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The W - Basketball - Im officially through with the NBA...
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rockdotcom_2.0
Frankfurter








Since: 9.1.02
From: Virginia Beach Va

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.89
If this kid is seriously being considered as a lottery pick. Not to knock this kid, Im sure hes talented but you mean to tell me that THIS kid is better than about 90% of college players? Jesus, he looks 12!

The whole article (sportsillustrated.cnn.com)

I really dont understand the NBA, the quality of play is declining at an at an incredible rate yet they continue to draft high school players. I dont understand. I used to be a huge NBA fan but now I find most games damn near unwatchable. Then they fire Coaches weekly because they cant get anything out of these little boys. NBA coaches shouldnt have to teach players basic skills and thats just what they end up having to do.






I don't want you to be the guy in the PG-13 movie everyone's *really* hoping makes it happen. I want you to be like the guy in the rated R movie, you know, the guy you're not sure whether or not you like yet. You're not sure where he's coming from. Okay? You're a bad man. You're a bad man. You're a bad man, bad man.
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Merc
Potato korv








Since: 3.1.02
From: Brisbane, Australia

Since last post: 1291 days
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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.62
It's the same with major sports in every country though. Organisations try to get hold of kids with potential as soon as they can. No one wants to be the team that missed out on the next wonder kid. If you had a situation where, say the Nuggets to pick a name, could sponsor a kid to go through college they wouldn't have to draft them right out of high school. But then you start getting into all sorts of messy conflicts of interest. No matter the system people will exploit it and there will be outrage at something or other.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 8 days
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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.97
Well, the reason that the NBA is suffering is Michael Jordan. (stick with me on this one)

Mike came out, and the NBA was starting to need another superstar. Magic was in the latter days of his career, Bird and the Celtics were waning, and Mike became the NBAs answer to everything. They hyped the shit out of him, and the Bulls, and everything he did was WORSHIPED by anybody on TV. So, what does the young player learn? Its all about dunking. True, Jordan was terrific on the Defensive side of the ball, but that isn't going to get you a Sportscenter Top Ten Nomination (another thing I absolutely HATE). So, a generation of children grow up swinging from the jock of Jordan and figure all they have to do is drive to the lane, push off, and dunk. THIS is what ruined the fundamentals of Basketball. NOT drafting high school kids. The figure into the equation that every time the game was in the final 4 minutes, if anybody BREATHED near Jordan, a foul was called. He knew it, so in clutch time, he gets the ball, and drives, knowing a CHARGE will never get called. And, he could throw up any piece of shit shot when he got blocked out, and knew he would be going to the line for two (or one, if it fell). This, along with the stupid fucking little "jump step" that they allow has ruined the fundamental teachings of basketball. Look at the historically strong programs over the past 20 years, and what names come to mind? Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and maybe even Indiana. Now, how many SUPERSTARS (other than Jordan and Worthy who were great in college) came from those schools? NONE. Yet, they were successfully because their coaches stressed fundamentally sound basketball. In the end, Jordan retires, and a bunch of Jordan wannabes cant take up the slack. So, the next logical step? Draft players from Europe. They usually are more fundamentally sound than your average 4 year college player, and understand TEAMWORK. My favorite NBA player right now is Pau Gasol. He is a tremendous player, who gets NO press, because he plays in Memphis. The NBA decided 15 or so years ago that its marketing was more important than its actually quality of the game. THATS where they went wrong.

(edited by StaggerLee on 1.3.04 0631)


I was once WOTD, and nobody bothered to tell me?
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

Since last post: 482 days
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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, the reason that the NBA is suffering is Michael Jordan. (stick with me on this one)

