villages. There are serious social and health issues within migrant populations, their home villages, and in the towns in the US in which they work which are largely ignored and not addressed by the various authorities. The alternatives are pretty iffy though. No one in the US wants to pay for more services for these people, but no one in the US wants to pay $6 for a head of lettuce either. Conditions and employment opportunities in their home areas are such that this life seems like a good idea, so the migrant laborer system continues.

Another serious issue is that families are not universally illegal aliens. In any given family that contains illegal aliens there are also full US citizens. So Dad and Grandma might be illegal aliens with Mom being a legal alien and three children who are US citizens. What happens when you deport Dad and Grandma, or even worse, what happens if you deport both parents but one of the children is 18 or older and a US citizen so all of the children stay here under the care of a brother or sister. At 18-19 how is anyone going to manage to support, care for, and discipline a number of siblings without relying at least in part on social services? A massive deportation would put more individuals relying on these services, not less. Not to mention you might have a sudden jump in youth crime, teenage pregnancy, and drop out rates.


Not to mention the administrative, financial, and manpower cost to track down illegal aliens, process them through the criminal justice system (oh yeah, like that is a well oiled machine already), and then deport them. Increasing border control also requires more manpower and for government agencies to agree and communicate between themselves on jurisdiction, problems, and information. We all know how well that works now.

A Mexican Citizen can cross the border as easily as you or I can go to Mexico or Canada. People risking their lives to cross the border are often members of indigenous peoples of Central and South America and are actively discriminated against and often the target of violence in their places of origin. These people are horribly poor, like never seen a toilet of any kind poor. They often manage to illegally cross multiple borders to make their way north to Mexico. The Mexican Government doesn't want anything to do with these refugees and in some ways they condone or in the case of those infamous comic books actively encourage refugees to illegally cross into the US.

This is not a problem that stops or starts at the United State's southern border. This is something that encompasses the whole of the Americas. Solving it is only slightly less daunting than attempting World Peace.


(edited by Lise on 12.4.06 0143)
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I don't know. If they haven't missed any cases yet, I'd say they're doing fine. How many cases have they missed? Is it greater than zero? What percentage would make you feel better? (What percentage are they currently testing in Canada?)
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