    Mike came out, and the NBA was starting to need another superstar. Magic was in the latter days of his career, Bird and the Celtics were waning, and Mike became the NBAs answer to everything. They hyped the shit out of him, and the Bulls, and everything he did was WORSHIPED by anybody on TV. So, what does the young player learn? Its all about dunking. True, Jordan was terrific on the Defensive side of the ball, but that isn't going to get you a Sportscenter Top Ten Nomination (another thing I absolutely HATE). So, a generation of children grow up swinging from the jock of Jordan and figure all they have to do is drive to the lane, push off, and dunk. THIS is what ruined the fundamentals of Basketball. NOT drafting high school kids. The figure into the equation that every time the game was in the final 4 minutes, if anybody BREATHED near Jordan, a foul was called. He knew it, so in clutch time, he gets the ball, and drives, knowing a CHARGE will never get called. And, he could throw up any piece of shit shot when he got blocked out, and knew he would be going to the line for two (or one, if it fell). This, along with the stupid fucking little "jump step" that they allow has ruined the fundamental teachings of basketball. Look at the historically strong programs over the past 20 years, and what names come to mind? Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and maybe even Indiana. Now, how many SUPERSTARS (other than Jordan and Worthy who were great in college) came from those schools? NONE. Yet, they were successfully because their coaches stressed fundamentally sound basketball. In the end, Jordan retires, and a bunch of Jordan wannabes cant take up the slack. So, the next logical step? Draft players from Europe. They usually are more fundamentally sound than your average 4 year college player, and understand TEAMWORK. My favorite NBA player right now is Pau Gasol. He is a tremendous player, who gets NO press, because he plays in Memphis. The NBA decided 15 or so years ago that its marketing was more important than its actually quality of the game. THATS where they went wrong.

    (edited by StaggerLee on 1.3.04 0631)




AMEN. Of course, the classic NBA marketing that shows what is of priority is every time they tearfully reminisce about the afternoon Jordan scored 63 in the playoffs, they forget to mention he missed a shot that could have won the game, and that his team LOST in double OT on their way to getting swept. Thus, it shows yet again that the priority of those pushing the league is on individuals instead of upon winning.



I want you to know: I agree with everything I just said.
edge2333a
Bauerwurst








Since: 20.2.04
From: nashville

Since last post: 3848 days
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#5 Posted on
StaggerLee I'm dead with you on on the "jump-step"! The most asinine thing in the NBA!
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
I think you could probably place some of the blame (of the decline in play) on Glenn Robinson's shoulders, too.

After all, it was Robinson's huge rookie salary that caused the NBA owners to hastily approve a rookie salary cap in the 1996 collective barganing agreement. The idea being, I guess, that players like Glenn Robinson aren't signing huge $70 million contracts before they ever step on a NBA court.

Of course, it backfired, causing high school players to think, "well, why should I play three years for free, then play three years for no money* before I make the BIG bucks?" causing an influx of not-ready-for-prime-time high schoolers (with the Jordan syndrome, no less), which dragged down the level of play.

*"no money" being a relative term, of course





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StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.97
I never understood blaming PLAYERS for thier salary. Lets say a kid in your neighborhood cuts grass. He cuts your neighbors grass, and his lawn looks GREAT. But, you want the kid to cut YOUR grass, so you pay him $200 to cut YOUR grass, and not your neighbors. Is the KID to blame for the salary, or is it YOU for being stupid enough to pay a kid $200 to do something very simple, and not WORTH $200?

If the owners cant figure out that it is THIER OWN FAULT that the salaries are so high, its thier own fault. Hell, none of those multi millionaires got that way being STUPID (with the exception of Mark Cuban) so how is thier business sense so screwed up?



I was once WOTD, and nobody bothered to tell me?
Scar
Goetta








Since: 2.1.02
From: NS, Canada

Since last post: 1495 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.00
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I never understood blaming PLAYERS for their salary. Lets say a kid in your neighborhood cuts grass. He cuts your neighbors grass, and his lawn looks GREAT. But, you want the kid to cut YOUR grass, so you pay him $200 to cut YOUR grass, and not your neighbors. Is the KID to blame for the salary, or is it YOU for being stupid enough to pay a kid $200 to do something very simple, and not WORTH $200?


But the problem is that a couple of other guys on your block can't afford to pay a kid $200 to cut the grass. You want the best to do it, so you're willing to pay as much as you have to. Now all the kids want to cut your grass for $200, and won't do ours for less. So while you have a nice lawn, the rest of the neighbourhood looks like shit.

That's where the problems are. There is teams that can afford to keep their players and have a good franchise and teams that can't compete with the money. Those with the money always will say if I want to pay it, then no one should stop me. They don't seem to realize the greatest team in the world means shit if you don't have anyone to play against.



X-ring.
Battlezone
Potato korv








Since: 27.2.03
From: Seattle, Washington

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.50
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    I never understood blaming PLAYERS for thier salary...


To be fair, I wasn't blaming the players for making the money they make.

The point I was trying to make was that the idiotic "rookie salary cap" did nothing but cause a bunch of ill-prepared high schoolers to go pro, taking their high school game with them, instead of going to college to prepare their game for the pros.

Sure, you hear about the Kevin Garnetts and the Kobe Bryants of the world, but you don't hear about the majority of former high-schoolers clogging up benches throughout the NBA.



"It's the four pillars of the male heterosexual psyche. We like naked women, stockings, lesbians, and Sean Connery best as James Bond because that is what being a [man] is." -Jack Davenport, Coupling
DrDirt
Banger








Since: 8.10.03
From: flyover country

Since last post: 2 days
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.75
    Originally posted by Battlezone
      Originally posted by StaggerLee
      I never understood blaming PLAYERS for thier salary...


    To be fair, I wasn't blaming the players for making the money they make.

    The point I was trying to make was that the idiotic "rookie salary cap" did nothing but cause a bunch of ill-prepared high schoolers to go pro, taking their high school game with them, instead of going to college to prepare their game for the pros.

    Sure, you hear about the Kevin Garnetts and the Kobe Bryants of the world, but you don't hear about the majority of former high-schoolers clogging up benches throughout the NBA.


Is part of the solution a real farm system for these guys like baseball. It took even Kobe a little while to become Kobe.



Perception is reality
JayJayDean
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.99
    Originally posted by Battlezone
    Sure, you hear about the Kevin Garnetts and the Kobe Bryants of the world, but you don't hear about the majority of former high-schoolers clogging up benches throughout the NBA.


Hmmm...let's see about that.

CURRENT NBA PLAYERS WITH ONLY HIGH SCHOOL EXPERIENCE

Boston - Kendrick Perkins
Chicago - Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry
Cleveland - Kedrick Brown, DeSagana Diop, LeBron James
Indiana - Al Harrington, Jonathan Bender, Jermaine O'Neal
L.A. Lakers - Kobe Bryant
Minnesota - Ndudi Ebi, Kevin Garnett
Orlando - Tracy McGrady, DeShawn Stevenson
Phoenix - Amare Stoudamire
Portland - Darius Miles, Travis Outlaw
Seattle - Rashard Lewis
Washington - Kwame Brown

That's 19 players. If you take KG, T-Mac, Kobe, Jermaine, and LeBron that's 5 superstars. Lewis, Chandler, Curry, Harrington, Bender, Miles, Stoudamire, Stevenson, Kwame Brown, and even Diop play meaningful minutes for their teams. So that leaves FOUR guys (Perkins, Ebi, Outlaw, and Kedrick Brown) who don't play too many minutes. I'd hardly say high schoolers are "clogging up benches throughout the NBA." EIGHTEEN teams don't even have a high schooler on their rosters.





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beefncheddar
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Since: 16.2.04
From: Mt. Pleasant, SC

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#12 Posted on
While there may be just 19 on NBA benches, to be fair, you should probably consider all the prep-to-pro prospects who were never drafted, as well. I'm thinking of you, Leon Smith and friends.
StaggerLee
Scrapple








Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

Since last post: 8 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.97
    Originally posted by Scar
    But the problem is that a couple of other guys on your block can't afford to pay a kid $200 to cut the grass. You want the best to do it, so you're willing to pay as much as you have to. Now all the kids want to cut your grass for $200, and won't do ours for less. So while you have a nice lawn, the rest of the neighbourhood looks like shit.

    That's where the problems are. There is teams that can afford to keep their players and have a good franchise and teams that can't compete with the money. Those with the money always will say if I want to pay it, then no one should stop me. They don't seem to realize the greatest team in the world means shit if you don't have anyone to play against.


That argument might go far, except we were originally brought into this discussion in terms of Glenn Robinson and his contract with Milwaukee. Hardly a RICH team. So, they are dumb enough to pay it, its thier own fualts. I wont pay an extra 2 cents a gallon for gas, if I dont have to, why would somebody else pay millions of dollars for a rookie, FAR more than he is worth, is beyond me.

I agree with the rookie Salary cap, in fact, I think it would be beneficial to stretch it to the 7 year span for players. THEN they can make the HUGE bucks, after they proven they are WORTH it in the long run.



I was once WOTD, and nobody bothered to tell me?
redsoxnation
Scrapple








Since: 24.7.02

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.44
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    That argument might go far, except we were originally brought into this discussion in terms of Glenn Robinson and his contract with Milwaukee. Hardly a RICH team. .





I wouldn't say Milwaukee isn't a rich team. Senator Kohl does have a national chain of stores named after him.



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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.48

    Originally posted by beefncheddar
    While there may be just 19 on NBA benches, to be fair, you should probably consider all the prep-to-pro prospects who were never drafted, as well. I'm thinking of you, Leon Smith and friends.


Yes, because DAMN would he have been a fine college student. If someone can play at age 18 or 19 then they should take that opportunity instead of serving as a funnel for money to the NCAA.

BTW Shawn Livingston is a fine player, a tall point guard with skills. Probably better than some of the crap at the end of benches like, maybe the Bulls. So maybe he SHOULD get a chance to play while some of the bench rot can settle down to "enjoy" what their college experience game them, ha ha.

(edited by Eddie Famous on 1.3.04 2056)


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KingKyle
Pinkelwurst








Since: 24.4.02
From: Illinois

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#16 Posted on
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    Well, the reason that the NBA is suffering is Michael Jordan. (stick with me on this one)

    Mike came out, and the NBA was starting to need another superstar. Magic was in the latter days of his career, Bird and the Celtics were waning, and Mike became the NBAs answer to everything. They hyped the shit out of him, and the Bulls, and everything he did was WORSHIPED by anybody on TV. So, what does the young player learn? Its all about dunking. True, Jordan was terrific on the Defensive side of the ball, but that isn't going to get you a Sportscenter Top Ten Nomination (another thing I absolutely HATE). So, a generation of children grow up swinging from the jock of Jordan and figure all they have to do is drive to the lane, push off, and dunk. THIS is what ruined the fundamentals of Basketball. NOT drafting high school kids. The figure into the equation that every time the game was in the final 4 minutes, if anybody BREATHED near Jordan, a foul was called. He knew it, so in clutch time, he gets the ball, and drives, knowing a CHARGE will never get called. And, he could throw up any piece of shit shot when he got blocked out, and knew he would be going to the line for two (or one, if it fell). This, along with the stupid fucking little "jump step" that they allow has ruined the fundamental teachings of basketball. Look at the historically strong programs over the past 20 years, and what names come to mind? Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and maybe even Indiana. Now, how many SUPERSTARS (other than Jordan and Worthy who were great in college) came from those schools? NONE. Yet, they were successfully because their coaches stressed fundamentally sound basketball. In the end, Jordan retires, and a bunch of Jordan wannabes cant take up the slack. So, the next logical step? Draft players from Europe. They usually are more fundamentally sound than your average 4 year college player, and understand TEAMWORK. My favorite NBA player right now is Pau Gasol. He is a tremendous player, who gets NO press, because he plays in Memphis. The NBA decided 15 or so years ago that its marketing was more important than its actually quality of the game. THATS where they went wrong.

    (edited by StaggerLee on 1.3.04 0631)


Not to say your wrong or anything, but in the latter of his career (I don't quite consider the Wizards part of his career..we'll just leave that portion alone), but during his prime he wasn't just dunking all over the place. The near unstoppable turn around jumper, the ability to hit a three when needed, and things of that nature. Just don't call Jordan a dunker, he was much more than that and you should know that too.

Now as to all the hype and the NBA Machine behind him. Yep. Agree with you there, can't really argue with that. Referees really don't want to be the one that makes the "bad call" that costs the beloved leagues Champion a game, so I'm damn sure they were hesitant to call a charge if there ever was a need to call it.

Why the NBA sucks today:

1. Zone Defense: Ugh, come on. If I want to see people standing around, and a ball being passed in a half circle for 24 seconds, I'd watch the Globetrotters. Players no longer need to be complete, if a player sucks on defense, let's just stick'em in a zone. Yeah! That'll fix it!

2. No Hand Checking: Hurts the guards the most. Get rid of that and you might see even more craftier play from the guards and better defense too.

3. Jump Step: I think if you get rid of Zone Defense, no one will need to do the jump step, as they would no longer need to jump in the lane as much, since the lane won't be as crowded like it is during a zone defense.

4. No More Rivalries: It's not about rivalries anymore, players don't "stick" to a team and try to bring that team up anymore. Barring guys like Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett, it doesn't seem anyone wants to build their team. They want to win now *gms, coaches, players included*. Let us not forget that the Bulls sucked it big time when Jordan first arrived. So if for example McGrady and his Magic get eliminated in a very physical playoff against, let's say Boston (stop laughing). Next year, McGrady or Pierce might not even be on the same team. There is just no rivalry like there was between the Lakers and Celtics of 80's, Knicks and Bulls of the 90s, Detroit and Chicago, Utah and Chicago. It's just not their anymore because the person who may personify that team may no longer be there the next year.

Other than that, I think the game is fine. Still exciting, especially the fast break, but I think if you eliminate these rules than it'll make it almost watchable again.





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Big Bad
Scrapple








Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.54
The Kings and the Lakers are a pretty hot rivalry right now. In fact, the whole West is basically everyone vs. Los Angeles.



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MH: What’s a clever way to say that I have a penis?
CJ: Uh…Mark, nobody’s going to buy that shirt.
MH: How about if I say that I’ve got…a…uh…?
CJ: Coming up with T-Shirt ideas is hard Mark, why not leave it to the WWE marketing department.
MH: I know! I’ve got it!
CJ: Got what?
MH: Stank! That’s Mah Stank! I’m gonna make a fortune!!
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KingKyle
Pinkelwurst








Since: 24.4.02
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#18 Posted on
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    The Kings and the Lakers are a pretty hot rivalry right now. In fact, the whole West is basically everyone vs. Los Angeles.


I'd say Sac vs LA is pretty much the only real rivalry right now. I'm speaking of rivalries where each team might actually hate the other team, Sac and LA seems to be the only two clubs who seem to have that. But I could be wrong.



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Quezzy
Knackwurst








Since: 6.1.02
From: The Moon

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.79
Chicago and Utah had a rivalry? I missed that one.

As most things in the NBA, the rivalries are better in the West. The Kings and Lakers of course being the one great feud. I think Dallas and San Antonio was starting to become a rivalry being the other half of the Big Four, Now Minnesota has emerged and one of those other teams might not be one of the Big Four anymore. But I think San Antonio vs. Dallas or San Antonio vs. Minnesota could start a good rivalry. And there's also Dallas and Houston now that Houston is on the rise. So the West has one great feud, and they could have a couple of more on the way. Especially after this year's playoffs the semis and the finals of the Western Conference should be VERY competitive and could cause some bad blood. And like Kyle said, it's important for players to stay on teams. The Lakers will always have Shaq (maybe not Kobe anymore). The Spurs will always have Duncan, although the other members could change. The Kings have kept the core of their team for a while. Same for the Mavericks, sure Cuban likes to make moves but it seems he's not going to change the Nowitzki, Finely, and Nash core. And hopefully the Twolves will keep their current team together for as long as they can.

I don't know about the East, Kidd going back to New Jersey showed that somebody in the East is loyal to his team, but there's not really anybody for them to have a rivalry with. I hate to say it but I think it's better for the NBA if the Knicks can continue their rise. I'm sure they can find a rival with New Jersey or Indiana.



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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
I agree that it's gotten out of control with NBA players drafting younger and younger players. It's making it more difficult for college teams to improve when the guy you're recruiting might decide to jump to the NBA instead of joining your program. And I understand that's gonna be massively frustrating. I'm speaking as an I.U. fan, trying to look forward to next year's incredible recruiting class while trying very hard not to think about this dreadful season.

But I'm also a Pacers fan, and I'm looking at guys on our team like Jermaine O'Neal and Al Harrington (not so much Johnathan Bender, though he's been getting better) and I'm thinking that the argument that “playing college basketball will help better prepare kids for the NBA” doesn't really carry much water. I mean, those two guys alone can start for any team in the NBA, and I truly believe that JO is on his way to a possible Hall of Fame career.

The argument gets even more one-sided when I look at guys like Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett. These two, who never suited up for a college basketball team, have been legitimate MVP candidates every year for some time now. I wouldn't be surprised, as a matter of fact, if KG did win the MVP this year.

Granted, it took a few years for Jermaine, Al, Kobe and Kevin to get to the level of play they're at right now. But then there's LeBron James, who came into the NBA with very high expectations-- and has already become an NBA superstar in his rookie year, unlike any of the aforementioned guys.

I hear a lot of people decrying the fact that the NBA is looking at all these high school players, but who wouldn't want a starting five of Al Harrington and Kevin Garnett at forward, Jermaine O'Neal at center, and Kobe Bryant and LeBron James at guard?

So, my question is this: What's the solution? Should there be an age limit for the NBA Draft? And if so, how could it possibly be enforced, judging by the recent Maurice Clarett case ruling against the NFL?

And if there's no age limit, again looking at the High School Starting Five, what's the incentive for NBA teams to not scout high-school players?

I think that high school players who want to declare for the draft should be smart enough not to hire an agent unless they're drafted. That way, if their name isn't called, they can still go to college and play ball there. If they hire an agent, NCAA regulations prohibit them from playing at the college level, and they're screwed.



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